Reference - Tolkien's inspirations

[Finduilas]

In a lot of threads there are posts which consider the origin of ,for example,the lotr,the Sil and what are they related to.I think this should be gathered in a whole -this thread-where all resources members can find or think about will be posted.
This will not only help us learn a lot and rerealize the works of Tolkien but will also help young and future writers and poets think more seriously about aesthetics.
So ,here can be posted materials for every work of our 'godfather' which are based on the idea of finding the real inspiration for evry part of his masterpieces(because I believe you agree that everything written by him is incredible,due to his talent and knowledge as well).
Soon I'll be ready to post my material but until then - feel as at home,please.:)
So I think the main resources are :
-the Bible,of course
-myths and legends
-fairy tales
-History
-reality
-and so long and so long...
Please,continue:)

[Anamatar IV]

I once read a legend about a Golem:

a jewish monster was once a slave. A twisted deformed being called a Golem. This golem was a total mindless slave to his master.

Gollum was a twisted and mindless slave to the Ring.

I also read a legend of Hai-uru:

In Africa there was a monster called Hai-uru. This monster hunted human prey

In Lord of the Rings the Uruk-hai said something along the lines of "Saruman gives us man flesh to eat."

[Anamatar IV]

Or maybe I am the only one who found any of this out???:confused:

Tolkien used many real languages to come up with phrases and terms in other languages of Middle-earth (like Khazad ai-menu that Gimli yells in Helm's Deep is from the Hebrew word of amenua which means 'our people' unless my Hebrew fails me;))

[Lhunithiliel]

I have read that the tale "Beowulf" had a great influence on Tolkien's writings.
A few days ago, if you have heard, someone had found an undiscovered before handwriting of the Professor - a translation of "Beoulf" that had never before been published!

Some time ago I downloaded the tale and I have it in my PC, but GOD!!!!, I wish I had a month totally free in order to read it and the other tales that I have! :D...... like "Kalevala", "King Arthur"... These are said to have influenced Tolkien's story!

[Gil-Galad]

Atlantis=Numenor.
I think there are lots of common things between the legend about Atlantis and Numenor.First of all I should say that progress caused the destruction of both of them.I mean progress because ot their desire to live better and easier,to be immortal(in Numenorian's case)
I must confess Tolkiens "legend"is much more interesting than that of Atlantis.

[Húrin Thalion]

I think that he was much influenced by the writings of C.S. Lewis and vice versa, all the inklings must have some part in his glory. Also T.C.B.S. Tea club and Barrovian society, his literary teaclub must have had some influence. The first world war perhaps, as he wrote to his son that: It was in the muddy pit of war that I first wrote the H in the "History of the Gnomes" (The Silmarillion) (Gnomes=Noldor)

Húrin Thalion

[Gil-Galad]

QUOTE]Originally posted by Húrin Thalion
I think that he was much influenced by the writings of C.S. Lewis and vice versa, all the inklings must have some part in his glory. Also T.C.B.S. Tea club and Barrovian society, his literary teaclub must have had some influence. The first world war perhaps, as he wrote to his son that: It was in the muddy pit of war that I first wrote the H in the "History of the Gnomes" (The Silmarillion) (Gnomes=Noldor)

Húrin Thalion [/QUOTE]
Yeah,Tolkien was a very good friend of C.S.Lewis.

[Melian]

I've said this before...Toth and Eru are almost equal(consider the myth of world creation).
Btw,this thread is very useful for my lecture which basically deals with Tolkien's sources of inspiration in mythology.

[FoolOfATook]

Brothers and sisters of the Guild,
This week, cut off from my home internet connection and therefore given a blessed, however brief, escape from the current anarchy that is the ranking tests, I've had a chance to begin studying an aspect of Tolkien that has always interested me, although little-discussed in these forums. Tolkien's inspirations.
I've decided to finally go about reading the works that Tolkien mentions in his letters, and in his lecture "On Fairy Stories", as well as those that Tolkienists such as Tom Shippey and Douglas A. Anderson have cited as "sources" of Tolkien's work.

As I thought about it more, it occured to me that this might be something of interest to others, and with this in mind, I propose to form a sort of a study group/book club, in which the members read books of interest to this matter, and come together to discuss the works themselves, and elements of the work that we can recognize in some form in the works of Tolkien.

