The cottage of lost lore

[Ithrynluin]

I would like this to be the place for any questions, wonderings, speculations, or unanswered questions that you might have on any of Tolkien's books...

Whatever theory you create, share it with us and we will discuss it!:)

Let me start...

There is a well known dispute about Círdan, whether he was one of the original Elves that awoke near Cuivienen or not.
The biggest arguement for his not being a first generation elf is that he did not seem to have a spouse (and it is said that 72 couples awoke at Cuivienen).

But what if he had a spouse, and she decided to leave for Aman, while he himself decided to stay at Ossë's bidding, and for his love of the Sea and Middle Earth.

What do you think?


CONTENTS:

page 1:

- Is Cirdan one of those that awoke by Cuivienen
- Fingolfin's hair colour
- Why did Galadriel choose Celeborn over Celebrimbor

page 2:

- What kind of creature was Goldberry
- Was Miriel's decision to NOT to return to life, a good or bad one
- How did Sauron manage to salvage the One Ring from the destruction of Numenor?
- What did Gandalf mean by referring to Frodo "He may become like a glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can" ?

page 3:

- Frodo: a glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can?
- Arwen's "gift" to Frodo
- Gollum in Aragorn's captivity
- The Elvish waters of Baranduin
- The 'good fortune' that went with Gandalf

page 4:

- What if Arvedui II had been elected King of Gondor by the Gondorian lords

[Inderjit S]

Cirdan is said to be a relative of Thingol, so that rules him out from being a First generation Elf.

In the final conception, on a essay on Cirdan in PoME ,it is the Valar who convince him to stay, after he is drawn to Tol Erresea. Thugh Osse still problably was the first person to tell him to stay, the Valar problably 'warned' him when he desired to depart.

[Ithrynluin]

I think it says something like "Cirdan was akin to Elwë and Olwë".

Possibility #1
Why does his being a relative of theirs rule out this possibility?
He could have been their (great) grandfather for example.

Possibility #2
And were none of those 72 couples "akin" to one another? They must have been since a share of these couples formed the Teleri, the Vanyar and the Noldor (and the Avari). So couldn't Cirdan be a "member" (for lack of a better word) of one (Telerin) couple, and Olwë/Elwë descendants of another (Telerin) couple? That would sort of make them relatives...

Don't bite my head off, I'm just specualting. After all, this is a place for ludicrous theories.;)

[Inderjit S]

If Cirdan was a great-grandfather or grandfather of Elwe, then I think that Cirdan may have led the Teleri, instead of Olwe. It also would've most likely been mentioned somewhere. Kinsmen, doens't usually equal father, granfather etc.

[Ithrynluin]

But he was acknowledged as a great leader of the Teleri - he led the Falathrim. Maybe he refused to be overall leader of the Teleri (he would have to go to Aman as an ambassodor of his people, but he didn't want to do that since he would stay in Middle Earth for so long).

[jallan]

The story of the 144 first awakend Elves is described by Tolkien as an "Elvish fairy-tale", a children's story, not really history.

At the time he wrote it Tolkien had rejected the "Quenta Silmarillion" as a true history of his world. Instead it was to be taken as partly authentic Elvish tradition, but partly mixed mixed with legends of Men, whence legends of the creation of Sun and Moon after the beginnings of history.

In "The Shibboleth of Fëanor" (in The Peoples of Middle-earth (HoME 12)), we find that statement:Few of the oldest names of the Eldar are recorded, except those of the four leaders of the hosts on the Great Journey: Ingwë of the Vanyar; Finwë of the Noldor; and the brothers Elwë and Olwë of the Teleri.Tolkien, now taking the Silmarillion account as not necessarily true in all things -- as certainly false in some matters -- preferred to cast a veil of mystery over any "true" early history of the Elves and their origins.

The question of Finwë's ancestry does emerge, if we take the tale of the 144 first ELves as having any kind of truth, for since Finwë only fell in love and married Míriel in Valinor, she seemingly could not be a pre-ordained spouse beside whom Finwë lay when he first awakened.

In "Shibboleth" Tolkien says of Míriel:The names of her kin are not recorded.This again indicates a reluctance to go farther than his own earlier Silmarillion material.

In this mazy situation speculation about Círdan's origin seems to me to be fraught with difficulties.

