View Full Version : Challenge Issued!
The Guild of the Periaur would like to challange the Guild of Ost-in-Edhil to a debate.
Because we challenge you, you have the choice of the side of the debate.
The team size shall be determined once I have everything organized (hopefully by tomorrow), and will most likely be 4 or 5.
Nom shall be posting the topic in this thread once she has selected the proper wording.
Several hours ago the Periaur (Pippin_Took, at least) learned what the topic would be, so here it is for all to see.
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LotR appendix B, Later events concerning the members of the Fellowship of the Ring
King Elessar issues an edict that Men are not to enter the Shire, and he makes it a free Land under the protection of the Northern Sceptre.
Is this an unwise move by King Elessar?
****************************
That is, if Ost-in-Edhil accepts the challenge.
Turgon
02-15-2003, 12:34 AM
As the newly appointed guild leader of Ost-in-Edhil - it falls to me to accept this challenge!?! Of course I will need a few days to form a team - but I look forward to debating with the Periaur - we have a score to settle if I remember rightly...;)
Wonko The Sane
02-18-2003, 11:07 AM
And the score will be in our favor I believe. ;)
Rangerdave
02-19-2003, 07:10 AM
I have a question.
Just for clarification, does the topic question infer that An independent Shire is detriment to the Unified Kingdoms of Gondor and Anor Independence from the Unified Kingdom of Gondor and Anor is a detriment to the Shire
Sorry to nit-pick this early into the game, but I think we need to know.
RD
Well Rangerdave, I was thinking that the teams could argue either of those, or even both taken together. Just overall - was it an unwise move, for any reason(s)?
King Elessar issues an edict that Men are not to enter the Shire, and he makes it a free Land under the protection of the Northern Sceptre.
Not only is it made a free land under protection, but Elessar makes it law that men can not enter the Shire. Both should be taken into consideration as one big move by Elessar.
I'm affraid to comment on independence, but let me know if I am still unclear.
Wonko The Sane
02-19-2003, 09:21 AM
Ooh, Nom, just for starters saying "argue either" makes it unclear because there could be confusion.
We should pick for sure to make it a true debate.
One side says it's not a detriment (to whichever) the other says it is.
In order to properly argue each side I think it's important to pick one or the other.
The question asks if this was a wise move by Elessar. In my opinion it is up to the team to decide why it was or was not wise. Wise would be a move that is all around best for everyone.
I suppose I could ask: Was this action best for the hobbits in the long run?
If that doesn't do, then maybe the subject of Elessar's moves should be dropped, and I would suggest Pippin_Took find someone else to come up with a more narrow topic before this turns into a debate. I do not undertstand the problem you guys are seeing with the question. When judging the wisdom of an action all outcomes or potential outcomes should be taken into consideration.
Wonko The Sane
02-19-2003, 10:30 AM
Not necessarily.
In a simple thought discussion all sides should be considered, but in a formal debate as I thought this one was a succint and concrete position must be chosen in order to streamline the arguments and provide a better platform from which the debate may launch.
Yes, this is a formal debate. I suppose I don't know much about them. You guys can skip my topic if you like, it wont break myheart or anything. Surely someone else can come up with something better.
PS: It could have been worse, I could have asked "Was the race of men treated fair throughout history?" ;)
Bethelarien
02-19-2003, 02:41 PM
Can someone clarify exactly what a "formal debate" is?
Turgon
02-19-2003, 04:47 PM
A formal debate? I think it means that biting, scratching, and/or eye-gauging are strictly forbidden. Could be wrong though...:p
For the record the Ost-in-Edhil team will be:
Arvedui
Gothmog
RD
and Turgon.
Gothmog
02-19-2003, 10:18 PM
I wish to say that I am very happy with the question as posed by Nóm. What she has placed before us is nothing more nor less than the very dilema faced by Aragorn when he had to make up his mind about the Shire.
I congratulate her on finding a topic so great in scope yet sharply limited. One decision so many things to think about.
Wonko The Sane
02-19-2003, 10:40 PM
President of her debate team in High School says:
Let's get it on!!!
