Frodo: the hero?

[AirforceBrat]

I just want to know if you think that the movie will have Gollum destroying the Ring when Frodo can't or that Frodo will be all hero like and waltz into Mordor and drop the Ring into the Cracks of Doom without a care in the world. obviously I think Frodo shouldn't be heroish, JRRT had a reason for Frodo not being able to we shouldn't change that.

but anyway what do you thionk?

[Phee]

I don't think anyone could honestly believe they'd have the ring destroyed by anyone other than Gollum. There's been some debate as to whether Gollum will "fall" or "jump", but there's no way either Frodo or Sam would be the ones to destroy it, that's just nuts! I'm sure even the most ardent NPW would still have enough faith in PJ to know he wouldn't change that. ;)

[mirkwoodwarrior]

I'm guessing that they'll keep it the same as the book. It would just be all messed up any other way. Sorry, but it would.

[Talimon]

Yeah, I believe the main debate is whether Gollum will fall or sacrifice himself. Personally I'd prefer the latter. It doesn't deminish, in my eyes, any serious theme from the book, and would make Gollums tale much more tragic. Note that him jumping in wouldn't make him "good". By jumping in he'd be affirming the fact that "he hates and loves the Ring, just as he hates and loves himself." Suicide is not a noble act. But in that particular case it would make Gollums whole trial much more emotional. As PRH pointed out in another thread, there is something almost "clumsy" about Gollum just falling in by chance.

[Hadhafang]

Yeah, I believe the main debate is whether Gollum will fall or sacrifice himself. Personally I'd prefer the latter.

I have to admit when I read the book I was hoping that Gollum would have voluntarily destroyed the ring. He should have whithered upon its destruction. I agree that this would have been more powerful. Perhaps Jackson will do something like that. However, I love conversion from evil to good stories so my opinion may be a bit skewed.
I think in the end PJ will stay more true to Tolkien in this film. He already stated that the TTT deviated from the book further than any of the other films. My vote: Gollum slips with ring in hand and falls!

[Mirabella]

I think PJ will stick with the book on this one. He will more than likely add his own special touches to the fight between Frodo and Sam--Frodo goes over the edge with Gollum, Sam screaming '"Noooooooooo!"--but it will basically be what happened in the book.

[FoolOfATook]

Gollum CAN'T sacrifice himself. His loyalty is only to the Ring, he couldn't care less about the future of Middle-earth, or even the Hobbits. Think about it, he's just bitten Frodo's finger off. After doing that, why would he suddenly become selfless? No one, especially a wicked, traitorous, murderous and utterly and completely selfish, in the worst possible sense of the term, character like Gollum.

[Talimon]

It wouldn't necessarily be "sacrifice". It would be hate. Hate of himself. Hate of the world. Hate of Sauron. Hate of the ring. And maybe, just maybe, a touch of pity towards Frodo. For me, having him slip in just seems too clumsy.

[Valawen]

Originally posted by Talimon
It wouldn't necessarily be "sacrifice". It would be hate. Hate of himself. Hate of the world. Hate of Sauron. Hate of the ring. And maybe, just maybe, a touch of pity towards Frodo. For me, having him slip in just seems too clumsy.

What he said. :)

It's definitely more interesting this way. Just sticking too closely to the book doesn't translate well into film.

[LordOfMoria]

i think PJ will keep the ending exactly like the book did, well not the ending, the destroying of the ring, cause it is such a crutial moment, it can not possible be hindered

[lotrobsession4]

He better keep it the same! I don't think he would change the ending. I agree he'll prolly play around with it and change some minor stuff but i think definately gollum will fall in with the ring just like he did in the book. at least i hope its this way!!!

[FoolOfATook]

It's definitely more interesting this way. Just sticking too closely to the book doesn't translate well into film.

Just out of curiosity, why do you spend time at a Tolkien forum if you have so little respect for the author or his powers as a storyteller?

[Valawen]

Originally posted by FoolOfATook
Just out of curiosity, why do you spend time at a Tolkien forum if you have so little respect for the author or his powers as a storyteller?

What I said means "so little respect for the author or his powers as a storyteller?" Maybe I said it wrong. English is not my first language. I'm sorry if you misunderstood.

That said, I was just bringing up the matter of book-to-movie transition. Books and films are two different media, each with its own advantages and limitations. When I read the ending in the book, I have my imagination to help me picture the scene and figure out why. It doesn't really bother me when I read that Gollum just falls into the fires because I can assign several interpretations to that. In the movie, very little is left to the imagination. IMHO, the whys and hows *have* to be shown or else a scene will fall flat. The scene depends much on which interpretation the writer/director deems will come across well on screen but will still lie close to the vision of the original work. Much as I love the books, I was hoping PJ would add some kind of complex element into Gollum falling off the cliff. Maybe a motive, a reflex, a feeling, or a choice. As I said, it's more interesting that way (for me, at least).

