Debate: In that vast shadow once of yore... [Archive]

Lhunithiliel

02-16-2003, 11:34 PM

And I would also like to add a bit of my views on these matters.

"despair" filled Fingolfin't heart - true. For devastating was the picture of the war around him and desperate looked all to him....

But I would like to focus on the interpretation of this feeling.
It was not the blind - kind of despair of a person who has lost all hope! Not Fingolfin! This is not some kind of complete insanity that drove him to his action to challenge the mightiest Vala ... Just on the contrary!

We know that Fingolfin was against the rebellion of the Noldor against the Valar right from the beginning and
he marched against his wisdom
Yet
he would not be sundered from his people that were eager to go, nor leave them to the rash counsels of Fëanor. Nor did he forget his words before the throne of Manwë.

And after all the perils, after all the difficulties, after all the glory they had brought to ME, everything seemed "in vain" at that moment. All lay in desolation! All seemed ruined!
For what?!
For having taken the wrong decision!
For having questioned the authority of the Valar!
For having slain their kin!
For having failed in their quest!

THIS is a despair for the lost cause. THIS is a despair for the wrong done. THIS is more a cry for justice than despair simply!

Fingolfin's despair and wrath were caused not by some blind and uncontrollable insanity!
To challenge Morgoth was to challenge the worst enemy of those, against whom the Noldor had wrongly rebelled.
To defeat him? - I strongly doubt that Fingolfin had this thought!
To show him that there are still valiant Eldar to fight for the good cause? - THIS could be one of the major reasons.
To try "wipe" the guilt from the name of the Noldor in front of the Valar? - A reason even stronger!

So, yes - Fingolfin threw himself knowing he would most probaby lose his life.
But his death would have a strong reason!

Maedhros

02-17-2003, 03:11 AM

Did Fingolfin throw his life away purposely? Did he believe that he could overthrow Morgoth in single combat or was this deed (no matter how worthy) an act of suicide?
Let's get first a background on Fingolfin:
From the Published Silmarillion:Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië
Finwë was King of the Noldor. The sons of Finwë were Fëanor, and Fingolfin, and Finarfin; but the mother of Fëanor was Míriel Serindë, whereas the mother of Fingolfin and Finarfin was Indis of the Vanyar. Fëanor was the mightiest in skill of word and of hand, more learned than his brothers; his spirit burned as a flame. Fingolfin was the strongest, the most steadfast, and the most valiant. Finarfin was the fairest, and the most wise of heart; and afterwards he was a friend of the sons of Olwë, lord of the Teleri, and had to wife Eärwen, the swan-maiden of Alqualondë, Olwë's daughter.
And let's not forget that it was Morgoth that killed his father.
From Morgoth's Ring: Later Quentas: OF THE RAPE OF THE SILMARILS
'Darkness and blood! When we could move again we came to the house. There we found the king slain at the door. His head was crushed as with a great mace of iron. We found no others: all had fled, and he had stood alone, defiant. That is plain; for his sword lay beside him, twisted and untempered as if by lightning-stroke. All the house was broken and ravaged. Naught is left. The treasuries are empty. The chamber of iron is torn apart. The Silmarils are taken!'
There is an element which has not been ommited, and that is the pride of the Ñoldor, specially of those of the descendants of Finwë.
One of the reasons that the Ñoldor had returned to ME has to have their revenge upon Morgoth, who killed their king.
Fingolfin, unlike Fëanor, cared for his people. In the quote of the Topic, we can see that Fingolfin was overcame with wrath and despair. But this was due because he knew that the Ñoldor could not overtake the forces of Morgoth in this way. The only way to succed was to destroy Morgoth, for Fingolfin, there was no other way.
Our opponents says that he commited suicide and that he had no hope of beating Morgoth, I disagree.
From the Published Silmarillion: Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin
He passed over Dor-nu-Fauglith like a wind amid the dust, and all that beheld his onset fled in amaze, thinking that Oromë himself was come: for a great madness of rage was upon him, so that his eyes shone like the eyes of the Valar.
A man without hope against Morgoth could not have risen to the status that his eyes shone like the eyes of the Valar. He went to fight against Morgoth, he wounded him seven times.
But at the last the King grew weary, and Morgoth bore down his shield upon hint Thrice he was crushed to his knees, and thrice arose again and bore up his broken shield and stricken helm. But the earth was all rent and pitted about him, and he stumbled and fell backward before the feet of Morgoth; and Morgoth set his left foot upon his neck, and the weight of it was like a fallen hill. Yet with his last and desperate stroke Fingolfin hewed the foot with Ringil, and the blood gashed forth black and smoking and filled the pits of Grond.
Someone who wanted to commit suicide would not have fought to the end.
Remember that Fingolfin had a score to settle with Morgoth and no way in hell he was going to give to Morgoth. He went with the intention of killing Morgoth. He wounded him 7 times remember.
To challenge Morgoth was to challenge the worst enemy of those, against whom the Noldor had wrongly rebelled.
Wrongly rebelled against the slayer of their king?
So, yes - Fingolfin threw himself knowing he would most probaby lose his life.
He had all the intention of killing Morgoth and not himself, how do I know this, because he never gave up, ever in his fight against Morgoth.

Lhunithiliel

02-17-2003, 01:26 PM

Maedros: Wrongly rebelled against the slayer of their king?
Read my statement more carefully, please!
“To challenge Morgoth was to challenge the worst enemy of those, against whom the Noldor had wrongly rebelled.”
This was a challenge against THE Enemy of ALL the Valar, against the rebel himself, against THE Evil.

Fingolfin had always been known for his utmost respect for the authority of Manwe and the Valar. And this is precisely one of the main reasons for his great grief for having taken the oath. This was a severe struggle that he experienced – struggle between the allegiance to the higher powers, to the representatives of Illuvatar on one hand , and on the other – duty and responsibility for his people – the Noldor.

Fingolfin knew too well the might of the Valar! Do you think he truly believed that he alone could overthrow the mightiest of them?!

Throughout all the difficult establishment in ME, the battles and the periods of peace, it was Fingolfin who always considered the true might of Morgoth and acknowledged that THE Evil of Arda could not be defeated by someone with less powers that those of a Valar! UNITED!

Morgoth was not a match for an Eldar!

“…Fingolfin, being of other temper than Fëanor, and wary of the wiles of Morgoth, withdrew from Dor Daedeloth and turned back towards Mithrim, …….. for he had seen the strength of Angband, and thought not that it would fall to the sound of trumpets only.”

“…..the Noldor did not yet comprehend the fullness of the power of Morgoth, nor understand that their unaided war upon him was without final hope, whether they hasted or delayed……”
********
As for his combat with Morgoth, I see no reason to call it a proof for his clear intention to kill Morgoth.

Valiant King of valiant people! His valiance he had proved many times in many situations and battles. How else would he have fought?!

Had Fingolfin seen Morgoth before? He had.

Let’s “see” him for ourselves, as well:
"Therefore Morgoth came, climbing slowly from his subterranean throne, and the rumour of his feet was like thunder underground. And he issued forth clad in black armour; and he stood before the king like a tower, iron-crowned and his vast shield, sable unblazoned, cast a shadow over him like a storm cloud.”- The Lost Road
Had Fingolfin known how much mightier, more terrible and merciless the Dark Lord could be? He had! Remember Fingolfin witnessed Morgoth’s assault of the trees in the very heart of Valinor! In front of the eyes of ALL the Valar!

How then to accept the thought that he was convinced that HE – a sole though brave elf-warrior could overcome the One whom even the Gods feared?!

This, as I see it, proves again Fingolfin’s steady decision of a SACRIFICE – a sacrifice for the sake of the future and for the sake of the past!

“ But Fingolfin gleamed beneath it like a star; for his mail was overlaid with silver, and his blue shield was set with crystals; and he drew his sword Ringil, and it glittered like ice, cold and gray and deadly." - The Lost Road

Nóm

02-17-2003, 03:43 PM

Now news came to Hithlum that Dorthonion was lost and the sons of Finarfin overthrown, and that the sons of Fëanor were driven from their lands. Then Fingolfin beheld (as it seemed to him) the utter ruin of the Noldor, and the defeat beyond redress of all their houses; and filled with wrath and despair he mounted upon Rochallor his great horse and rode forth alone, and none might restrain him.

Fingolfin despaired for the Noldor thinking that Morgoth would be victorious, and that despair caused a rage of madness in which Fingolfin set out to defy Morgoth, and kill him.

by Anamatar
Also look at the word “despair.” The word despair means to lose all hope. If Fingolfin had truly lost hope then why would he believe he could succeed in battle against Morgoth?
Temperary loss of hope is not at all uncommon.

He despaired for his people, but true hopelessness ceased when from it arose a rage of maddness, wrath, defiance, and a desire to kill Morgoth.

It's not unheard of that a victim will reach the lowest point of despair, and then fight back stronger than ever before. These things are done in defiance, and defense - not as suicide, regardless of whether they look it because the person fails.

Therefore he dared a deed which is justly renowned among the feats of the princes of the Noldor; alone, and without the counsel of any, he set forth in search of Maedhros; and aided by the very darkness that Morgoth had made he came unseen into the fastness of his foes. High upon the shoulders of Thangorodrim he climbed, and looked in despair upon the desolation of the land; but no passage or crevice could he find through which he might come with in Morgoth's stronghold. Then in defiance of the Orcs, who cowered still in the dark vaults beneath the earth, he took his harp and sang a song of Valinor that the Noldor made of old, before strife was born among the sons of Finwë; and his voice rang in the mournful hollows that had never heard before aught save cries of fear and woe.
Thus Fingon found what he sought.

Fingolfin's own son had a similar experience. Seemingly impossible was attempted, then came despair, and of that a defiance.

by Lhunithiliel
As for his combat with Morgoth, I see no reason to call it a proof for his clear intention to kill Morgoth.
Well one of them would die. Since it was not Fingolfin's intention to get himself killed, he would have no reason to fight other than an attempt to kill Morgoth.

by Lhunithiliel
Had Fingolfin known how much mightier, more terrible and merciless the Dark Lord could be?
by Lhunithiliel
How then to accept the thought that he was convinced that HE – a sole though brave elf-warrior could overcome the One whom even the Gods feared?!
Surely he knew that Morgoth's might was greater than his own, but when in a madness of rage a person isn't put off by such things.
Fingon wasn't put off.
Beren wasn't put off.
Amazing things happen - those who are living them can not be sure that anything is impossible.
by Lhunithiliel
Morgoth was not a match for an Eldar!
Beren and Luthien got the best of him though.

by LhunithilielFingolfin had always been known for his utmost respect for the authority of Manwe and the Valar. And this is precisely one of the main reasons for his great grief for having taken the oath.
Which oath?