Proposed reading list:
Beowulf
Sir Gawain and the Green Knight
The Kalevala
The Prose Edda
The Elder Edda
The Red Fairy Book, by Andrew Lang
The Marvelous Land of the Snergs
The Princess and the Goblin, by George MacDonald
Song of the Volsungs and the Nibelungs, William Morris trans.
Several other works that I've jotted down in my notes, but can't remember off the top of my head.

Anyway, if anyone is interested in something like this, an informal, loosely structured group interested in learning about this side of Tolkien, let me know. I doubt that it would start in the next few weeks, but once I've finished the current testings, I see no reason not to begin.

[Finduilas]

OK, how about 'Roverandom'? It's the only book not related to ME I've read by Tolkien (and that has been published in Bulgarian) and it would be a pity if it is not included.

[FoolOfATook]

Why not? I haven't read it yet, and I have been looking for an excuse to buy a copy. ;)

[Beleg]

I think i will start reading the Princess and The Goblin, since it is avalable to me. but it will take some time for me to finish the book and much more to study and comprehend all Tolkien related aspects of the Book.

[Lhunithiliel]

I have read about these things before....So I thought it would be wonderful to read those sources.... But ...you know...I am afraid of sth...... And what if I read all these books (some I do have) and I then start to think that the magic of Tolkien is ... sort of "borrowed".... I just am afraid to "kill" the magic of Middle-earth....

Well, maybe it's because Tolkien is so new to me. I am "dying" to read Beowulf, the Kalevala, the Edda... ! I AM, believe me!
But.... are you sure I won't lose the "magic"? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :eek:

[Beleg]

Awwww Lhun how can one resist the charms of the Great Professor!!!! :( Believe Me, Intrest in Tolkien will never leave you!

[FoolOfATook]

Lhun, let me put it this way- do you think that our beloved Tolkien would want us not to read the works that he proffessed to love so deeply out of fear of enjoying his own works less? I don't believe so. I think that Tolkien's work is so uniquely his own, that learning all we can about his own inspirations wouldn't violate Gandalf's warning that "breaking something to discover how it works leaves the path of wisdom." ;)

[MATTMAN]

I would love to read any of these. Just decide and I will go and buy a copy and delve into it. Lets get started! AHHHHHHHHH

[FoolOfATook]

I would love to read any of these. Just decide and I will go and buy a copy and delve into it. Lets get started! AHHHHHHHHH

Wow. Now THAT is enthusiasm. I plan on trying to get this particular endeavour up and running once I've gotten through more of the testing. However, I have decided on the first book to do- Tolkien's translation of the classic tale of honour and Camelot, written by the mysterious and unknown "Pearl Poet"-

Sir Gawain and the Green Knight.

I've decided to start with Gawain for a few key reasons; since it's a work that is directly connected to Tolkien, I think that it will provide us with a very solid jumping off point for the rest of the works I mentioned, and it's the only work on the list that I've ever encountered in an academic setting (Thank you Dr. Hester!), so that will reduce the amount of preparation time for me and give me a bit of a well-lit path, before I lead the rest of the group merrily off into uncharted territory. It's also a relatively short work (well, compared to the Kalevla or the Eddas ;)), it's a work that I expect more people to be familiar with than almost any other on our list, and I think that we'll be able to pick up relationships between the poem and Tolkien's Middle-earth works fairly easily. And last, but certainly not least, it's available in an inexpensive paperback edition, and shouldn't be hard to track down in most bookstores of any merit.