Do you really need me to explain this?

[Hadhafang]

Just out of curiosity, why do you spend time at a Tolkien forum if you have so little respect for the author or his powers as a storyteller?

I don't think there is anything wrong in criticizing some parts of an author's work that you otherwise admire. Tolkien was a genius. That doesn't mean that everything he set to paper was perfect. You don't have to "love it or leave it."

[FoolOfATook]

. Much as I love the books, I was hoping PJ would add some kind of complex element into Gollum falling off the cliff. Maybe a motive, a reflex, a feeling, or a choice. As I said, it's more interesting that way (for me, at least).

Why? I've never found Gollum's fate to be unsatisfactory- in fact, I don't see a better way to end the book, given the build up, the fact that it is acknowledged several times that forces much more powerful than a derganged, murderous little shell of a hobbit are involved. Gollum's been reduced to a sheer beast, acting on pure instinct and addiction at this point- having him make any sort of concious decision would be simply wrong within the narrative.

Added note: I just was thinking about what I said, and while I'm not going to delete either of my rather "aggressive" posts in this thread, I realize that I probably came off far more antagonistic and patronizing than I intended, and apologize to anyone who read them as such.

[MacAddict]

As much as i'd hate it the "Sam destroys the Ring" may not be to far out of question. As ridiculos as it sounds, in my opinion, all through FOTR and TTT (note: the movies) it to me seems like they are making Sam the sortof Lead charactor. His speech in TTT, the rememorable quotes, stuff like that. Watch for it, unless its just me (which it prolly is;) ) Sam seems to be having the more promenate role and could very well destroy the ring for some wierd reason. Am i right in thinking this? or am i insane:D . ;)


~MacAddict

[33Peregrin]

Well, all I can say is that if PJ changes this scene in any way, I will be burning the movies. Actually, probably not, but...... This scene cannot be changed! And how could it? I know PJ has done some crazy things, but it never even crossed my mind that he would change this part. This is the biggest part of the whole story, all of the ideas that the entire story creates leads up to this one thing. It can't be changed! I never even thought that it might. Don't scare me.

[Valawen]

Originally posted by FoolOfATook

[...] I realize that I probably came off far more antagonistic and patronizing than I intended, and apologize to anyone who read them as such.

It's okay. I was never that offended... much. :D

Well, about Gollum/Smeagol making a conscious decision in the Cracks of Doom, I thought it was plausible because PJ granted his Gollum/Smeagol with something resembling morality or conscience, given that hilarious schizophrenic episode in TTT ("...Leave now and never come back!"). And while Sam made his wonderful speech after Frodo had his confrontation with the Nazgul in Gondor, Gollum/Smeagol seemed sympathetic (<-- open to interpretation). He was kind of devious when they were finally on their way to Mordor but that's just Gollum speaking.

[FoolOfATook]

Tolkien's Gollum still had some semblence of a concience, but he chose to ignore it. And Gollum only seemed sympathetic at the end of Jackson's Two Towers if you haven't read Tolkien's Two Towers, and therefore know exactly where the little monster is leading Sam and Frodo.

[Valawen]

It wouldn't bother me if "the little monster" did manage to muster up some semblance of conscience right at the end. I'm growing fond of him, that's all. But I draw the line at Sam throwing in the ring. THAT would be sacrilegious. *shudder*

[FoolOfATook]

It wouldn't bother me if "the little monster" did manage to muster up some semblance of conscience right at the end. I'm growing fond of him, that's all.

Not to pick on you specifically, but this is a phenomenon that I just don't get. I mean, after The Hobbit, how could anyone approach Gollum without disdain? After he's described in FOTR as a "blood-drinking ghost" who "haunts Mirkwood"? After Gandalf admits to Frodo that Gollum deserves death? After we learn that he got the Ring by murdering his kinsman? After he coldheartedly leads Sam and Frodo to what should have been a certain and painful death at Shelob? I know that Gandalf did a lot of preaching about pitying Gollum, but still, I don't see anyone pitying any of the other villains of LOTR (and make no mistake, Gollum IS a villain).

This is just another in a series of rants about Gollum that I've been engaging in since the movie came out. Hoom....

[Grond]

Originally posted by Talimon
Yeah, I believe the main debate is whether Gollum will fall or sacrifice himself. Personally I'd prefer the latter. It doesn't deminish, in my eyes, any serious theme from the book, and would make Gollums tale much more tragic. Note that him jumping in wouldn't make him "good". By jumping in he'd be affirming the fact that "he hates and loves the Ring, just as he hates and loves himself." Suicide is not a noble act. But in that particular case it would make Gollums whole trial much more emotional. As PRH pointed out in another thread, there is something almost "clumsy" about Gollum just falling in by chance. Talimon, making Gollum "sacrifce" himself is totally opposite from the book. Tolkien has painted Gollum as a despicable character who fails in his "desire" to return to good... just as Frodo fails in the end in his "desire" to destroy the Ring. It is the ultimate irony that Evil does Good's deed that makes the climax what it is. If PJ has Gollum end up sacrificing himself in the end... he diminishes the entire story which has sought to impress upon everyone the "horrendously evil power" of the One Ring. PJ will have a mere mortal "winning out" and mastering his desire for the Ring.