Book quotes from Published Sil.

Inderjit S

02-17-2003, 09:02 PM

“Also look at the word “despair.” The word despair means to lose all hope. If Fingolfin had truly lost hope then why would he believe he could succeed in battle against Morgoth?” - posted by Anamatar IV

Why shouldn’t he believe he could win? Morgoth was not the being he once was. He was now in a incarnate form, he could be slain (in bodily form of course,), and was eventually executed by Namo. Why shouldn’t Fingolfin have won, especially in his angered state? It seems to be one that is named Arafinwe, ‘Wise-Finwe’ would not rush headlong into a battle which he was destined to lose. Morgoth feared him ,and he knew it, and so long as Morgoth had an ounce of doubt about his own strength there was always the chance that he could be defeated.

Fingolfin was not a fool. What would his death accomplish exactly? The death of Morgoth would most probably lead to the desperation of his creatures and if the fall of the Noldor was indeed beginning to take place, then wasn’t this a window of opportunity to end the war, once and for all? As small as the hope was, it was still possible to slay a weakened and incarnate Morgoth.

Fingolfin fought until his last dying breath, is this the sign of someone who wants to die?

Anamatar IV

02-17-2003, 09:34 PM

Originally posted by Inderjit S

Why shouldn’t he believe he could win?

Because of his respect for the greatness and majesty of the Valar.

Morgoth was not the being he once was. He was now in a incarnate form,

Yes....he was in bodily form...as were all the Valar seeing how the Valar were the Mighty Ainur who entered the world in PHYSICAL FORM. So Melkor would still have as much power as he had when he and the Valar waged wars in the beginnings of the world.

he could be slain (in bodily form of course,), and was eventually executed by Namo.

Could you tell me where you go this information because I thought that Melkor was thrown into the Void by Manwe....never slain...but PHOPHECIED by Namo [to be killed by Turin].

It seems to be one that is named Arafinwe, ‘Wise-Finwe’ would not rush headlong into a battle which he was destined to lose.
Our point exactly: Fingolfin rushed headlong into a battle he KNEW he would lose.

As small as the hope was, it was still possible to slay a weakened and incarnate Morgoth.
Once again I tell you that an incarnate Morgoth is just as strong as the Valar Melkor.

Lhunithiliel

02-17-2003, 10:33 PM

Nom: Fingolfin despaired for the Noldor thinking that Morgoth would be victorious, and that despair caused a rage of madness in which Fingolfin set out to defy Morgoth, and kill him.
Well, thank you, Nom! Just backing up our point!

In fact most posts of my respected opponent prove exactly how desperate Fingolfin's challenge against Morgoth was .

But where there is a despair, emotions rule, not the cool sense!
A desired and planned intention to go and kill Morgoth - this NEEDS a cool head!
Therefore, it would be refreshing for the debate if the Schollars provide some evidence on this issue!

And by describing how overwhelmed by grief and despair Fingolfin was, as is so nicely done by our kind oponents, the possibility for cold-planned actions fades for being not valid!

I can also not agree with these words:
Nom:It's not unheard of that a victim will reach the lowest point of despair, and then fight back stronger than ever before.
Despair can be a mighty force of actions and I am sure that every one here from both teams will agree that Fingolfin was a character of high spirit.
So, HIS despair would have NEVER been "low"! Such a "low" - kind of despair can feel only people who are not in the habbit of risking their lives for causes higher than their own individual wellfare!
This is definitely not Fingolfin!

Inderjit S, I am glad to see you participating in the debate! And I thought that me and Anamatar shall have to face only 4 Schollars! Now you have become 5! :D
Anyway, you claim that Morgoth was less strong that he used to be.
Will you kindly read the quotes from the Lost Road that I provided, describing both - Morgoth and Fingolfin? THEN, tell me who is stronger and HONESTLY say whether Fingolfin, even as brave as he was could ever match the strength of the Dark Vala AND his Grond! (Oh!Where are you now, Master? ;) :D )
Let me also add the words of J.R.R.Tolkien. I could not be that skileld!!
... it is said that [color=yellow]he took not the challenge willingly; for though his might was greatest of all things in this world, alone of the Valar he knew fear.
But he could not now deny the challenge before the face of his captains; for the rocks rang with the shrill music of Fingolfin's horn, and his voice came keen and clear down into the depths of Angband... - The Silmarillion
....
No comment!
Is it needed at all?!
********

Nóm

02-18-2003, 02:15 AM

by Lhunithiliel
Well, thank you, Nom! Just backing up our point!

In fact most posts of my respected opponent prove exactly how desperate Fingolfin's challenge against Morgoth was .

But where there is a despair, emotions rule, not the cool sense!
A desired and planned intention to go and kill Morgoth - this NEEDS a cool head!
Therefore, it would be refreshing for the debate if the Schollars provide some evidence on this issue!

The only point of your team's that I backed up there, is that Fingolfin did for a time despair. It's right there stated clearly in the book. It can not be denied.

Fingolfon's actions where more emotional than calm and well thought-out. You expect that Scholars must show evidence otherwise? Nay, I will not say it was calm and well thought out, when it the book states it was a rage of madness.

That would be to walk, no run in madness into a trap.

None of my points have been countered as of yet.

Maedhros

02-18-2003, 05:34 AM

Because of his respect for the greatness and majesty of the Valar.
Ok, so he had great respect for the Killer of the Ñoldóran, the king of the Ñoldor Finwë, who happened to be his father too, and while Fingolfin had respect for the Valar, Morgoth was not counted among them any longer.
Yes....he was in bodily form...as were all the Valar seeing how the Valar were the Mighty Ainur who entered the world in PHYSICAL FORM. So Melkor would still have as much power as he had when he and the Valar waged wars in the beginnings of the world.
That would be true if Morgoth had not spend his power elsewhere.
From Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed
But Melkor had already progressed some way towards becoming 'the Morgoth, a tyrant (or central tyranny and will), + his agents'. Only the total contained the old power of the complete Melkor; so that if 'the Morgoth' could be reached or temporarily separated from his agents he was much more nearly controllable and on a power-level with the Valar. The Valar find that they can deal with his agents (sc. armies, Balrogs, etc.) piecemeal. So that they come at last to Utumno itself and find that 'the Morgoth' has no longer for the moment sufficient 'force' (in any sense) to shield himself from direct personal contact. Manwë at last faces Melkor again, as he has not done since he entered Arda. Both are amazed: Manwë to perceive the decrease in Melkor as a person, Melkor to perceive this also from his own point of view: he has now less personal force than Manwë, and can no longer daunt him with his gaze.
So you see, at that time, Morgoth had diseminated his power elsewhere, making him personally less powerful that he once was, and it was a process that continued until the very end.
Could you tell me where you go this information because I thought that Melkor was thrown into the Void by Manwe....never slain...but PHOPHECIED by Namo [to be killed by Turin].
From Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed
The war was successful, and ruin was limited to the small (if beautiful) region of Beleriand. Morgoth was thus actually made captive in physical form, and in that form taken as a mere criminal to Aman and delivered to Námo Mandos as judge - and executioner. He was judged, and eventually taken out of the Blessed Realm and executed: that is killed like one of the Incarnates.
So you see, it is possible to kill Morgoth, because he existed as a physical being. The Second Prophecy of Mandos is not an idea that JRRT left for his later writtings. It actually contradicts them.
Our point exactly: Fingolfin rushed headlong into a battle he KNEW he would lose.
Can you provide a quote from the book that states that Fingolfin knew he was going to die? No, because it doesn't exists.
Once again I tell you that an incarnate Morgoth is just as strong as the Valar Melkor.
Nooperz. Not the Morgoth that stayed in ME.
But where there is a despair, emotions rule, not the cool sense!
A desired and planned intention to go and kill Morgoth - this NEEDS a cool head!
Therefore, it would be refreshing for the debate if the Schollars provide some evidence on this issue!
Lets look at the quote of the Topic for a moment:
'Then Fingolfin beheld (as it seemed to him) the utter ruin of the Noldor, and the defeat beyond redress of all their houses; and filled with wrath and despair he mounted upon Rochallor his great horse and rode forth alone, and none might restrain him. He passed over Dor-nu-Fauglith like a wind amid the dust, and all that beheld his onset fled in amaze, thinking that Oromë himself was come: for a great madness of rage was upon him, so that his eyes shone like the eyes of the Valar. Thus he came alone to Angband's gates, and he sounded his horn, and smote once more upon the brazen doors, and challenged Morgoth to come forth to single combat. And Morgoth came.'
It's simple really. The original plan of the Ñoldor was to overcome Morgoth's armies in war. Fingolfin, after that Battle realized that it was not possible for the Ñoldor to overcame then, so he took an alternate plan, to destroy Morgoth himself. If plan A doesn't work, then turn to plan B.
The topic of the debate is wheter Fingolfin commited suicide by going to attack Morgoth and the answer is no. The main argument that our opposition uses is the word despair, that Fingolfin had lost all hope. He did loose all hope that their armies could beat Morgoth's armies, but he went to attack Morgoth with the idea of Killing him.
How do I know that, simple?
Would and elf with no hope, evoke the stature of Oromë a Valar? I don't think so.
Would a hopeless elf fight to his last breath? No.
And Fingolfin was not just a Ñoldor, he was the High King of the Ñoldor, and he was a very proud elf.
Anyway, you claim that Morgoth was less strong that he used to be.
It's no claim but a fact that Morgoth had lost power. Of course that Morgoth was mightier than Fingolfin, but Fingolfin didn't care didly squat about that, he wanted to kill Morgoth, that is why he fought to the death. And as you have quoted, if Fingolfin had came with no hope, why did Morgoth was afraid of his challenge. He was afraid because there was a possibility that he might loose. He can be killed.

Inderjit S

02-18-2003, 03:30 PM

Originally posted by Anamatar IV

Could you tell me where you go this information because I thought that Melkor was thrown into the Void by Manwe....never slain...but PHOPHECIED by Namo [to be killed by Turin].

Once again I tell you that an incarnate Morgoth is just as strong as the Valar Melkor.