[Ithrynluin]

Few of the oldest names of the Eldar are recorded, except those of the four leaders of the hosts on the Great Journey: Ingwë of the Vanyar; Finwë of the Noldor; and the brothers Elwë and Olwë of the Teleri.

For some reason, none of these Elves strike me as being older than Círdan, let alone being those Elves that awoke at Cuivienen.

Just my opinion, and this thread IS about speculation...even if we don't reach any substantial conclusion.:)

[Inderjit S]

To be honest, I don't think that any First Generation Elves survived, or at least none went on the great journey, since Tolkien says that they couldn't control, their fea.

Here are a few more speculative questions:

1. Why is Fingolfin usally dpecietd as having golden hair. I always thought the was dark-haired, as were his children Fingon (Who wore his hair in braids), Aredhel and Argon, though I'm unsure of Turgon's hair. And I though that Finarfin's house was the only Princely Noldorin house to have Golden hair? (With the exception of Idril, of course, though her mother was a Vanyar.)

2. Why on earth did Galadriel choose Celeborn over Celebrimbor?

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Inderjit S

1. Why is Fingolfin usally dpecietd as having golden hair. I always thought the was dark-haired, as were his children Fingon (Who wore his hair in braids), Aredhel and Argon, though I'm unsure of Turgon's hair. And I though that Finarfin's house was the only Princely Noldorin house to have Golden hair? (With the exception of Idril, of course, though her mother was a Vanyar.)

2. Why on earth did Galadriel choose Celeborn over Celebrimbor?

1. I always pictured him as having dark hair too. Isn't it stated somewhere that only Finarfin and his sons and daughter "inherited" the golden hair of Indis?

2. I myself am quite pleased that Galadriel "went native":p and fell in love with a "simple" Elf. She sort of proved that you fall in love with someone for their personality, not their royal heritage or whatever. She also met Celeborn much sooner I think (in Doriath) and Elves mate for life. She probably met Celebrimbor when she and Celeborn led the company of Elves over the Ered Luin, and Celebrimbor was said to be in that company.

[Inderjit S]

Celebrimor was born in Aman, as the Shibboleth states that none of Feanor's sons wives went with them into exile. Wouldn't they have met there?

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Inderjit S
Celebrimor was born in Aman, as the Shibboleth states that none of Feanor's sons wives went with them into exile. Wouldn't they have met there?

Ah of course! Then I she just didn't fall for his personality. I guess she preferred the Telerin characteristics better then. She was half Telerin herself after all.

Also, regarding Cirdan's wife not being mentioned: someone reminded me that there were many prominent elven figures whose wives didn't get a mention: Olwë, Orodreth, Fingon, Thranduil... The spouses either had to do something important to be mentioned or be affected by something important (e.g.: Celebrian).

[Inderjit S]

1. Celeborn was Sindarin. Unless you want to take the essay in U.T, which would introduce good old incest into the relationship. ;) It depends on which one you take really. The Telerin story is his latest view (I believe), but I still go for the Sindarin one.

2. Fingon was never married.

"Findekano (Quenyarin for Fingon) had no wife or child" -Shibboleth of Feanor.

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Inderjit S
1. Celeborn was Sindarin. Unless you want to take the essay in U.T, which would introduce good old incest into the relationship. ;) It depends on which one you take really. The Telerin story is his latest view (I believe), but I still go for the Sindarin one.

2. Fingon was never married.

"Findekano (Quenyarin for Fingon) had no wife or child" -Shibboleth of Feanor.

1. No, I'm going by Celeborn being an Elf of Doriath. We can call him Sindarin, but that is still a sub-division of the Telerin nation.

2. Of course, I was only going by the published Silmarillion. This isn't even that important, since I was only naming people who didn't have a wife.

[Inderjit S]

1. No, I'm going by Celeborn being an Elf of Doriath. We can call him Sindarin, but that is still a sub-division of the Telerin nation

The Sindar didn't see the light of the trees, thus they are not Eldar, whereas the Teleri did. Big diffrence Though they are a sub-division.

Of course, I was only going by the published Silmarillion. This isn't even that important, since I was only naming people who didn't have a wife.

They didn't not have a wife-they just weren't mentioned.