Ancalagon
02-19-2003, 10:44 PM
Let me extend my warmest best wishes to The Periaur, a truly brave (or foolish, some might say) challenge you have issued.
To my colleagues of 'The Guild of Ost-in-Edhil' I offer you my full support. I will watch this debate unfold with glee, especially under the leadership of our new Guildmaster, The Hidden King;)
Turgon
02-19-2003, 10:47 PM
I agree with Gothmog - a nice open question Nóm - it will be good to debate about the little folk for a change.
OK, we have our team.
Wonko The Sane
TheFool
aragil
and, Pippin_Took
The Guild of Ost-in-Edhil, you may now proceed to open (unless you would like us to.)
legoman
02-20-2003, 04:03 PM
Oh thank Gawd, I don't have to...
bye.
Wonko The Sane
02-20-2003, 11:29 PM
As I've told you, Pip...I'm going to England and I won't be able to post much.
:-/
Turgon
02-20-2003, 11:54 PM
paraphrased from Hamlet
Hamlet: Ay, marry; why was she sent into England?
Gravedigger: Why, because she was mad: she shall recover her wits there, or, if she do not, 't is no great matter there.
Hamlet: Why?
Gravedigger: 'T will not be seen in her there; there the men are all as mad as she.
Sorry Wonko - could resist it... just popped into my head...
If it's okay with everybody we will make our first post tomorrow (Friday). We should be more than ready by then. Presumably the debate will last for a week?
Wonko The Sane
02-21-2003, 12:42 AM
Yes. A week sounds about right.
:) And Turgon, even though you were calling me crazy I LOVE Shakespeare and especially Hamlet and so I am only flattered. :)
*Wonders whether OiE are going to debate on the negative or positive side....*
Wonko The Sane
02-21-2003, 09:06 AM
Soon enough, my hobbit friend.
Soon enough.
At Ancalagon's request, could the OiE open the debate in a seperate thread in the Guild of the Periaur?
Wonko The Sane
02-21-2003, 10:41 AM
Someone PM me when the new thread is opened.
The debate thread is here. (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?postid=252642#post252642)
Elbereth
02-24-2003, 01:01 AM
As guild leader of the Periaur, I am please to see our challange for debate has been accepted. I will be watching the debate with great interest and anticipation.
I also extend my best wishes to the Ost-in-Edhil team, as they are all fine and worthy competitors. However, my full support goes to my fellow Periaur, who I am confident will be a force worth reckoning with.
Wonko The Sane
02-24-2003, 01:43 AM
Don't count your chickens, Elbe!
We haven't responded yet! ;)
Arvedui
02-25-2003, 01:03 PM
*Waiting for the response*
No, nothing yet....
Oh, well:rolleyes:
TheFool
02-25-2003, 01:12 PM
*walks in, staggering under the weight of a 12,000 page declaration complete with dozens of CD-Roms which outline proposals, full complete and accurate* I found this outside, does anyone know whose it is? :D :p
The response is coming, people! Fear not!
TheFool, how many pages have you typed up for this debate now? I have 24, aragil has 19, and I think Wonks has written a 50 page thesis on the topic.;)
Originally posted by TheFool
The response is coming, people! Fear not!
Which team are you speaking to here. :D
TheFool
02-25-2003, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by Pippin_Took
TheFool, how many pages have you typed up
oh, I can sum that up in one word: Pulitzer :D :D ;) ;)
posted by Nóm
which team are you speaking to here
why, to all concerned of course :) .
TheFool, I think we should make up a book out of all the material we have on the topic.
Maybe we could mail it to all the OiE debators :D
What is the weight limit for mail where you live? ;)
TheFool
02-25-2003, 02:28 PM
hehe and when it drops through the letterbox [BAM!] onto the mat, they won't know what hit 'em!
Now, where did I put my stamps? ;)
Hmmm, you old folks should try to get your reply up soon.
You aren't getting any younger....;)
:D :D :D
legoman
02-27-2003, 06:03 PM
Yeah, but we are happy in the thought, we'll never be as old as you guys...