" The war was succesful, and ruin was limited to the small (if beautiful) region of Beleriand. Morgoth was made captive in physcal form and in that form was taken as a mere criminal and taken to Namo Mandos as a judge-and executioner. He was judged and eventually taken out of the Blessed Realm and executed: that is killed liek one of the incarnates....when the body was destroyed he was weak and utterly houseless...We read that he was then thrust into the void."-Myths Tranformed-HoME 10.

Melkor's slaying by Turin is dated, and shouldn't be considered part of the later and rightful canon. The second prophecy of Mandos, in which this appears should be discarded.

I think Maedhros argued the point well that Morgoth had become weaker, due to the dispersing of his power into his subjects and the earth.

FoolOfATook

02-19-2003, 04:18 AM

The most worthy Maedhros has argued that the plan of the Noldor was to “overcome Morgoth's armies in war.” I believe that he misspoke. I would invite Maedhros to examine the strategy that Fingolfin had engineered, and had been in use for four hundred years prior to the Elf King’s most tragic death.
The strategy that the Noldor had been using, prior to the Dagor Bragollach, the Battle of Sudden Flame, was refered to as “The Siege of Angbad”. Now, a siege has two very different possible military purposes. A siege can be a fundamentally offensive tactic- Sauron’s Seige of Gondor during the War of the Ring would be a classic example of this. However, another famous siege, the Siege of Barad-Dur conducted by the Last Alliance of Elves and Men, is an example of a siege designed to contain an enemy, rather than attempt to pressure the enemy into surrender. The Siege of Angbad was primarily designed to contain the forces of Morgoth, not to pressure Morgoth into surrendering the Silmarils and giving up on his quest for domination of Middle-earth. The simple fact that the siege went on for four hundred years speaks to this reality.
To further establish this key point, I’d like to introduce this piece of evidence into the debate. It comes from the Quenta Silmarillion, and is found in the chapter “Of the Return of the Noldor”.

“A victory it was (Dagor Agraleb, The Glorious Battle), and yet a warning; and the princes took heed of it, and thereafter drew closer their leaguer, and strengthened and ordered their watch, setting the Siege of Angbad, which lasted wellnigh four hundred years of the Sun. For a long time after Dagor Agraleb no servant of Morgoth would venture from his gates, for they feared the lords of the Noldor; and Fingolfin boasted that save by treason among themselves Morgoth could never again burst forth from the leaguer of the Eldar, nor come upon them at unawares. Yet the Noldor could not capture Angbad, nor could they regain the Silmarils; and war never wholly ceased in all that time of the Siege, for Morgoth devised new evils, and ever and anon he would make trial of his enemies. Nor could the stronghold of Morgoth be ever wholly encircled; for the Iron Mountains, from whose great curving wall the towers of Thangorodrim were thrust forward, defended it upon either side, and were impassable to the Noldor, because of their snow and ice. Thus in his rear and to the north Morgoth had no foes, and by that way his spies at times went out, and came by devious routes into Beleriand.”

A few points from the text that I would like to draw attention to. First, that the siege was incomplete. This is important. Obviously, Fingolfin and the other leaders of the Noldor were quite aware that the siege was not complete. This is evidence of their intentions with the siege- containment, rather than to pressure Morgoth into surrender. An incomplete siege, for very clear reasons, cannot serve as an offensive tool, but rather only a defensive manuver. Secondly, I would like to focus attention on the statement about Fingolfin. “Fingolfin boasted that save by treason among themselves Morgoth could never again burst forth from the leaguer of the Eldar, nor come upon them at unawares.” Fingolfin BOASTED about the siege, and he boasted that the only way that it could fail was treason among the Elves. Fingolfin boasted that Morgoth could not break the siege by his own power. This is of crucial importance, and it is a point that I will return to shortly. Finally, I draw attention to Morgoth’s military responses to the siege. He does not send out sorties, seeking to break the siege, but rather sends out his spies to infiltrate Beleriand. This reiterates the nature of the siege- Morgoth saw it as no threat to his continued rule, and therefore saw fit to choose his own time to attempt to break the siege.

Now, I have spent some time focusing on the nature of the Siege of Angbad. I doubt not that many participants, judges and spectators of these debates are curious as to why. Quite simply, I wish to emphasize the importance of the Seige of Angbad within the ongoing War of the Silmarils, as well as its importance to Fingolfin, the High King of the Noldor, and the architect of the Siege. I focus on it also to show the nature of the Elves’ war against Morgoth. This is what I shall speak on next, but first there are two quotations that I would like to enter into the debate as evidence. The first is from Unfinished Tales of Numenor and MIddle-earth, and comes from the section “The History of Galadriel and Celeborn”.

“In the years after they (Galadriel and Celeborn) did not join in the war against Angbad, which they judged to be hopeless under the ban of the Valar and without their aid…”

The second quote is from the Quenta Silmarillion, and comes from the chapter entitled “Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin”.

“This council was wise according to the measure of his (Fingolfin) knowledge; for the Noldor did not yet comprehend the fullness of the power of Morgoth, nor understand that their unaided war against him was without final hope, whether they hasted or delayed.”

I draw attention to the terms “hopeless” and “without final hope”, used in both situations to describe Elves’ unaided war with Morgoth. I believe that it is vital to understand that without the assistance of the Valar, the Elves quite simply could not defeat Morgoth- a fact realized by Galadriel and Celeborn, but not by Fingolfin, at least, not until the Dagor Bragollach. Within the same chapter, “Of the Ruin of Beleriand”, there is this passage.

“In he front of that fire came Glaurung the golden, father of dragons, in his full might; and in his train were Balrogs, and behind them came the black armies of the Orcs in multitudes such as the Noldor had never before seen or imagined.”

I draw attention to the phrase “multitudes such as the Noldor had never before seen or imagined.” In the Dagor Bragollach, Morgoth unleashed more Orcs than the Noldor, who had been fighting this war against Morgoth for centuries, and for the past four centuries had besieged Angbad, ever imagined. After four hundred years of biding his time, and building his forces, Morgoth lashed out against the Noldor with armies beyond the comprehension of the Elves.

Now, I direct attention to the combined meaning of these pieces of evidence. Fingolfin’s boasts that Morgoth could not break the Siege of Angbad with his own might. Galadriel’s decision that Morgoth was not defeatable. Morgoth’s unleashing of armies of Orcs in sizes that the Noldor could not have even imagined. The breaking of the Siege of Angbad and the massive losses suffered by the armies of the Noldor and the Edain. In combination, this paints a very stark picture. They show a proud Elvish King who suddenly and harshly learns that he was in error, and that his error has cost the lives of many of his people. They show a warrior who has finally learned that he is fighting a battle that quite simply cannot be won. They show an Elvish King who in a very short period of time has lost everything. With this in mind, it is easy to understand exactly why Fingolfin was driven to one last, hopeless attempt, why he was driven to sacrifice his life in one final attempt to defeat the Dark Lord Morgoth or to die trying.

Mithlond

02-19-2003, 01:12 PM

My argument might be conflicting with Lhun's view of the situtation here a little, but we are still following the same path. So here goes.

Originally posted by Inderjit S
Why shouldn?t Fingolfin have won, especially in his angered state? It seems to be one that is named Arafinwe, ?Wise-Finwe? would not rush headlong into a battle which he was destined to lose.

I wonder if we all know exactly what goes through the mind of someone who is in such a state of mind where their life has nothing left?

No matter how wise and powerful Fingolfin was, no matter how strong his mind was, when he beheld the utter ruin of his people, his people that had fought and died for him, died for a cause that he finally realised they had no hope of winning, his mind was broken.
His mind was thrust into such a state that he saw no hope left for the remainder of his people or for himself.

Fingolfin was in utter despair, and without thought he rode alone into the heart of enemy territory, he rode forth into the shadow of death obviously knowing he would surely die.

Fingolfin challenged Morgoth to single combat, and they fought long, yes. But just the thought of riding alone into the enemies hands in the situation and state of mind he was in is an act of suicide.

Even if Fingolfin did win the duel, surely he would not have gone there thinking so. If he managed to defeat Morgoth his dragons and balrog's would have came upon him like a great firestorm.

No, he knew he would not return alive, but still he went.

Nóm

02-19-2003, 06:29 PM

Originally posted by Mithlond
I wonder if we all know exactly what goes through the mind of someone who is in such a state of mind where their life has nothing left?
Being that he was in a rage of madness, I imagine that killing Morgoth was the only thing that went through his mind when he rode up and and sounded his horn calling Morgoth a coward and slave master. He was too full of rage and wrath to even think about his own death.
Originally posted by Mithlond
His mind was thrust into such a state that he saw no hope left for the remainder of his people or for himself.
He did despair for a time, but was then overcome with rage to kill Morgoth.
Originally posted by Mithlond
Fingolfin was in utter despair, and without thought he rode alone into the heart of enemy territory, he rode forth into the shadow of death obviously knowing he would surely die.
"..obviously knowing he would surely die." - Obvious, how?
He was intent on defying and destroying Morgoth.

Originally posted by Mithlond
Fingolfin challenged Morgoth to single combat, and they fought long, yes. But just the thought of riding alone into the enemies hands in the situation and state of mind he was in is an act of suicide.
It may look like suicide at first glance, because the odds were against him and he did in fact die... but this was not an intential suicide, therefore it was not a suicide. Fingolfin was not acting with the intention of ending his life, though he did risk it, and as it turned out, he lost it.

Originally posted by Mithlond
Even if Fingolfin did win the duel, surely he would not have gone there thinking so. If he managed to defeat Morgoth his dragons and balrog's would have came upon him like a great firestorm.

No, he knew he would not return alive, but still he went.
We can't be sure that Morgoth's dragons and balrogs would have attacked Fingolfin had Morgoth been killed. But, I do not think Fingolfin was even thinking about that, because of the rage in him, he was just set on killing Morgoth. Riding up to Angband he had one purpose - putting an end to Morgoth. When he desapired he decided to take Morgoth down himself.