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Inderjit S
[B]The Sindar didn't see the light of the trees, thus they are not Eldar, whereas the Teleri did. Big diffrence Though they are a sub-division.

As you asked why Galadriel married Celeborn instead of Celebrimbor...I answered that she chose Celeborn, since his Telerin characteristics were more attractive to her perhaps.
The fact that Celeborn DID NOT see the Two Trees does absolutely nothing to radically change his Telerin personality.

They didn't not have a wife-they just weren't mentioned.

Could we stop the nit picking? This was clearly a careless error on my part, but since I did say "there were many prominent elven figures whose wives didn't get a mention" in one of the previous post, there really was no need to correct me.

[Inderjit S]

Could we stop the nit picking? This was clearly a careless error on my part, but since I did say "there were many prominent elven figures whose wives didn't get a mention" in one of the previous post, there really was no need to correct me. [/B][/QUOTE]

Nit-picking is my job. :D

[Tar-Elenion]

Originally posted by Inderjit S
The Sindar didn't see the light of the trees, thus they are not Eldar, whereas the Teleri did. Big diffrence Though they are a sub-division.
The Sindar were Eldar. The Eldar were those Elves (and their descendants) who set out on the Great Journey, whether they completed it or not.

[Ithrynluin]

Okay new question:

Rather than wondering what kind of creature Tom Bombadil was, I would like to ask this - Are Tom and Goldberry the same kind of being? Would you put them in the same category/race? Why (not)?

[jallan]

One might expect Golberry’s mother River-woman to be one of the Maiar.

There is a suggestion that such spirits inhabit waters in Tolkien, but nothing that firmly indicates it, e.g. Gandalf does not do the natural thing of calling up the spirit who inhabits the pool before Moria, to ask about the changes there.

We are told:... for though it is otherwise in Aman, in Middle-earth the Maiar have seldom appeared in form visible to Elves and Men.Why this might be is never told. Also:Ulmo nonetheless took thought for them,aiding the counsel and will of Manwë; and his messages came often to them by stream and flood. But they have not kill in such matters, and still less had they in those days before they had mingled with the Elves. Therefore they loved the waters, and their hearts were stirred, but they understood not the messages.Useless, useless Valar and Maiar!

I think part of the problem is the Tolkien wanted mythological gods but didn’t want religious gods.

No sacrificing of chickens to Oromë who didn't want them anyway, and wouldn't even know about the sacrifice unless he happened to be on one of his trips to Middle-earth and happened to be right beside the sacrifcer.

Of course, Tolkien later, after The Lord of the Rings was completed, decided that there would be no children of the Valar. Could there be children of the Maiar?

Well, Melian had a child, but only after she became fully incarnate in Elven form. Was River-woman also in an incarnate form, or could Maiar breed with Maiar without such form?

Probably not, in Tolkien’s later thought.

But Tolkien was always ready to allow individual exceptions.

Tolkien preferred to leave Tom as an enigma, though he certainly could have cobbled together some explanation if he had to.

Perhaps he preferred to leave Goldberry and her mother as enigmas also, as not especially improved by any explanation.

But that Tom was there before the first raindrop suggests he is older than the river, though not necessarily older than a Maia who later dwelt in the river.

[Elendil3119]

Here's my theory about Tom Bombadil:
He is a completely different being set apart from the others, not a Vala, Maia, etc... Tom is the only one of his "kind" ever "created" by Tolkien. He is not all-powerful, nor all-knowing, (not God) but he was there from the beginning.
My thoughts are not completely formulated yet, but I'd appreciate any comments on them.:)

[Idril]

Frodo asks Goldberry, who is Bombadil and she answers "he is".

I think he must be fairly powerful as the ring did not affect him when he put it on. Being all powerful doesn't necessarily mean using the power.

He appears to predate everything - he may be a god - now sitting back and observing or ignoring the goings on in the world.

[Mirabella]

Originally posted by ithrynluin
Okay new question:

Rather than wondering what kind of creature Tom Bombadil was, I would like to ask this - Are Tom and Goldberry the same kind of being? Would you put them in the same category/race? Why (not)?

I reread "In the House of Tom Bombadil" just last night as I pondered my response to this question. I have never been satisfied with the commonly accepted belief that Tom and Goldberry were Maiar, or the even more (IMO) implausible suggestion that they are Valar. What struck me as I read last night, were the many references to nature that were used to describe Tom and Goldberry and their actions.