Turgon
02-27-2003, 09:34 PM
Can I request a small suspension of this debate - due to unforeseen circumstances Arvedui has been called away and will not be back until Monday, and I myself have a few pressing commitments. The debate promises to be a good one, with two great opening posts... so can we suspend it until Monday, when both Arvedui and I will be able to give it our undivided attention?
Cheers, Turgon.
Well I restart university on Monday, so I would prefer it to be finished as scheduled.
Maybe a longer debate would be the solution?
TheFool
02-28-2003, 10:44 AM
Anything is fine by me, I have spare time whenever :)
Arvedui
03-03-2003, 12:49 PM
OK, I'm back.
Sorry about making an unforeseen halt in our debate, but it couldn't be helped.
So, does anyone object to the debate lasting for an additional week?
Arvedui
03-03-2003, 01:37 PM
I don't;)
And considering the number of replies so far, I don't see how we have any choice.....
Well I feel that it should be closed, and left pending for a later date.
I think that it's unfair that the OiE have delayed it for so long, and in the process have made it almost impossible for the Periaur to debate.
Wonks has now gone to England, aragil can't debate now because of work, and I can't because of University. We were expecting this debate to have finished by now, so we thought we would be able to contribute.
It's unfair to TheFool that he should have to take on OiE by himself.
Arvedui
03-03-2003, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by Pippin_Took
TheFool, how many pages have you typed up for this debate now? I have 24, aragil has 19, and I think Wonks has written a 50 page thesis on the topic.;)
It sounded as you were more than ready to have a go at us;)
But seriously, I for one understand your problem. The more so since my work was acontribution in halting the debate in the first place. I have no hard feelings against freezing the debate were it stands now, and postpone the debate to a later date when we are all ready.
We'll nail you anyhow...
It's unfair to TheFool that he should have to take on OiE by himself.
That would not be fair.
I think that it's unfair that the OiE have delayed it for so long, and in the process have made it almost impossible for the Periaur to debate.
To be fair Pippin, the OiE took less time to make their first post than the Periaur did to reply to that post. Also, it was unknown by both teams that Arvedui and Turgon would be lost for awhile, and that you Pippin, would not be able to take part after the end of the deadline or that aragil would not show up.
Well I feel that it should be closed, and left pending for a later date.
What do others think about this?
Turgon
03-03-2003, 06:23 PM
I have no problem with the idea Nóm, though I think it's a shame to see such a promising start falter and come to nothing. Once again, apologies to The Periaur for the muddle - which was entirely my fault. Sometimes these things happen. But the OiE are ready to continue this debate at anytime.
Well I feel that it should be closed, and left pending for a later date.
I have no problem with the idea...
Since the teams are in agreement, so it will be.
Both teams have 48 hours from the time of this post to submit in this thread, a team to finish off this debate. The teams can be smaller than 4 if need be. As soon as the teams have been submitted I will post in the debate thread saying that you can continue, and from that moment you will have one week to complete the debate. If one of the Guilds fail to submit a team within 48 hours of this post, they acknowledge defeat and the debate will become open to all forum members.
Ancalagon
03-04-2003, 01:04 AM
Well guys, you can't argue with that;)
Nom, you failed to understand the Periaur's situation.
There is no way that we can organise a team within 48 hours.
We won't be able to fill a team for a couple of weeks now. (At least till Wonks gets back, and I get settled back into Uni)
I think I did understand. That is why I say the teams can be smaller than 4. This is not up for debate, if a guild fails to submit a team, the victory will go to the other guild.
OK, if you seem to be so determined to have us enter a team, we shall.
Our team: TheFool
Arvedui
03-05-2003, 08:13 AM
There is one thing I am wondering about, Pippin_Took. You have been advocating that TheFool would have to debate against OiE on his own. Still, you obviously have had time to post several times since this situation arose. Why can't you then participate in the debate?
Wonko the Sane have been in England for a long time. That was also known before the debate started in the first place. What changes there are relating to her participation, I can't see from where I'm sitting.