Why would he want to end his life? There is no reason. There was no mention of shame or guilt, just despair and then rage (the most extreme anger) against Morgoth.
This is said of his ride to Angband:
... for a great rage of madness was upon him...
That's not suicide folks... that is overwhelming anger and unreason. Fingolfin was filled with anger and his whole being was set on one thing - destroying Morgoth.
Sure... we see it and we say "it looks like he wanted to die, he was asking for death." But that is only because we are measuring his actions according to our mindset - reason. Fingolfin wasn't in a reasonable frame of mind at the time, he was in a rage. HE will not have been thinking the things we think while we are using reason.
by FoolOfATook
With this in mind, it is easy to understand exactly why Fingolfin was driven to one last, hopeless attempt, why he was driven to sacrifice his life in one final attempt to defeat the Dark Lord Morgoth or to die trying.
He purposefully did things that resulted in his death but did not do them with the purpose of dying. This can be said of any warrior going into any battle.
"Attempt to defeat morgoth or die trying." Is not suicide, it is an attempt at something that has a risk of death. Just as going into any battle would.

Maedhros

02-20-2003, 04:32 AM

The strategy that the Noldor had been using, prior to the Dagor Bragollach, the Battle of Sudden Flame, was refered to as “The Siege of Angbad”.
This is not exaclty true. Yes the Ñoldor had been using a Siege against Morgoth, but only because they felt they didn't have enough power to attack Angband directly. It was the same Fingolfin that knew that he had to attack Angband directly in order to defeat Morgoth.
From the Published Silmarillion: Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin
Now Fingolfin, King of the North, and High King of the Noldor, seeing that his people were become numerous and strong, and that the Men allied to them were many and valiant, pondered once more an assault upon Angband; for he knew that they lived in danger while the circle of the siege was incomplete, and Morgoth was free to labour in his deep mines, devising what evils none could foretell ere he should reveal them.
Fingolfin, before the Dagor Bragollach, had thought of attacking Angband directly, it was only that most of the Ñoldor refused his advice and ultimately they payed the prize.
This is evidence of their intentions with the siege- containment, rather than to pressure Morgoth into surrender.
Again, this was because the Ñoldor felt that they didn't have enough strength to attack Morgoth directly, Fingolfin before the Dagor Bragollach thought differently and advised an attack on it.
“This council was wise according to the measure of his (Fingolfin) knowledge; for the Noldor did not yet comprehend the fullness of the power of Morgoth, nor understand that their unaided war against him was without final hope, whether they hasted or delayed.”
Interesting that you post that Fingolfin was the architect of the Siege, and the Ñoldor had no plan to attack Morgoth, and yet you forged the fact that it was Fingolfin himself who knew that they had to attack Morgoth directly.
I draw attention to the terms “hopeless” and “without final hope”, used in both situations to describe Elves’ unaided war with Morgoth. I believe that it is vital to understand that without the assistance of the Valar, the Elves quite simply could not defeat Morgoth- a fact realized by Galadriel and Celeborn, but not by Fingolfin, at least, not until the Dagor Bragollach. Within the same chapter, “Of the Ruin of Beleriand”, there is this passage.
The words that you quote are the words of the author and not the thinking of Fingolfin. Fingolfin is the High King of the Ñoldor, the Ñoldor returned to ME with all the intentions of attacking and waging war on Morgoth. The author states that this war was hopeless, but the Ñoldor had to fight it in order to know that. Fëanor had to die, in order to know that. Fingolfin had to suffer a great defeat to know that his tactics and plans to attack the armies of Morgoth are hopeless, then there is only one course of action to take, and that is to challenge the killer of the Ñoldóran one on one. Why is that a choice? Because there is hope in it. You see Morgoth hides behind his armies and servants. The more time he spends in ME, the more his true self becomes more vulnerable to a direct attack. Morgoth had spend a great deal of his own power on his servants, leaving him in a weaker state. Morgoth knew that too, and that is why he was afraid of the Challenge by Fingolfin, he knew that he could loose, he knew that Fingolfin had all the motivation to kill him, and Morgoth was terrified because he could be killed.
“In the years after they (Galadriel and Celeborn) did not join in the war against Angbad, which they judged to be hopeless under the ban of the Valar and without their aid…”
This is an interesting passage that you bring our from Unfinished Tales, from the version in which Galadriel and Celeborn met in Aman, and though they were very close in kindred they ended up marrying. In this version, Galadriel even fighted in the side of the Teleri. In this version, Galadriel would have not met Melian in Doriath. And that this version was not written also. Why did you forget to say that? But really, Galadriel was not a leader of any Ñoldorian Kingdom in ME in the first Age, so what does it matter what she thinks in an alternate version never written.
The breaking of the Siege of Angbad and the massive losses suffered by the armies of the Noldor and the Edain. In combination, this paints a very stark picture. They show a proud Elvish King who suddenly and harshly learns that he was in error, and that his error has cost the lives of many of his people. They show a warrior who has finally learned that he is fighting a battle that quite simply cannot be won. They show an Elvish King who in a very short period of time has lost everything. With this in mind, it is easy to understand exactly why Fingolfin was driven to one last, hopeless attempt, why he was driven to sacrifice his life in one final attempt to defeat the Dark Lord Morgoth or to die trying.
Actually, as proven by the fact that it was indeed Fingolfin who saw the need to attack Angband before the Dagor Bragollach, brings this theory of yours down.
You also seem to forget that Fingolfin is a very proud Ñoldor.
From The Peoples of Me: The Shibboleth of Fëanor
Fëanor was deprived of the leadership, and the greater part of the Ñoldor who forsook Valinor marched under the command of Fingolfin, the eldest son of Indis. Fingolfin was his father's son, tall, dark, and proud, as were most of the Ñoldor, and in the end in spite of the enmity between him and Fëanor he joined with full will in the rebellion and the exile, though he continued to claim the kingship of all the Ñoldor.
Fingolfin didn't care didly squat if the Valar told them that the war was hopeless, they were proud Ñoldor looking for revenge.
It is interesting the way that the other side portrays Fingolfin's attack on Morgoth, they say that he had lost all hope and was despairing. If an elf, had lost all hope, would that elf could elevate his level as to be thought of as a Vala? Would a hopeless elf could cause fear in Morgoth?
Answer No. Fingolfin had all the intentions of killing Morgoth. Remember that Fingolfin was a proud Ñoldor.

Inderjit S

02-20-2003, 02:57 PM

-posted by Mithlond
I wonder if we all know exactly what goes through the mind of someone who is in such a state of mind where their life has nothing left?

Nothing left? He had his sons, his sister Lalwende, and of all the Elven kingdoms, his was the only one left in tact. Fingolfin did have 'something left'- the chance to defeat Morgoth in single combat.

-posted by Mithlond
, he rode forth into the shadow of death obviously knowing he would surely die.

Where is the textual evidence to back this up? If there is some, then we might as well in the debate right now.

-posted by Mithlond
Even if Fingolfin did win the duel, surely he would not have gone there thinking so. If he managed to defeat Morgoth his dragons and balrog's would have came upon him like a great firestorm.

With the death of their king and god, don't you think that the cowardly followers of Morgoth would've fell into despair? A lot of the Orcs and other creatures would have been bereft of purpose and lordship. The defeat of Morgoth would've been a huge mental defeat for his creatures and many of the Orcs's power and his other creatures power was bound up into his, and it is doubtful whether they would've recovered.

There were also few dragons around this time, and few Balrogs as well. (No more then 7, according to Tolkien ever existed. How many were slain in the War of the Gods? (Certainly not the hosts that were slain be Manwe in the Annals of Beleriand.) Some may have been slain prior to Braggolach.

Lhunithiliel

02-20-2003, 05:04 PM

I am sorry, but this one is going to be long :eek:

1/ I will start my post reminding the very subject of the present debate:
“The question for the debate is simply this:Did Fingolfin throw his life away purposely? Did he believe that he could overthrow Morgoth in single combat or was this deed (no matter how worthy) an act of suicide?”
Our opponents build a great part of their arguments against us on the basis of the word “suicide”, claiming that Fingolfin, being who he was, could by no means commit a foolish act of suicide.

However, neither our team, nor, I believe, anybody, would ever take such an assumption as possible!

Let’s see how the Debate-Master – Turgon had clarified this matter before the debate actually started:
“By 'purposely' I mean of course 'deliberately', and as for suicide - shall we say a deliberate act to end one's own life? “
So, you see, we are not considering Fingolfin’s death as a vain suicidal act in that commonly accepted sense and understanding and negative notion of this word.

Besides, with the Elves, the matters of life and death, hence – of suicide, have quite a different meaning don’t they!

We are not speaking here of a life foolishly thrown away, but about a SACRIFICE, committed by a proud Noldorian King and a valiant Elf-warrior!

Our opponents ask: “What would he sacrifice his life for?”

I’d boldly say – for the future of the Children of Illuvatar, both Elves and Men in Arda, for the Arda Re-made!

In order to understand this reason for Fingolfin’s sacrifice, we all should take into consideration his understanding and belief of death and life, of time – past and future, of Arda as the world he lived in and of the role of their (the Elvish) race and that of Men in these matters.

In the essay “Athrabeth Ah Finrod and Athrabeth” there are some valuable commentaries by J.R.R.Tolkien himself on how the Eldar of the years of Fingolfin, resp. he himself, looked upon these issues.
“Hroa and fea he would say are wholly distinct in kind, and not on the 'same plane of derivation from Eru'…. The fea is indestructible, a unique identity which cannot be disintegrated or absorbed into any other identity. The hroa, however, can be destroyed and dissolved….”
And further on:
....basing his argument on the axiom that severance of hroa and fea is unnatural and contrary to design, he comes (or if you like jumps) to the conclusion that the fea of unfallen Man would have taken with it its hroa into the new mode of existence (free from Time)…..

He then has a vision of Men as the agents of the 'unmarring' of Arda, not merely undoing the marring or evil wrought by Melkor, but by producing a third thing, Arda Re-made - for Eru never merely undoes the past, but brings into being something new, richer than the 'first design'. In Arda Re-made Elves and Men will each separately find joy and content, and an interplay of friendship, a bond of which will be the Past.”
Now, THIS is a reason to “die” for! Wouldn’t you agree?!

And I put die in “ “ because an Elf of Fingolfin’t generation did not simply die! The body might be destroyed but the hroar were not of that importance for Elves as we, Men, understand it (then and now ;) ).
Fea was the essential for the Elves!

I understand that some of you might say that at the time Fingolfin rode to Angband to challenge Morgoth to a duel, he did not think about such serious matters as the above.
And of course he did not! But he DIDN’T have to!

Conscience is something ever present and it controlls actions.
Fingolfin, having the above explained understandings and beliefs, would act not driven by a thought but by conscience – that particular part of the mind that is more commonly named understanding and belief.