Out of character, out of plot, out of everything. Talimon... (I hope) you don't really believe what you've posted. If you do, you need to go back and reread the books again and most assuredly take a look at the Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien concerning his thoughts on this very issue and his vision of the main message of the books. (Views from a nit-picking weenie.)

This conclusion to the film would completely undermine all of the plots/sub-plots that the author sought to drive home.

[Grond]

Originally posted by FoolOfATook
Just out of curiosity, why do you spend time at a Tolkien forum if you have so little respect for the author or his powers as a storyteller? Actually, we welcome all the movie fans whether they are book fans or not. One must remember that we are in the movie forum and this is the very place for movie fans to come. It gives us the opportunity to "direct" them to the books (if they haven't read them) and to help explain (as best as our meager minds can) the books themes to them and answer their questions.

Our goal here is to create a wonderful Tolkien community which will encompass both book fans and movies fans and those of us who are both. One can see the movie as great cinema and a pathetic adaptation. That is definately where I fit into the scheme of things.

[Grond]

Originally posted by Valawen
It wouldn't bother me if "the little monster" did manage to muster up some semblance of conscience right at the end. I'm growing fond of him, that's all. But I draw the line at Sam throwing in the ring. THAT would be sacrilegious. *shudder* Why?? Sam is good and was never "corrupted" by the Ring as were both Gollum and Frodo. If you're going to make a "sacrilegious" change in the script... at least make one that is believeable. Samwise was ever loyal and faithful and was the least of the three effected by the Ring. If you're going to make the change... it would have to be Samwise who casts it into Mount Doom.

[Valawen]

Originally posted by Grond
Why?? Sam is good and was never "corrupted" by the Ring as were both Gollum and Frodo. If you're going to make a "sacrilegious" change in the script... at least make one that is believeable. Samwise was ever loyal and faithful and was the least of the three effected by the Ring. If you're going to make the change... it would have to be Samwise who casts it into Mount Doom.

If I hadn't read the book, making Sam throw in the ring (in the movie) would be fine, and even logical. As it is, most of the people I know who haven't read the book see the films as quite spectacular while those who did read it quite enjoyed watching them but were mildly bothered by the changes. The idea of having the climactic(sp?) scene changed _drastically_ is traumatic.

[Valawen]

Originally posted by FoolOfATook
Not to pick on you specifically, but this is a phenomenon that I just don't get. I mean, after The Hobbit, how could anyone approach Gollum without disdain? After he's described in FOTR as a "blood-drinking ghost" who "haunts Mirkwood"? After Gandalf admits to Frodo that Gollum deserves death? After we learn that he got the Ring by murdering his kinsman? After he coldheartedly leads Sam and Frodo to what should have been a certain and painful death at Shelob? I know that Gandalf did a lot of preaching about pitying Gollum, but still, I don't see anyone pitying any of the other villains of LOTR (and make no mistake, Gollum IS a villain).

This is just another in a series of rants about Gollum that I've been engaging in since the movie came out. Hoom....

Heh. Some of us just can't resist the little crazy rascal, especially after he hunted a couple of rabbits and dropped them on Frodo's lap like a dog. Such a sweetie. Also, he looks so pathetic that my heart bled for him. Granted he is quite despicable in the book. Magic of CGI, I guess. :D

[MacAddict]

Originally posted by Valawen
If I hadn't read the book, making Sam throw in the ring (in the movie) would be fine, and even logical. As it is, most of the people I know who haven't read the book see the films as quite spectacular while those who did read it quite enjoyed watching them but were mildly bothered by the changes. Thats my point exactly! While PJ DOES think about the fans's opinions (i hope), He does have the power to do this evil thing I just hope he won't BUT it would make sense to "other" people if he did.


~MacAddict

Note: Me and ElfGore (C496) will take care of PJ if this comes to pass.

[Daniel]

I think they'll keep with the book on this one. There really isn't any need to do it differently than the book, so I voted for the book option--Gollum falls into the fire when Frodo doesn't destroy the Ring.

[balrog]

Gollum will most definately be the one responsible for the eventual destruction of the ring in my opinion.

I'd like to see Gollum survive though, poor little guy!:(

[FoolOfATook]

poor little guy!

I really hope that you feel this kind of sympathy towards Deagol.

[balrog]

Originally posted by FoolOfATook
I really hope that you feel this kind of sympathy towards Deagol.

true enough!

sympathy shpuld be given where it is deserved!