And last: I think there are a few more members of the Periaur...
And I read Turgon's post above to the meaning that the OiE field the same team.
Can I get someone from OiE to say for sure what the team will be this time, and specify which will be the members to debate if the team has to be only two or three members?
Periaur,
One member is not a team, can you guys find one more who can take part?
There are a few hours left to do this.
legoman
03-05-2003, 06:07 PM
Nom, you're mean!
p.s. pippin, do NOT get me to debate, I already got confused reading our opening arguement.
And I read Turgon's post above to the meaning that the OiE field the same team.
If I had to I would assume that, but I asked both teams to submit a team within 48 hours, to be clear. I am not sure if what Arvedui says here is a submission or not.
I'm calling this a draw since neither Guild submitted a team after I asked for it, this whole thing became a mess, and I think I have failed a 'debate-person' for lack of better word.
Turgon
03-05-2003, 08:19 PM
Looks like I missed the deadline and then some - but if a draw has been called then a draw has been called - I'd rather have that than have a team win by default.
Had I been on the forum yesterday, I would have suggested seconding myself to the Periaur and holding the debate (just for the hell of it) with The Fool and Myself against Gothmog and Arvedui, which I'm still amenable to if anybody is still interested in the question.
Ancalagon
03-05-2003, 10:17 PM
Hmmm, interesting thought Turgon;) However, as you are Guildmaster of Ost-in-Edhil it would not be practical for you to switch sides for the debate. However, as I am less restricted in terms of leadership.....:D
Turgon
03-05-2003, 10:32 PM
That would be great Anc - and I think you're still a tween in hobbit years - maybe they can give you temporary membership? Would be nice to carry on this debate - no muddle is insurmountable...:)
Well I just woke up and have to admit that this was all mostly my fault, this was a big mistake... the 48 hour deadline was. I am sorry as hell about it, I was in over my head.
If I could do it all over again, I would have just told OiE that the debate could not be put on hold, and that it could be 2 on 2... TheFool and Pippin vs Gothmog and Rangerdave (who I haven't seen around?)... but I messed up. Sorry.
But on the other hand, since I have nothing to lose now: Pippin_Took you still have time to do a lot of posting and spend hours at TTF, so frankly I see what your priorities are not, and how much the tween guild on the whole cared about this thing.
I am furious about this whole thing, and I am not staying around were I am made THIS BIG of an idiot of myself. Surely if the tweens still want, you guys can try this again in the future.
I may be online a fair bit recently, but I honestly haven't felt like debating whilst organising things at uni.
I might be settled down enough at uni by early next week.
So I may be able to contribute, as long as the debate doesn't restart before the 10th.
Turgon
03-06-2003, 07:50 PM
Nóm, I can understand you being furious about this whole thing. But why blame yourself for it? You set a great question and did you damnest to sort things out - where did you make an idiot of yourself? The way is see it, you deserve nothing but praise for trying to make the best of a bad situation. Any blame rightly belongs on my shoulders - and I'm sorry for it. If you feel the need to vent anger upon anybody, then I'm the fellow, but why this talk about leaving? That would be a dark day indeed.
Wonko The Sane
03-06-2003, 08:16 PM
I'll have to admit I'm a little ashamed of us.
Look, Pip...you KNEW my posting would be spotty at most during these next few weeks.
You really should've had back up, or SOMETHING.
And I'm still confused as to why YOU haven't posted.
Here's the thing: The Periaur is showing youthful instability at this time which I admit is a little embarrassing. I was hoping to show a better game face to the illustrious Ost-in-Edhil. Pensioners though they may be (;)) they've been where we are: youth, and they know what it's like.
So granted I think they probably expected something like this.
I would have liked to have proved them wrong.
Arvedui
03-06-2003, 10:22 PM
It seems as if everyone is eager to finish the debate. Why don't we? P_T states that he will probably be able to contribute after the 10th. Would that be OK for the remaining six of you? I mean, its fine by me.
And then we all have the chance to ponder upon the question raised by Nóm. And since we all now which side to defend, we should be able to make it a debate to remember
i think....