But how would have Fingolfin had these understandings and beliefs in the first place?! How would he have had the belief for an Arda Re-made?

Let’s not forget that Dagor-Bragollach, the battle when F. died, was held in the year 455-456 of the First Age. Men had come to Beleriand about the year 305 of the First Age. The interaction between the races of the Children of Eru was at the time of Dagor Bragollach very active.

Elves already lived with the hope that Men had come to this world for a specific purpose - the one I briefly drew above.
Call it the “religion” of the Elves, if you like.

The Noldor, on the other hand, had also understood the folly of the oaths taken in the past centuries and the impossibility of defeating THE Enemy by themselves.

So, to draw a conclusion on this point, I would say that Fingolfin SACRIFICED his life (the life of his body, of course, not his fea) for reasons far important for the races of Elves and Men – the future Arda Re-made.

Having lost all hope in the military powers of the Noldor, having in fact understood the full folly of the Noldorian wars against Melkor without the help from the Valar, having acknowledged the vanity of a pride fed by unjust cause AND with the only pure hope for hios fea left in his conscience, he must have decided to end up the existence of his body in order to free his fea and prepare it for that future.

2/ Our opponents also claim that Fingolfin intended to physically destroy Morgoth because he did not fear a Vala, who had become weaker.

This leads to a conclusion that he then wished to preserve the life of his body!
I mean, Morgoth perishes – I (F.) live!
But I somehow fail to find a very good reason why he would care so much for the life of his body, when he had seen those of thousands of his people and of noble elves to have perished and their fear having flown to the Halls of Mandos!

And why would he be interested to defeat an enemy on this particular - material level of existence, when he, being an Elf, knew where the real power lay!

As for the physical strength of his body in particular, in “Athrabeth Ah Finrod and Athrabeth” we can find some comments on this point, too.
“'That I can well believe,' said Finrod: 'that your bodies suffer in some measure the malice of Melkor. For you live in Arda Marred, as do we, and all the matter of Arda was tainted by him, …….. For know, it is not otherwise with the Quendi themselves: their health and stature is diminished. Already those of us who dwell in Middle-earth, and even we who have returned to it, find that the change of their bodies is swifter than in the beginning. And that, I judge, must forebode that they will prove less strong to last than they were designed to be……”
Ths short extract proves that Fingolfin, being a Quendi himself, and knowing too well of this precise condition of state of the elvish body-soul, could not count on a body and bodily strength so great as to be capable of destroying a far more phisically strong enemy.

On the other hand, to the arguments of our opponents, stating that Melkor was not that strong allready, let me provide a very short comment from the essay “Of the Laws and Customs among the Eldar”:
....“….for the visible form of the Valar proceeds from their own will and with regard to their true being ….”
There is no proof whatsoever, that Morgoth had decided to face Fingolfin in a bodily form weak and vulnerable. On the contrary!
I’ll use once again a short part of a quote from the “Lost Road” which I have used already for the same purpose and which our opponents have ignored.
This, of course I find quite understandable, because the words of the Professor can not be disputed!
“he stood before the king like a tower, iron-crowned and his vast shield, sable unblazoned, cast a shadow over him like a storm cloud.”
So, to claim that Melkor was an easy prey for Fingolfin can not be proved by indirect assumptions against direct statements.

Besides, even though you provide quotes from various sources to prove Melkor’s weakened strength, it is so ONLY in comparison to his strength before and to the strength of the Valar at the time of his duel with Fingolfin.
No comparison is made between Melkor’s strength and that of the Elves in favour of the Elves. This simply can not be done as these are not comparable in the first place at all!

Elfarmari

02-21-2003, 03:13 AM

(letters added by me)
Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
(A) We are not speaking here of a life foolishly thrown away, but about a SACRIFICE, committed by a proud Noldorian King and a valiant Elf-warrior!
Our opponents ask: “What would he sacrifice his life for?”
I’d boldly say – for the future of the Children of Illuvatar, both Elves and Men in Arda, for the Arda Re-made!
2/ Our opponents also claim that Fingolfin intended to physically destroy Morgoth because he did not fear a Vala, who had become weaker.
This leads to a conclusion that he then wished to preserve the life of his body!
I mean, Morgoth perishes – I (F.) live!
But I somehow fail to find a very good reason why he would care so much for the life of his body, when he had seen those of thousands of his people and of noble elves to have perished and their fear having flown to the Halls of Mandos!

And why would he be interested to defeat an enemy on this particular - material level of existence, when he, being an Elf, knew where the real power lay!

(B)There is no proof whatsoever, that Morgoth had decided to face Fingolfin in a bodily form weak and vulnerable. On the contrary!
So, to claim that Melkor was an easy prey for Fingolfin can not be proved by indirect assumptions against direct statements.

No comparison is made between Melkor’s strength and that of the Elves in favour of the Elves. This simply can not be done as these are not comparable in the first place at all! [/B]

(A) May I remind everyone of a key element in the passage: 'Then Fingolfin beheld (as it seemed to him) the utter ruin of the Noldor, and the defeat beyond redress of all their houses; and filled with wrath and despair he mounted upon Rochallor his great horse and rode forth alone, and none might restrain him. He passed over Dor-nu-Fauglith like a wind amid the dust, and all that beheld his onset fled in amaze, thinking that Oromë himself was come: for a great madness of rage was upon him, so that his eyes shone like the eyes of the Valar. Fingolfin was not sitting still thinking planning his actions coolly and rationally. He was filled with wrath and despair, and in this state he was not thinking about his own death, not about the fate of Arda in the End, not about how mismatched the battle with Melkor would be. He was only thinking of one thing: to destroy the one who had done this to his people. Even for one as wise and rational as Fingolfin, there is a point at which reason breaks down. This is conjecture, I admit, but I believe despair, rage and madness can add up to loss of reason. In the state Fingolfin thought himself a match for Morgoth, and intended to destroy him.

(B)Published Silmarilliion-- Now Melkor came to Avathar and sought her [Ungoliant] out; and he put on again the form that he had worn as the tyrant of Utumno: a dark Lord, tall and terrible. In that form he remained ever after.
Admittedly, I am being slightly nitpicky, but Melkor had no choice as to his form after destroying the Two Trees. Melkor had been diminished, so that he was no longer equal to the other Valar. Still above the Eldar, but I repeat: this did not cross Fingolfin's mind. At no time is it said he took time for thought.

This is from the Book of Lost Tales II, which is older than the published Silmarillion, and so can be disputed, but it seems to more explicitly state the reason for Fingolfin's challenge: Fingolfin saw now the ruin of the Gnomes and the defeat of all their houses, and he was filled with wrath and despair; and he rode alone to the gates of Angband, and in his madness challenged Morgoth to single combat.

and as for suicide - shall we say a deliberate act to end one's own life?
Can a person blinded by madness, grief, despair, and madness make a deliberate decision to end his life? I would say no.

Lhunithiliel

02-21-2003, 07:46 AM

Originally posted by Elfarmari
(A) May I remind everyone of a key element in the passage: Fingolfin was not sitting still thinking planning his actions coolly and rationally. He was filled with wrath and despair, and in this state he was not thinking about his own death, not about the fate of Arda in the End, not about how mismatched the battle with Melkor would be. He was only thinking of one thing: to destroy the one who had done this to his people. Even for one as wise and rational as Fingolfin, there is a point at which reason breaks down. This is conjecture, I admit, but I believe despair, rage and madness can add up to loss of reason. In the state Fingolfin thought himself a match for Morgoth, and intended to destroy him.
Elfarmari, I explicitly pointed out that Fingolfin's actions were not driven by particular thoughts but by [/i]conscience[/i], by his inner understandings and beliefs.
I'll remind what I said on this matter:
I understand that some of you might say that at the time Fingolfin rode to Angband to challenge Morgoth to a duel, he did not think about such serious matters as the above.

And of course he did not! But he DIDN’T have to!

Conscience is something ever present and it controlls actions.
Fingolfin, having the above explained understandings and beliefs, would act not driven by a thought but by conscience – that particular part of the mind that is more commonly named understanding and belief.
Besides, when you say: "Fingolfin was not sitting still thinking planning his actions coolly and rationally.", I fully agree !
This is why I claim his actions to be NOT cool-head-taken intention of killing Morgoth but of challenging him!
Please, THERE IS a diference!

(B)
Admittedly, I am being slightly nitpicky, but Melkor had no choice as to his form after destroying the Two Trees. Melkor had been diminished, so that he was no longer equal to the other Valar.
You are saying it and I was saying it...because Tolkien had said it:
Melkor was diminished in strength ONLY in comparison with the other Valar and his power before.
But in comparison to any Eldar - he was still horrifyingly strong!

And I would like to remind once again to every one participant...
I see a tendence of discussing Fingolfin's actions as if he were a Man?!
Well, let me "break you the news"! ;)
He WAS NOT!

And in my previous post (the long one ) I explained it as much in details as a post in a debate permits.

Inderjit S

02-21-2003, 01:09 PM

Lhun, I'm finding it really difficult to understand what you are trying to say.

Let, me write down the gist of what I understand:

Fingolfin knew his death would help Arda Unmarred-How? Firstly, the assumption that men would be the primary factor in the umarring of Arda is flawed. They may have been in the beggining, but as the Athrabeth says, their nature was changed along with their fall. The Eldar felt the shadow on ALL the hearts of men-the Edain included.

Elves had little knowledge of men, beforehand, as Melkor had told them that they were being usurped from Middle-Earth, for the weaker, mortal race if men. Elves, also held men in somewhat scorn, as Finrod asserts, and it is doubtful whether many held the 'belief' of men that I think you are talking about. We cannot know Fingolin's assumptions on the matters, you are just assuming that he thought these things.

And passing to the halls of Mandos wouldn't exactly have been a barrel of laughs for Fingolin, either. Namo, may want to keep him until the end of time, because of his involvment in the rebellion (We kniw he is keeping Finwe and Feanor, until the end) and being locked up in Mandos, isn't an Elven fea's idea of fun.

Melkor may be 'horrifying strong' as you put it- but he was undefeatable.