"her gown rustled softly like the wind"
"the sound of her footsteps was like a stream falling
gently away"
"Tom...whistling like a starling"
"Tom was all in clean blue, blue as rain-washed forget- me-nots"

There are many other such references. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that Tom and Goldberry are in fact, Nature personified, and as such are indeed the same sorts of being.

[Elendil3119]

Although I personally do not believe in "Mother Nature", Tom and Goldberry seem to, as Mirabella stated above, fit that role rather well. Tom Bomdadil came trotting round the corner of the house, waving his arms as if he was warding off the rain...'This is Goldberry's washing day', he said, 'and her autumn-cleaning'. It seems to me as though Goldberry caused the rain to come, which would mean she had power to command the sky. Or possibly it was Tom that commanded it for her?:confused: I'm probably way off here, and I'd appreciate some thoughts/corrections.:)

--Elendil3119--

[jallan]

But they would do well to start early; for weather in that country was a thing that even Tom could not be sure of for long, and it would change sometimes quicker than he could change his jacket. ‘I am no weather-master,’ he said; ‘nor is aught that goes on two legs.’It seems here that Tom, rather than claim control of nature, claims ignorance of what it will do, joining himself with those who go “on two legs”, perhas opposed to beasts who might sense coming weather changes more clearly.

Tom of course was also, according to Tolkien, the spirit of the Berkshire countryside, though probably not really meaning (or only meaning) spirit in its strictly literal sense.

So the Goldberry washing day reference is also an enigma, unless, as is possbble, Goldberry did not know her own mind in such matters before she did what she did.

Tolkien may expect us to consider Tom and Goldberry as the human sides of basically inhuman powers.

Also, Tolkien intended both of them to be mysterious in their origins, abilities and kind. When an author creates a mysterious stranger that being may be just as mysterious to the author as to the reader, for that was the author’s intention.

[Inderjit S]

O.K, how about a new one: Was Miriel's decision to NOT to return to life, a good or bad one, in hindsight?

[Ithrynluin]

Her decision is both good and bad.

Good, because it was the right choice not wanting to return to life, since she experienced much pain through the bearing of Fëanor. Also because if she returned, there would be no children of Indis and Finwë.

Bad, because Fëanor begrudged the marriage of his father ever after and this was a rift within the Noldorin houses ever after.

One small question: Was Fëanor justified in begrudging his father's second marriage?

[Inderjit S]

One small question: Was Fëanor justified in begrudging his father's second marriage?

Yep. Well Feanor was justified in everythign he did. In my opinion anyway. :D
Besdies, Feanor was just misunderstood. He wasn't evil. A bit 'fey' (crazy) as Amrod calls him, but he was till da man so to speak. He was a lot more exciting then say Finrod or Finarfin.

[Ithrynluin]

Alright. New question, whenever you are ready:

How exactly did Sauron manage to salvage the One Ring from the destruction of Numenor? In letter #211, Tolkien tells us that Sauron indeed had the One with him in Numenor, and also

Though reduced to 'a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind', I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended.

How are spirits able to carry material objects? Why should we not question this? Because Tolkien had no appropriate explanation for it? Or something more complex, which I do not seem to grasp?

[baragund]

I'm not sure that Sauron's ability to hang on to his ring after the destruction of Numenor is unique. Gandalf, a fellow Maiar, seemed to be able to do the same thing with his staff and with Glamdring after he "died" falling into the pit of Moria with the Balrog. Another possible example would be the Nazgul who are able to wear clothing, swing swords, ride horses and the like with their spirit bodies.

Maybe it is just one of those nifty things one could do in Middle Earth or maybe the symbiotic relationship between Sauron and the one ring has something to do with it.

[Ithrynluin]

It seems to me that Gandalf did not die in the pits of Moria, but only after his confrontation with the Balrog on the peak of Celebdil. As mundane as it may sound, he could have picked Narya and Glamdring from his old body after he was "reincarnated" as Gandalf the White.