Hoom, I've gone on for longer than I meant to, but hey- I think that Mattman's excitement might have rubbed off a bit on me. ;)

[MATTMAN]

I know I that I seem very excited. Well I am. I love to read and discus books with others. I just bought my copy and have started to read it as well. I look forward to a very profound experiance.:D

[jallan]

Here are useful links: Beowulf (http://www.lone-star.net/literature/beowulf/beowulf.html)
Sir Gawain and the Green Knight (http://www.luminarium.org/medlit/gawain.htm)
The Kalevala (http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/kveng/index.htm)
The Prose Edda (http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/index.htm)
The Poetic Edda (http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/index.htm)
The Red Fairy Book by Andrew Lang (http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/LanRedF.html)
The Princess and the Goblin by George MacDonald (http://www.pagebypagebooks.com/George_MacDonald/The_Princess_and_the_Goblin/)
The Princess and Curdie by George MacDonald (http://www.pagebypagebooks.com/George_MacDonald/The_Princess_and_Curdie)
The Story of the Volsungs and Nibelungs translated by Eiríkr Magnússon and William Morris (http://www.bartleby.com/49/4/)
The House of the Wolfings by William Morris (http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/m/m87hw)

[Finduilas]

OK, I visited the site about Sir Gawain and it turned out that the text is written in some other language. What is it?:confused:

Anyway, jallan, you are great. Thank you so much for the links.;)

[jallan]

That Gawain site contains under “Sir Gawain and the Green Knight – Texts’' five links to texts elsewhere on the web.

Three of the links are to sites containing the J.R.R. Tolkien and E.V. Gordon edition of the original Middle English text.

The language is Middle English.

But the following two links are to modern English translations, one in verse and one in prose.

[gilgalad]

Just thought i'd point out that when i read The Odyssey by Homer a few months ago, i was struck by the amount of things that seem to have been echoed in Tolkien's ME books. I can't remember any particular examples off the top of my head but i would say that this book definately influenced Tolkien.

[Finduilas]

I just want to ask- who's the uathor of those works above?
I guess it's not Tolkien, is it?:confused:

[FoolOfATook]

I just want to ask- who's the uathor of those works above?

Finduilas- None of the works that I listed, and jallan so helpfully posted links to e-texts of, were written by our beloved Tolkien, although he did do the translation of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight that I want to start with. However, they are all works that Tolkien mentioned as works that had influenced him as a story-teller.

I'll try to make some time this week to work on Sir Gawain, so hopefully we can begin discussing it next week. As to where we go from there, if there's a specific work that I listed that you are particularily interested in, let me know, and we can do that one next.

[Mrs. Maggott]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
I have read about these things before....So I thought it would be wonderful to read those sources.... But ...you know...I am afraid of sth...... And what if I read all these books (some I do have) and I then start to think that the magic of Tolkien is ... sort of "borrowed".... I just am afraid to "kill" the magic of Middle-earth....

Well, maybe it's because Tolkien is so new to me. I am "dying" to read Beowulf, the Kalevala, the Edda... ! I AM, believe me!
But.... are you sure I won't lose the "magic"? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :eek:
That is like saying that the air Tolkien breathed was "borrowed". He believed that the "magic" with which he endowed his creation was a well-spring from which other authors - ancient and modern (and let's not forget Homer with his journeying Odysseus) - also drew for their myths. In short, it is a part of the "natural" world of man's imagination available for anyone with vision to tap.

We of these latter days were fortunate that there was one great story teller still living among us and we have been priviledged to read his creation which he drew from this great well of myth and magic.

[Beleg]

if someone says that what Tolkien created himself wasn't a mythology, not even legend-- for legends are based on Histories. That Tolkien just collected the Different Mythologies and bundled them togather-placing them in one plot. That his works can't be called parts of mythology just because they have been a heiracy? I dont think so that the thought That what Tolkien created himself wasn't entirely original is true. I feel that Tolkien created a plot, which definately had to be inspired by things he read or heard about, and i think every mystery is inter-related, it has something in common. Tolkien loved those tales, and studied them critically and deeply and his writing would definately had been influenced by them.
To me Myths are things that force me to think about them in Real life. And Tolkein certainly does that. The special feel you are talking 'bout.
I really think what he created has the means and power to be called a mythology, if not literary but symbolically.

[Lhunithiliel]

I read Beowulf.
It was so hard to understand this old language!
Yet, a fascinating story!
And....NO! The "magic" has not suffered! ;)

Could I ask for some help here?
It must be because of the language....but I wonder what people were the "Geats"?
*****
BTW, I wonder why my words were understood as if I am of an opinion that Tolkien had acted only as a "collector" of old tales and had put them together in his writings...
I CERTAINLY don't have this in mind!
I love his writings and I think he is a great writer!