Nóm

02-21-2003, 01:17 PM

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Our opponents build a great part of their arguments against us on the basis of the word “suicide”, claiming that Fingolfin, being who he was, could by no means commit a foolish act of suicide.
Well you guys did open the debate with an arguement for such suicicide.
A part of our argument has been based on that, but I wouldn't say a great part. I for example center on the fact that Fingolfin was in wrath and despair, and especially a rage of madness. Rage is by definition overwhelming anger, madness is unreason. Because he was full of a rage that drove him to challenge Morgoth, and try to kill him,Fingolfin wasn't thinking about dying. This was pure uncontrollable anger, and hatred and defiance of Morgoth. In a state like that a person's whole mind and body go into an almost animalistic mode of attack. It is driven by a fundamental drive for self-preservation.

Elves could loose the body and the fea would live to be rehoused again one day - but the state of being without a body/hroa is an unnatural one, which is why Iluvatar gave the Valar permission to rehouse elves.
Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Besides, with the Elves, the matters of life and death, hence – of suicide, have quite a different meaning don’t they!

What reason is there to think that an elf would be more willing to give his life based on the reason that he would get his body back one day? By admitting that such thoughts were not in Fingolfin's mind, but only there as conscience and on a subconcious level, you are saying, so it seems to me, that he was unaware of the idea at the time. It then follows that even if this was at work subconsciously through consience – it could not have been deliberate.

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
We are not speaking here of a life foolishly thrown away, but about a SACRIFICE, committed by a proud Noldorian King and a valiant Elf-warrior!
Our opponents ask: “What would he sacrifice his life for?”

I’d boldly say – for the future of the Children of Illuvatar, both Elves and Men in Arda, for the Arda Re-made!
Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Now, THIS is a reason to “die” for! Wouldn’t you agree?!
This contracts the arguements of Anamatar. Both angles can not stand. But as I have said before, in a rage of madness there was no reasoning about it - just drive to defy and kill Morgoth.

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Fea was the essential for the Elves!
No more essential than it is for men. The fea and hroa of an elf are more in harmony with eachother than are the hroa and fea of men. The evles have more control of their hroa with their fea.

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
I understand that some of you might say that at the time Fingolfin rode to Angband to challenge Morgoth to a duel, he did not think about such serious matters as the above.
And of course he did not! But he DIDN’T have to!

Conscience is something ever present and it controlls actions.
Fingolfin, having the above explained understandings and beliefs, would act not driven by a thought but by conscience – that particular part of the mind that is more commonly named understanding and belief.
Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Elfarmari, I explicitly pointed out that Fingolfin's actions were not driven by particular thoughts but by [/i]conscience[/i], by his inner understandings and beliefs.

As I said above, if this was not actual thought, then Fingolfin was unaware and it was therefore not deliberate. As for controlling actions - as i said above, it was an violent action of rage and madness driven by a need to survive.

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
2/ Our opponents also claim that Fingolfin intended to physically destroy Morgoth because he did not fear a Vala, who had become weaker.

This leads to a conclusion that he then wished to preserve the life of his body!
I mean, Morgoth perishes – I (F.) live!
But I somehow fail to find a very good reason why he would care so much for the life of his body, when he had seen those of thousands of his people and of noble elves to have perished and their fear having flown to the Halls of Mandos!

Elves are naturally in bodily form, they would value their hroa as much as men do.

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
And why would he be interested to defeat an enemy on this particular - material level of existence, when he, being an Elf, knew where the real power lay!
Morgoth was in physical form, as was Fingolfin.. I do not see the problem here. Fingolfin's fea was no more strong than Morgoth's than was his hroa. Also, the only way to defeat Morgoth was to destroy his body. Even the mighty Morgoth could only destory the hroa of men and elves... not the fea. Morgoth and Fingolfin where in bodily form and could only attack eachother's hroa/body. Morgoth was only concerned with the physical world at this point.

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
There is no proof whatsoever, that Morgoth had decided to face Fingolfin in a bodily form weak and vulnerable. On the contrary!
I’ll use once again a short part of a quote from the “Lost Road” which I have used already for the same purpose and which our opponents have ignored.
This, of course I find quite understandable, because the words of the Professor can not be disputed!

Can not be disputed? None of my team disputes them.
"there is no proof whatsoever, that Morgoth had decided to face Fingolfin in a bodily form weak and vulnerable."
What do you mean?
That Morgoth was not in bolidy form? We know he was.
That he was not weak and vulnerable?
Weakness is relative. Relative to Fingolfin Morgoth was not weak, but he was in bodily form and was indeed vulnerable as is evident by the wounds dealt to him by Fingolfin.

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
So, to claim that Melkor was an easy prey for Fingolfin can not be proved by indirect assumptions against direct statements.

Besides, even though you provide quotes from various sources to prove Melkor’s weakened strength, it is so ONLY in comparison to his strength before and to the strength of the Valar at the time of his duel with Fingolfin.
No comparison is made between Melkor’s strength and that of the Elves in favour of the Elves. This simply can not be done as these are not comparable in the first place at all!
This was not brought up to support our arguements but to contradict a claim by you guys.
Maedhros provided proof that Melkor was not as strong as he once had been. Simply that. He did so with good reason too... simply to counter this claim by a Tolkienologist:
Yes....he was in bodily form...as were all the Valar seeing how the Valar were the Mighty Ainur who entered the world in PHYSICAL FORM. So Melkor would still have as much power as he had when he and the Valar waged wars in the beginnings of the world.

And no one says that Morgoth was "easy prey". The fact that Morgoth was weakend, is not heavy basis for our arguements, in fact it has nothing to do with the arguements I have submitted.

I do not claim that the chance of Fingolfin defeating Morgoth was any more than next to nothing, Furthermore it is my claim that in his wrath, and rage of madness, Fingolfin would not have realized this, or have cared.

Anamatar IV

02-21-2003, 05:38 PM

Nom, Morgoth was not mighty in comparison to the Eldar and weak to the Valar:

his might was greatest of all things in this world
- The Silmarillion

World. Not Beleriand, not this land, this WORLD. This WORLD includes Aman and the Valar. So apparently, though Morgoth was indeed diminished he was still the mightiest of the Valar. Fingolfin knew of Morgoth's past (obviously) and he knew that he was once greatest of Valar. I think it is safe to assume he knew Morgoth was diminished but also still the mightiest thing imaginable.

Nom, you also argue that an animal like rage was upon Fingolfin and he was bent on killing Morgoth. Look at Fingolfin's fight. He was not animalistic or hot headed at all. He sprang away from Morgoth's blows many times. Someone in an animal like stage of wrath does not battle smartly: he goes in for the kill as fast he can.

Mighty was Fingolgin, high king of the Noldor. Wouldn't you agree? A perfect king: mighty, wise, calm. Maybe that is why the Elves grieved more of his loss than of Feanor's. The Wise King of the Noldor had seen the Valar and their might and the Wise King of the Valar respected their greatness and their power. This is the reason why he was loathe to go with Feanor. He feared the Valar and knew better than to go against their will. If Fingolfin knew that even the entire people of the Noldor could not stand the Valar then why should he think that he alone could kill the greatest of Valar?

Nóm

02-21-2003, 06:08 PM

Originally posted by Anamatar IV
Nom, Morgoth was not mighty in comparison to the Eldar and weak to the Valar:
[quote removed]
World. Not Beleriand, not this land, this WORLD. This WORLD includes Aman and the Valar. So apparently, though Morgoth was indeed diminished he was still the mightiest of the Valar. Fingolfin knew of Morgoth's past (obviously) and he knew that he was once greatest of Valar. I think it is safe to assume he knew Morgoth was diminished but also still the mightiest thing imaginable.
I don't contest the claim that Morgoth was the more mighty than the (other) Valar, I just claim that Fingolfin was not put off by that in his rage of madness.
Originally posted by Anamatar IV
Nom, you also argue that an animal like rage was upon Fingolfin and he was bent on killing Morgoth. Look at Fingolfin's fight. He was not animalistic or hot headed at all. He sprang away from Morgoth's blows many times. Someone in an animal like stage of wrath does not battle smartly: he goes in for the kill as fast he can.
in a rage = hot-headed in my book.

As for battle smartly, I partly agree... but depends what is ment by smartly. Was it exactly smart of Fingolfin to go against Morgoth? Perhaps not, and I do not think he was acting out of smarts but out of wrath and rage.
But you seem to use the term smartly to refer to his physical moves in the battle - reflexes, and motor skills. I strongly disagree that this type of smarts is not a part of animal-like rage. In rage, adrenalin would have been rushing through Fingolfin.. this increases reactions and makes the senses more keen for him to battle. It is all part of the natural defense of our body (fight or flight), when it is in danger our system speeds up for optimal action.
Originally posted by Anamatar IV
If Fingolfin knew that even the entire people of the Noldor could not stand the Valar then why should he think that he alone could kill the greatest of Valar?
It says in the book - a rage of madness (unreason) was upon him.
This was out of despair at the thought that the Noldor would be defeated by Morgoth.
Maybe he could have taken down Morgoth, maybe he couldn't - it doesn't matter. What matters is that in his wrath and rage of madness he thought he could.

Anamatar IV

02-21-2003, 06:21 PM

Originally posted by Nóm

in a rage = hot-headed in my book.

As it is in mine! Read my post again. I never said they weren't the same. On the contrary I said they WERE the same.

As for whether or not Fingolfin thought he could defeat Morgoth, I told you what he probably thought. Read my last post.

Nóm

02-21-2003, 06:51 PM

Originally posted by Anamatar IV
Originally posted by Nóm

in a rage = hot-headed in my book.

As it is in mine! Read my post again. I never said they weren't the same. On the contrary I said they WERE the same.
I was just showing you this...

You claim that a person in rage would be hot-headed.
You say he was not hot-headed.
The book says he was in a rage.

Originally posted by Anamatar IV
As for whether or not Fingolfin thought he could defeat Morgoth, I told you what he probably thought. Read my last post.
Hmm... it still says what it said the last time I read it.

Read my last post. I answered your question in it.

Inderjit S

02-21-2003, 09:22 PM

World. Not Beleriand, not this land, this WORLD. This WORLD includes Aman and the Valar. So apparently, though Morgoth was indeed diminished he was still the mightiest of the Valar. Fingolfin knew of Morgoth's past (obviously) and he knew that he was once greatest of Valar. I think it is safe to assume he knew Morgoth was diminished but also still the mightiest thing imaginable.Anamatar IV

Rubbish. Please check Maedhros post, earlier on. May I ask in which page that quote comes from? Melkor was the mightiest being in Arda until, and a little after, his destruction of the lamps.