[jallan]

Ithrynluin posted:How are spirits able to carry material objects? Why should we not question this?In Morgoth’s Ring (HoME 10), “Myths Transformed”, VIII, Orcs, Tolkien speculates about Maiar who have become incarnate as Orcs and their deaths:When released they would, of course, like Sauron, be ‘damned’: i.e. reduced to impotence, infinitely recessive: still hating but unable more and more to make it effective physically (or would not a very dwindled dead Orc-state be a poltergeist?).If Tolkien could speculate that a spirits weaker than Sauron might be able to manipulate matter when disembodied, then indeed one might well imagine that the more powerful Sauron would be able to do so, at least enough to carry off the Ring with which he had a psychic link in any case.

[Ithrynluin]

Great answer jallan!

I'd like to ask a new question, but feel free to refer to any past question you'd like. Just because a new one was asked doesn't mean that previous questions can't be tackled further.

From "TLOTR; Many Meetings":

Gandalf moved his chair to the bedside, and took a good look at Frodo. The colour had come back to his face, and his eyes were clear, and fully awake and aware. He was smiling, and there seemed to be little wrong with him. But to the wizard's eye there was a faint change just a hint as it were of transparency, about him, and especially about the left hand that lay outside upon the coverlet.
`Still that must be expected,' said Gandalf to himself. `He is not half through yet, and to what he will come in the end not even Elrond can foretell. Not to evil, I think. He may become like a glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can.'


Quite simply - what do you think Gandalf meant by that?

[Elendil3119]

He may become like a glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can.
I think Gandalf is describing the effect that the knife of the wraith-king could have upon Frodo. If I remember correctly, the bearers of the rings of power were able to be seen by Sauron. It may be that Gandalf is saying that Frodo could become like them, bare to the Eye of Sauron. As YayGollum would say *hides*:rolleyes:

[Feanorian]

I would say he became bare not only to the eye of Sauron but to all of the ring bearers, one must take into account that he is many times weaker in mind, body, and spirit then the other ring bearers not to mention the fact that the One Ring is alot more powerful then the 3 Elven Rings. As well as Ring bearers an obvious change was seen in him by all of the fellowship from when they started out especially Sam. The Ring drained Frodo not only physically and mentally causing him to be weak and ill and everyone could plainly see that.

[baragund]

Ithrynluin,

Perhaps Gandalf was describing the permanent damage done to Frodo as being only to his physical body. Frodo was starting to turn into a wraith before being healed by Elrond but the reference "glass filled with a clear light" could refer to Frodo's spirit, his soul if you will, that was not corrupted by the Witch King's knife.

Jim Z.

[Ithrynluin]

From Letter #154:

...and so certain 'mortals', who have played some great part in Elvish affairs, may pass with the Elves to Elvenhome. Thus Frodo (by the express gift of Arwen) and Bilbo, and eventually Sam (as adumbrated by Frodo); and as a unique exception, Gimli the Dwarf, as friend of Legolas and 'servant' of Galadriel.

Why did Frodo need the "gift" of Arwen? Did Bilbo and Sam (and therefore Gimli) need an elf who would give up his/her place on a ship?
If Arwen hadn't given him this gift would he had been forbidden to depart? I'm sure this is not the case, since Frodo was "special" already, being the main ring bearer so to speak. But why did he need this gift from Arwen then?

[jallan]

I am not sure that one of the Eldar could give up the right to go west.

Arwen and her brothers were Half-elven, special cases who had to choose whether to be Elf or mortal.

I get the impression that Tolkien was being purposely vague, even to himself, on the matter of how and through what channels permission was granted to Frodo (and Bilbo and Sam) to go into the West.

But compare the pleas of Lúthien in The Silmarillion which led to Beren being released from death.

A plea made by Arwen to allow Frodo to go in her place may have been part of the reason why Frodo (and Bilbo and Sam) were allowed to go into the West, but not the whole reason.

There was also Tuor who seems to have been allowed into the West and given the life of the Elves because of his marriage to Idril, at least in Tolkien’s last writings of that point.

It is possible Tolkien would have changed his mind about Tuor’s gaining Elvish longevity in light of his later remarks that it the Valar could not change the doom of Men.

[Inderjit S]

jallan- Wasn't it more Galadriel's 'plea' to the Valar after her rejection of the ring, that allowed Frodo+ Bilbo+ Sam to travel to Valinor?