[Beleg]

*BTW, I wonder why my words were understood as if I am of an opinion that Tolkien had acted only as a "collector" of old tales and had put them together in his writings...
I CERTAINLY don't have this in mind!
I love his writings and I think he is a great writer!*

Well all think that!:D I think reading Beauwolf is difficult. very difficult. My Mother is also an English Litrature professor and even she finds it difficult to read and understand it.

[jallan]

Who the Geats in Beowulf were is not provable.

The most common belief is that they were a people who lived in what is now southern Sweden, called the Gauti by Ptolemy, called Gutae or Gautae in Latin, and Götar in Icelandic.

They are identified with Jutes or Goths in some sources, but probably wrongly (unless we consider the possiblity that two or three of these were the same people in very early times indeed).

See Redundant Ethnogenesis in Beowulf (http://www.mun.ca/mst/heroicage/issues/5/Davis1.html#anchor236428) for a discussion.

Beleg_strongbow posted:Well all think that! I think reading Beauwolf is difficult. very difficult. My Mother is also an English Litrature professor and even she finds it difficult to read and understand it.The Old English in which Beowulf was written is sufficiently different from Modern English to count as a different language entirely.

However there are many modern translations, in verse and prose, a number of them available on the web. Tolkien’s own translation is supposed to released soon.

Search for [beowulf translation] in a good search engine like Google and find one that suits you.

The story itself is not particularly difficult, other than that the author naturally assumes knowledge that most readers today don’t have, so references to events in other tales which should be evocative are instead confusing and puzzling to the modern reader.

But Hrothwulf, who is co-king for the Danes with Hrothgar in the poem, was the most famous of the Danish legendary kings, comparable to King Arthur or Charlemagne.

A summary of this legend cycle appears in The Danish History by Saxo Grammaticus (http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/DanishHistory/), though in later and variant form with some obvious errors and confusions.

In Book I (http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/DanishHistory/book1.html) we find Scyld under the name Skiold, and possibly Heremod as Lother and the elder Beowulf as Gram.

Book II (http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/DanishHistory/book2.html) contains the main stories about Hrothgar and Hrothwulf. Search in this page for Halfdan.

The names are in very different form:

Healfdene = Halfdan
Hrothgar = Ro
Halga = Helgi (whom Saxo seems to confuse with Helgi Hundingsbane, a totally different figure in other stories)
Hrothwulf = Rolf
Eadgils = Athisl
Ingeld = Ingild
Heoroweard = Hiartuar

In Book III (http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/DanishHistory/book3.html) is an account of Rrorik who is almost certainly the same as the Hrethric of Beowulf though his reign is misplaced in Saxo’s account.

The story of Ingeld as prophecied by Beowulf appears in Book VI (http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/DanishHistory/book6.html), with Froda named Frode and Ingeld named Ingild.

But in Saxo’s account Ingeld / Ingild lives generations following Hrothgar / Ro and a certain Swerting appears as Froda / Frode's slayer and father of Ingeld / Ingild's bride-to-be in place of Hrothgar / Ro.

Another account of Helga / Helgi and his son Hrothwulf / Hrolf appears in the Icelandic Saga of King Hrolf Kraki. Some excerpts of a translation are available on the web at King Rolf Kraki (http://www.viking.ucla.edu/hrolf/maincontents.html) including the account of the bear-man Bjorn which is certainly part of Tolkien’s inspiration for the charater of Beorn in The Hobbit.

[MATTMAN]

Hey lets stop discusing and lets get started. I believe that we decided on what to read weeks ago, so lets do it.
I am very excited about reading pearls and look forward to hearing others reply.

Lets do it!!!!!!!

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Walter
Beleg: You could take the "easy way" and just see the film with Christopher Lambert... :D
...which can:
1/ >>help a lot because you'll already know the story and reading the difficult language is going to be "easied"
2/>> distract you completely from any reading.... but you are not endagered, Beleg! You're not a woman! ;) :D

[Beleg]

Beleg: You could take the "easy way" and just see the film with Christopher Lambert...

If its anything like LOTR By PJ then i better keep away from it!!


But i found a quiet easier version with presise commentry. I just want time to read it. :(