Manwe at last faces Melkor again...both are amazed:Manwe to perceive the decrease in Melkoras a person...he has now less personal force then Manwe... HoME 10; Myths Transformed

Even physcially, Melkor is no match for Tulkas, Eonwe, Manwe and maybe Orome, whilst in terms of power, he is no match for any of the Valar.

Nom, you also argue that an animal like rage was upon Fingolfin and he was bent on killing Morgoth. Look at Fingolfin's fight. He was not animalistic or hot headed at all. He sprang away from Morgoth's blows many times. Someone in an animal like stage of wrath does not battle smartly: he goes in for the kill as fast he can. posted by Anamatar IV

Battle wise, this was the best strategy to defeat him. You couldn't just try and slay a giant, by rushing at him. It said Fingolfin was angry, he hadn't lost his head for battle.

Anamatar IV

02-21-2003, 10:55 PM

Rubbish. Please check Maedhros post, earlier on. May I ask in which page that quote comes from? Melkor was the mightiest being in Arda until, and a little after, his destruction of the lamps.

This quote was far after the destruction of the lamps. A few lines down from the quote that this debate is centered upon. So the fact that Melkor was the mightiest thing on earth is, believe it or not, not rubbish.

Even physcially, Melkor is no match for Tulkas, Eonwe, Manwe and maybe Orome, whilst in terms of power, he is no match for any of the Valar.

So we agree that a Vala or Eonwe could beat Melkor. Now can we revert back to the topic of the debate....and ELF beating Melkor.

Inderjit S

02-22-2003, 01:29 PM

So we agree that a Vala or Eonwe could beat Melkor. Now can we revert back to the topic of the debate....and ELF beating Melkor

Yes, it is possible, since both are incarnates, thus each could be slain.

Lhunithiliel

02-22-2003, 04:53 PM

“Lhun, I'm finding it really difficult to understand what you are trying to say.”
This is the problem with the long posts! You say a lot of things and try to develop the line of your thoughts, but sometimes words fail to express fully what is there in the mind! Right? ;)

Let’s see if I can now throw some light on my thoughts.

The reason I brought up the matters of death and life, understandings and beliefs, conscience and actions concerning the Eldar, was to show a few things:
1/ As I pointed out, there is an obvious tendency of analysing Fingolfin’s actions from a point of view of Men (who we are !). And this is wrong!

Analyzing the understandings and beliefs of the elves of Fingolfin’s generation, concerning in particular the matters of life and death, leads IMO to a conclusion that Elves found it not so frightening to part from their bodies. Of course, they cherished the harmonic existence of the body – soul – ensemble. But they did not experience the same desperate fear as Men did, when it was or had to be disrupted.
This leads me to a conclusion to assume that when Finglofin rode to Angband to challenge M. he was so much in rage and despair, that he was ready to SACRIFICE this ensemble without hesitation.

2/ For what?
I brought up the issue of Arda Re-made as one of the reasons.

The belief about the possibility of Arda Re-made (not Arda Unmarred) is the belief of Elves that they can be saved from annihilation IF Arda has the chance of being saved from complete destruction through Men’s role, as envisaged by Eru himself. I understand this as some kind of “religion”, or call it a spiritual, mental belief Elves had as was their estel in Eru itself.

Here are the beliefs of the Quendi that speak of :
“…a fea which is here but a traveller is wedded indissolubly to a hroa of Arda; to divide them is a grievous hurt, and yet each must fulfil its right nature without tyranny of the other. Then this must surely follow: the fea when it departs must take with it the hroa. And what can this mean unless it be that the fea shall have the power to uplift
the hroa, as its eternal spouse and companion, into an endurance everlasting beyond Ea, and beyond Time? Thus would Arda, or part thereof, be healed not only of the taint of Melkor, but released even from the limits that were set for it in the "Vision of Eru" of which the Valar speak.
'Therefore I say that if this can be believed, then mighty indeed
under Eru were Men made in their beginning….”
Now, assuming that the Elves of Fingolfin’s generation DID have these beliefs and hopes = “the religion of Elves”(and I have a strong reason to believe it was precisely so!), I understand Fingolfin’s actions as of an Elf not frightened to let the body perish, for his soul will be freed to later “uplift”.

3/ Now, Inderjit S. says:
:“Elves had little knowledge of men, beforehand”
I already gave accounts on the years, but here is something more:
“…we Eldar are your kinsmen, and your friends also (if
you will believe it), and we have observed you already through three lives of Men with love and concern and much thought.”
This means to me, that the Noldor and the other Eldar have learned MUCH about Men and that the above assumed “religious” beliefs were well spread among the Elves in the time of Dagor-Bragollach.

These elvish “religious” beliefs plus their faith in Eru were the only valuable thing for F. in that hour of total despair.

4/ I explicitly made it clear that F. of course did not THINK about all this on his wild ride to Angband.
His actions were driven NOT by thought at all, but by emotions!
F. was NOT driven by ANY thought! A thought, IMO, is a result of a mental activity involving reason and analyses. THESE definitely do not function in a state of the mind when feelings dominate. And feelings dominate on a sub-conscience level. Hence, NO THOUGHT could have driven F. to challenge M. but CONSCIENCE! Or rather – sub-conscience. And as I tried to explain it in my previous posts, sub-conscience is the “home” for feelings and emotions, NOT of reason.
Therefore, I am lead to the conclusion that if F. was not driven by reason (= thought=intention) but by emotions (= sub-conscience=beliefs), he could not have taken his decision to challenge M. for the purpose of killing him based on a cool-reasoned intention.

Therefore, I can’t accept the assumption that F. thoughtfully and reasonably intended to kill M.
He simply could not have believed that it could have ever been possible!

There is something we ALL agree on. In one way or another, we ALL state that he was driven by wrath, despair, madness, rage… which are all sub-conscious factors.

So, PRESENT sub-conscience, hence - NO reason, hence - NO thought, hence – NO intention.

This is how I see the logic behind F.’s actions.

And those burning eyes and his furious outlook resembling Orome etc. – thus can look only someone driven by strong inner belief – the belief I wrote about above.

To draw the line here, I would like to say….

To me it sounds totally crazy and out of any logic to assume that F. intended to challenge M. with the hope of surviving out of this duel!
***********
Oh! It all resulted in another long post and I even could not address all the arguments brought up by our opponents!
I am sorry!

BTW, when does this debate finish?
It has just started to be exciting!

Nóm

02-22-2003, 05:24 PM

The quote is Finrod speaking his theory/speculation occurring to him that very moment, as a result of what Andreth had just said. It was not a common belief among elves. Just moments before that quote, Finrod said that one would suppose that the hroa would never leave Arda, being made of it. It was with the coming of the new idea of the hroa leaving Arda which lead to those thoughts by Finrod.

At any rate, I do not doubt that elves would view death differently than men, I just doubt that Fingolfin was planning to to die while in his rage. Surely he was not deliberately giving his life, as this would have required thought, and you say yourself that he was not using reason.

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
To draw the line here, I would like to say….

To me it sounds totally crazy and out of any logic to assume that F. intended to challenge M. with the hope of surviving out of this duel!
Well Fingolfin was being "crazy" as he was in a rage of madness.

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
There is something we ALL agree on. In one way or another, we ALL state that he was driven by wrath, despair, madness, rage… which are all sub-conscious factors.

So, PRESENT sub-conscience, hence - NO reason, hence - NO thought, hence – NO intention.

This is how I see the logic behind F.’s actions.
Your arguement is dependant upon something that I disagree with: no reason = no intention

That is not so.

When someone is drowning they are not reasoning, but we can be damn sure they have intention - get some air. While they may not be thinking with reason, they are aware of those intentions.
A number of other activies outside of drowning are the same, the body is working but reasoned thought is not taking place.
The body always has intention and especially during times when it is stimulated by chemicals released during moments of high emotion or impulse, such as rage.
Fingolfin was not using reason in his rage, but he was well aware of his intention to kill Morgoth.

Elfarmari

02-22-2003, 08:20 PM

Therefore, I am lead to the conclusion that if F. was not driven by reason (= thought=intention) but by emotions (= sub-conscience=beliefs), he could not have taken his decision to challenge M. for the purpose of killing him based on a cool-reasoned intention.

I completely agree with this statement. Fingolfin could not have made his decision to challenge Morgoth with the intention to kill him based on cool reasoning. Neither could he and decide to make a deliberate act to end his own life (i.e. commit suicide) if he could not think clearly. If Fingolfin was being ruled by emotions alone, he would not have been able to deliberately choose to end his own life.

Lhunithiliel

02-23-2003, 07:02 AM

Nom:
The quote is Finrod speaking his theory/speculation occurring to him that very moment, as a result of what Andreth had just said. It was not a common belief among elves. Just moments before that quote, Finrod said that one would suppose that the hroa would never leave Arda, being made of it. It was with the coming of the new idea of the hroa leaving Arda which lead to those thoughts by Finrod.

>> Men came to Beleriand in year 305 of the FA and the Elves "have observed you (Men) already through three lives of Men with love and concern and much thought.”

>>The Andreth was held in the year 409 of the First Age.

>> Dagor-Bragolach > F."s death - in the year 455-456 of the FA.

The younger a "religion" - the stronger. Just remember what Christianity meant in its dawn!
*****
Nom:I just doubt that Fingolfin was planning to to die while in his rage
Elfarmari:
I completely agree with this statement. Fingolfin could not have made his decision to challenge Morgoth with the intention to kill him based on cool reasoning. Neither could he and decide to make a deliberate act to end his own life (i.e. commit suicide) if he could not think clearly. If Fingolfin was being ruled by emotions alone, he would not have been able to deliberately choose to end his own life.
I think that I have MORE THAN ONCE proved that F. acted by no previous plan, plot or whatever reasonable intentions!
His mental state was ruled by sub-conscious factors only, NOT cool intentions or plans !
*****

I know we all would enjoy a discussion on the issues of the Atrabeth, but that would be better done in a separate discussion :)

Nóm

02-23-2003, 07:56 AM

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
The younger a "religion" - the stronger. Just remember what Christianity meant in its dawn!

I see no reason to think that Finrod's ideas at that moment would have become a 'religion' among elves.