I've always held the view that Tuor never reached Aman, even though Tolkien says he did, his writings in Myths Transformed seem to contradict this view. And wasn't Idril the sleeper in the tower of pearl?

[jallan]

In The Road Goes Ever On Tolkien wrote on the poem “Namárië”:The last lines of the chant express a wish (or hope) that though she could not go, Frodo might perhaps be allowed to do so.But Tolkien nowhere says in what way word was received that Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam (and later Gimli) were to be allowed to go into the West or what debate might have occurred and who participated.

Note that Tuor in Tolkien’s last writings about his fate did not go to Aman, but only at times to Eressëa. That mortals might come at times to Eressëa was still part of Tolkien’s legendarium even after The Lord of the Rings was published as later writings still mention Ælfwine.

I believe Ælfwine dropped out of the latest accounts because Tolkien decided that it was better to consider the tales of the first and second Ages as Mannish traditions translated by Bilbo, not tales told to Ælfwine by Pengolodh or copied by Ælfwine from written accounts kept in the Lonely Isle.

I doubt Tolkien dropped altogether the idea of humans occasionally coming to Eressëa. He may still have at times entertained thoughs of a tale of Ælfwine even if Ælfwine was no longer supposedly the primary source for Tolkien’s legendarium.

(It would still be possible, though I don’t feel comfortable with it, to imagine that a copy of the augmented Red Book reached the Lonely Isle and that a copy of this was brought back by Ælfwine to Middle-earth, whence we are to imagine a copy came to Tolkien.)

Tuor’s Elvish longevity is to me more of an issue than his being allowed to come at times to Eressëa. That is the real conflict with Tolkien’s later insistance on the inexorable fact of the doom of Men.

In letter 154 Tolkien notes:In this setting the return of Arthur would be quite impossible, a vain imagining.That puzzles me, at least when thinking of traditions of a sleeping Arthur, who might awake and return but still be mortal. But Tolkien might not have been thinking of that tradition here.

Ar-Pharazôn and his host supposedly lie sleeping in Aman until the End.

As to Idril being the Sleeper in the Tower of Pearl, this identificaton only appears once in published writings, in Scheme C of “The Tale of Eärendil” where Christopher Tolkien comments on the awakening of the Sleeper in note 6:Struck out here: ‘The Sleeper is Idril but he does not know.’Apparently the idea was rejected. It seems to me even less probable in the later accounts in which Tuor and Idril set sail from Middle-earth together.

On my first reading of Christopher Tolkien’s Silmarillion the fate of Tuor did bother me, as something that, if indeed what J.R.R. Tolkien intended, ought to be elucidated more clearly.

I still feel so, but J.R.R. Tolkien neither elucidated or changed the account and Christopher Tolkien really could do nothing but let it stand or drop it altogether.

J.R.R. Tolkien could have imagined an eventual drowning of Tuor and Idril being cast into enchanted sleep, but he could have imagined anything, including Tuor being another one of those strange exceptions.

I am also uncertain whether at time time when Tolkien finished The Lord of the Rings that he believed that Frodo and Bilbo and Sam passed over the Sea to eventual death.

Tolkien’s own earliest commentary on the passing, as written to Milton Waldman in 1951 suggests he was then less dogmatic than he later became. The passage is given by Christopher Tolkien in Sauron Defeated (HoME 9), “The Epilogue”, near the end:The Elves and the Three Rings, and Gandalf (Guardian of the Third Age) are going to the Grey Havens, to set sail for the West, never to return. Bilbo is with them. To Bilbo and Frodo the special grace is granted to go with the Elves they loved – an Arthurian ending, in which it is, of course, not made explicit whether this is an ‘allegory’ of death, or a mode of healing and restoration leading to a return.
<snip>
It is hinted that they come to Eressëa.Until the Tolkien’s letters were published, the general assumption by readers was that Bilbo, Frodo and Sam still lived in the West. Buttons with the motto “Frodo Lives!” were available from the Tolkien Society of America, with which Tolkien had some communication through its founder Richard Plotz. But Tolkien apparently never commented on these well-known buttons.

[Ithrynluin]

Upon rereading The Hunt for the Ring in Unfinished Tales, I came across several questions which I would like us to discuss.

1.