Anyone?
Gothmog
03-06-2003, 11:14 PM
I have no problem with that. I would like to have the debate that was intended.
Nom. I would like to know why you think you have made an idiot of yourself. You have done everything in the best way possible. You offered an increase in time and then asked for another team to be posted and therefore you cannot hold yourself responsible.
Surely if the tweens still want, you guys can try this again in the future.
I wasn't refering to the Shire debate which I had said would be open to everyone if the deadline was not met, just saying that you guys might try to debate again in the future.
I guess my meaning was mistaken? Either that or you refuse to accept things, and prefer to over-rule... which was done to an extent even before I made that comment.
Since both teams still want to do this thing, and I would hope that they can do it with enjoymenet, I wont object to it.
However, since the last deadline was all but ignored, and folks rather forget the consequences, it is not my place to keep bending... what if the deadline is not met again, and you guys ask for another chance? Where does one draw the line? I refuse to set an example by offering another chance, so I gave this job to ithrynluin.
Be nice to him ;).
Ithrynluin
03-07-2003, 07:04 PM
Alrighty then.
Can both sides come up with a team till March 10th?
I would like the debate to last from March 10 - March 24.
I think that's more than enough time. Is that alright?
Any suggestions or propositions are more than welcome.
OK, our team is:
TheFool
Legolam
Pippin_Took
Aragil
Let it begin! :D
Arvedui
03-10-2003, 01:26 PM
Or rather, continue;)
I believe that the tweens are up?
Ithrynluin
03-13-2003, 04:42 PM
The debate should end on March 24
OR
when both teams post their concluding posts, which must be clearly visible in the post (put "Final post" or something like that in the "subject" box).
The judges: Nóm, Inderjit S, Eledhwen, Lantarion and a poll.:)
Pippin_Took spoke on behalf of the Periaur, saying that his guild wouldn't like to see the "draw" option avaliable on the poll and for the judges. I'll let him elaborate on the reasons.
I would like both the judges and the Ost-in-Edhil team to comment on this, whether it is a good idea or not.
I feel that each judge should be commited towards choosing a winner.
By declaring the debate a 'draw', I do not feel that it gives it justice.
In a court room, there is 'guilty' or a 'non-guilty' decision. There is no 'maybe-guilty', 'maybe-not'.
There is a winner and a loser in the debate and the judge must determine who they think is the winner in their eyes. By declaring it a draw, I feel that it is a cop-out and the judges are just taking the easy way out.
Gothmog
03-14-2003, 07:56 PM
Quite frankly I totaly disagree. In a debate there is not a certain "Winner" and "Loser". And in some law courts there is a "Draw" it is called "Not Proven".
I is the task of each debater to ensure that he/she convinces the judges with the arguments they put forward. If one side is better able to do this we have a winner and a loser. However, if niether side is able to put forward a convincing argument then how can any judge say that they were convinced?
In calling a draw the judges are saying that both sides were equaly good (or bad) in putting forth their cases. If they are prevented from calling a draw and if niether side has convinced them then they will have only one other option. That is to state that they have not been convinced and therefore are Unable To Vote.
I think there should be a "draw" option. As a judge I would try hard not to use it, normally one team does better than the other (in my opinion)... and so far have not had to, but if there comes a debate where I think both teams are equal I will need that option.
As for it being the easy way out... that might be so for some (who can be sure?), but I think the great majority of us would not do that.
I do not think that any of the judges that ithrynluin has selected would do that.
If you disturst the judges to the extent that you think they would take a draw because it is an easy way out.... then why value her/his opinion anyhow? Forget 'em!
Arvedui
03-15-2003, 11:30 AM
I disagree with P_T. This isn't a courtroom anyway.
I do not think that any of the judges that ithrynluin has selected would do that.
Neither do I, when I see who is judging this debate.
Ithrynluin
03-15-2003, 12:40 PM
I must say that retaining the "draw" option sounds more reasonable than discarding it. The judges will do their best to pick a winner though.:)
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