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
I think that I have MORE THAN ONCE proved that F. acted by no previous plan, plot or whatever reasonable intentions!
His mental state was ruled by sub-conscious factors only, NOT cool intentions or plans !
If Fingolfin was as you say, only subconciously thinking that he would die, it would not have been a deliberate giving of his life. What counts is what Fingolfin was aware of his intentions as being, he was aware of his intention to kill Morgoth.
Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
I know we all would enjoy a discussion on the issues of the Atrabeth, but that would be better done in a separate discussion :)
Well your team has brought the Athrabeth into it, and (imo) misused it in saying that Finrod's thoughts were a religion among elves. Even if it were a religion I do not see why this would have made Fingolfin more willing to intentionally end his life, but regardless of his beliefs existing in his subconcious mind - any elf would have always had his/her beliefs in his/her subconscious mind, even when going off in a rage of madness to challenge someone much greater against huge odds.

I'm not sure, but I think the debate ends on the 23rd.

Anamatar IV

02-23-2003, 07:18 PM

Why would Fingolfin think he could defeat Morgoth when he was already told by Manwe that no Elf could?

Vala he is, thou saist. Then thou hast sword in vain, for none of the of Valar canst thou overcome now or ever within the halls of Ea.

The Silmarillion, of the flight of the Noldor

Fingolfin was nearby when the messenger of Manwe said these words. So thus we are lead to believe that Fingolfin knew he could not defeat Morgoth and would die trying.

So why argue against something that is right there in the text? The Elves and Feanor and Fingolfin were told than none of them could overcome Morgoth. Straight from the mouth of Manwe straight from the hand of Tolkien.

Inderjit S

02-23-2003, 08:50 PM

Originally posted by Anamatar IV
Why would Fingolfin think he could defeat Morgoth when he was already told by Manwe that no Elf could?

The Silmarillion, of the flight of the Noldor

Fingolfin was nearby when the messenger of Manwe said these words. So thus we are lead to believe that Fingolfin knew he could not defeat Morgoth and would die trying.

So why argue against something that is right there in the text? The Elves and Feanor and Fingolfin were told than none of them could overcome Morgoth. Straight from the mouth of Manwe straight from the hand of Tolkien.

Manwe also told the Noldor not to go into exile. Did they listen? No. Fingolfin was as proud as any Noldor, and few of them listened to Manwe's advice.

Lhunithiliel

02-23-2003, 09:32 PM

Manwe also told the Noldor not to go into exile. Did they listen? No. Fingolfin was as proud as any Noldor, and few of them listened to Manwe's advice.
Lost cause! - Precisely!
This can leave somebody with no hope but the purest of them all!
This is definitely NOT a state of mind when someone still sees a way out!
So why argue against something that is right there in the text?
Yes, Anamatar, my faithful team-mate! :)
And let me bring forth ONCE AGAIN what the book says:

1/ the Noldor did not yet comprehend the fullness of the power of Morgoth, nor understand that their unaided war upon him was without final hope, whether they hasted or delayed

2/it is said that he took not the challenge willingly; for though his might was greatest of all things in this world, alone of the Valar he knew fear. But he could not now deny the challenge before the face of his captains; for the rocks rang with the shrill music of Fingolfin's horn, and his voice came keen and clear down into the depths of Angband;

3/ Therefore Morgoth came, climbing slowly from his subterranean throne, and the rumour of his feet was like thunder underground. And he issued forth clad in black armour; and he stood before the king like a tower, iron-crowned and his vast shield, sable unblazoned, cast a shadow over him like a storm cloud.
What a more picturesque and clear description of the moment of sacrifice there could ever be?!!!!

Killing Morgoth, you say? This was what Fingolfin intended?

Hmmm....
Try to kill a God!

Turgon

02-23-2003, 10:17 PM

Just a quick note to let you all know that this debate is scheduled to end tomorrow (24th Feb) at 6.00pm GMT. Judging will begin soon after - but there is more than enough time to get your closing statements in...

Maedhros

02-23-2003, 10:42 PM

Why would Fingolfin think he could defeat Morgoth when he was already told by Manwe that no Elf could?
The question that you got to ask yourself is that is Manwë infallible? The answer is no.
From Morgoth's Ring: Converse of Manwë and Eru
Eru 'accepted and ratified the position' - though making it plain to Manwë that the Valar should have contested Melkor's domination of Middle-earth far earlier, and that they had lacked estel: they should have trusted that in a legitimate war Eru would not have permitted Melkor so greatly to damage Arda
Remember too that it was the Messenger of Manwë that told the Ñoldor that the Valar would not aid them in their fight against Morgoth but they did help them when Fingon called for aid to Manwë.
From the Published Silmarillion: Of the Return of the Noldor
And seeing no better hope he cried to Manwë, saying: 'O King to whom all birds are dear, speed now this feathered shaft, and recall some pity for the Noldor in their need!'
His prayer was answered swiftly. For Manwë to whom all birds are dear, and to whom they bring news upon Taniquetil from Middle-earth, had sent forth the race of Eagles, commanding them to dwell in the crags of the North, and to keep watch upon Morgoth; for Manwë still had pity for the exiled Elves
The Elves and Feanor and Fingolfin were told than none of them could overcome Morgoth. Straight from the mouth of Manwe straight from the hand of Tolkien.
Manwë was told by Ilúvatar that he made a big boo boo. Straight from the mouth of Ilúvatar straight from the hand of Tolkien.
Now to adress Lhun's post:
As you have said
1. the Ñoldor didn't know the full power of Morgoth
2. When Morgoth came to fight against Fingolfin he was afraid.

It's very simple actually. Fingolfin came to a point after the Dagor Bragollach that he knew that the Ñoldorian tactics employed against Morgoth would not work. What is the logical thing to do when that happens? Choose another tactic of course.
He decided to attack Morgoth himself one on one and to end this war there.
There are several interesting things in the description too.
1. Fingolfin rose himself to a level that he was compared to Oromë. Would a man commiting suicide would raise to that level, that Morgoth's servants fled before him? Nooperz.
2. Fingolfin wounded Morgoth 7 times with his sword.
3. When Fingolfin was being crushed by Morgoth, he made one desperate effort and wounded him.
Are these the actions of an elf comitting suicide? Nooperz.

Lhunithiliel

02-24-2003, 08:16 AM

Maedhros:
Fingolfin came to a point after the Dagor Bragollach that he knew that the Ñoldorian tactics employed against Morgoth would not work. What is the logical thing to do when that happens? Choose another tactic of course.
He decided to attack Morgoth himself one on one and to end this war there.
My Prince ;) , it is the second time I read you say that after F. saw that the original plans of defeating the enemy failed, he turned to "plan B".
But then we come again to the question - Do you wish to say that F. had planned all that right from the beginning? - I mean - Do you believe that F. had thought that IF "plan A " doesn't succeed there is a "plan B"? I doubt it very strongly!
F. had participated in many battles before and he knew the risks, true. But what M. launched agaist them and the outcome of this - that was monstruous and totally unexpected. Hundreds of elves and their allies - dead, lands - devastated... What F. felt at that point was only wrath and despair, having seen the total loss and defeat, having realized the folly of the Noldorian wars towards an enemy far stronger for them to defeat, having understood how wrong it is to fight for an unjust cause...
In such state of mind, I see his actions as driven by pure emotions.
But in fact, I guess, all of us agree on this.

Now what our team believe is that the decision to challenge M. on part of F. was an outcome and result of this precise state of mind - a desperate man seeking for a desperate death. But also a proud Noldo seeking for a noble and worthy death!

Therefore, although F. realized how desperate his attempt was, he threw himself into that duel unwillingly, for "for though his might was greatest of all things in this world, alone of the Valar he knew fear. But he could not now deny the challenge before the face of his captains.

So, there you see, we have to destinguish between the motives for challenging M on one hand and his behaviour during the duel itself. I think the above quote, as well as all other posted opinions prove it directly and clearly.

Finally, on my behalf, I would like to say that I see F's decision to challenge M. was an act of desperation.
His valiant behaviour during the duel was one of a proud Noldorian King, who used his last chance to defend the honour of his people in the face of the world.
I see his decision to challenge M. not as a clear and cool-head-taken decison or/and alternative of his war-plans but as a brave sacrifice.
And finally, I would also like to point out sth. that I tried to explain - Fingolfin was a High Noldo, one who had lived among the Valar and one who knew the might of Melkor. At that point of full destruction and fall of all ideas, causes and attempts, he understood that Melkor iwas not a match for even the most valiant Eldar. The only possible thing to do was to try to wipe the shame and the guilt from the destiny of the Noldor, by undertaking a sure death-bringing act. You call it a suicide.
I call it SACRIFICE!

Nóm

02-24-2003, 05:21 PM

When Fingolfin, the mighty king of the Noldor learned that many of his people had been defeated; that Aegnor and Angrod were were gone, the sons of Feanor were scattered, all even by the enemy who killed his father, he beheld the utter ruin of the Noldor.
Fingolfin envisioned the defeat that would be if things continued as they had been. He despaired and thought to put an end to it himself. He was a proud and mighty warrior filled with rage and wrath against Morgoth, the black enemy of the world, who he thought now to kill. It was enough already of his people dying, Fingolfin would take care of it himself, with a terrible blow to the source of the evil, he expected to defeat Morgoth. He rode surging with such power because of wrath and rage that his passing was like that of Orome, his spirit must have been enraged and on fire as he rode alone up to the enemy's hide-out and sounded his horn and beat up the gates and named Morgoth as the coward and master of slaves that we was, and Fingolfin challenged Morgoth to come forth so that he could destory him, and save his people the ruin that Morgoth would otherwise inflict upom them. Morgoth came and Fingolfin fought long. Only after Fingolfin grew weary of leaping from the path of Grond and after wounding Morgoth seven times so that Morgoth cried in anguish whereat the hosts of Angband fell to their faces in dismay, was he forced to the ground; but three times he got up bearing his broken sheild. Fingolfin stumbled and fell to Morgoth's feet, and as he was being crushed by Morgoth's foot that was like that weight of a fallen hill, he hewed it with a last desperate stroke.

Would an elf looking for death, have borne up a broken sheild while weary in battle?

There is no way that anyone short of determination to live would have done that. He was determined to stay alive and keep fighting until Morgoth was dead.

Fingolfin fought and even defended himself to the death for his people in attempt to kill Morgoth.

The odds may have looked to be against Fingolfin because of Morgoth's might, but this would by no means stop him from doing what he was so intent upon doing, and expected to accomplish in his rage and wrath that was so powerful in his determination that none could restrain him - killing Morgoth.