According to Aragorn Gollum was taken at nightfall on February 1st. Hoping to escape detection by any of Sauron's spies he drove Gollum through the north end of the Emyn Muil, and crossed Anduin just above Sam Gebir. Driftwood was often cast up there on the shoals by the east shore, and binding Gollum to a log he swam across with him, and continued his journey north by tracks as westerly as he could find through the skirts of Fangorn, and so over Limlight, then over Nimrodel and Silverlode through the eaves of Lórien, and then on, avoiding Moria and Dimrill Dale, over Gladden until he came near the Carrock. There he crossed Anduin again, with the help of the Beornings, and passed into the Forest. The whole journey, on foot, was not much short of nine hundred miles, and this Aragorn accomplished with weariness in fifty days, reaching Thranduil on the twenty-first of March.
It is thus most likely that the first news of Gollum would be learned by the servants of Dol Guldur after Aragorn entered the Forest; for though the power of Dol Guldur was supposed to come to an end at the Old Forest Road, its spies were many in the wood. The news evidently did not reach the Nazgûl commander of Dol Guldur for some time, and he probably did not inform Barad-dûr until he had tried to learn more of Gollum's whereabouts. It would then no doubt be late in April before Sauron heard that Gollum had been seen again, apparently captive in the hands of a Man. This might mean little. Neither Sauron nor any of his servants yet knew of Aragorn or who he was.

It strikes me as particularly strange that the servants of Dol Guldur didn't attack Aragorn and wrest Gollum from his captivity. After all, he was only one man (however great). Moreover, he was only a "Man" to their eyes, so why should this present any troubles for the servants of Sauron? Perhaps they would be more eager to attack if they knew of Aragorn's heritage and importance. Still, I do not understand why they let Aragorn take Gollum into Mirkwood, keeping in mind how important Gollum was to Sauron.

2.

My father nowhere explained the Ringwraiths' fear of water. In the account just cited it is made a chief motive in Sauron's assault on Osgiliath, and it reappears in detailed notes on the movement of the Black Riders in the Shire: thus of the Rider (who was in fact Khamûl of Dol Guldur, see note 1) seen on the far side of Bucklebury Ferry just after the Hobbits had crossed (The Fellowship of the Ring I 5) it is said that "he was well aware that the Ring had crossed the river; but the river was a barrier to his sense of its movement and that the Nazgûl would not touch the "Elvish" waters of Baranduin. But it is not made clear how they crossed other rivers that lay in their path, such as the Greyflood, where there was only "a dangerous ford formed by the ruins of the bridge" (p. 277). My father did indeed note that the idea was difficult to sustain.

What was "Elvish" about Baranduin (Brandywine)? If we take a look at a map of Eriador, we can see that Baranduin originates from Lake Nenuial, which was once the abode of Celeborn and Galadriel, who were mighty among the Eldar. Could this be the "Elvish" touch upon Baranduin?

3.

Then Saruman hastened to the summit of Orthanc – and found Gandalf gone. Away south against the setting moon he saw a great Eagle flying towards Edoras.
Now Saruman's case was worse. If Gandalf had escaped there was still a real chance that Sauron would not get the Ring, and would be defeated. In his heart Saruman recognized the great power and the strange "good fortune" that went with Gandalf.

How do you interpret this 'good fortune' that followed Gandalf? Do you take it as mere good luck or do you think that Gandalf was somehow 'blessed' by Eru or the Valar for staying true and faithful to his mission?

[jallan]

On the matter of servants of Sauron, presumably they had been told to keep a watch out for Gollum and report, but certainly not told why they should do so.

In the chapter The Choices of Master Samwise, Shagrat notes of Gollum:Came out of Lugbúrz the first time, years ago, and we had word from High Up to let him pass.Eventually the servants of Sauron did aid Gollum to escape from the Wood-elves, presumably only after being ordered to do so by commands that came ultimately through Sauron.

As to Gandalf’s good fortune, I think we are to understand Tolkien to mean that Saruman did at some level recognize that Gandalf was being guided by “Providence”, but would not admit it to himself.

[baragund]

I agree with Jallan on the first question. As you may recall from our recent debate, Sauron released Gollum from Barad-dur (unwise move that it was, har har!) hoping that he would lead the way to the Ring. It seems to me that Sauron was only seeing where this unidentified person would take Gollum. Maybe or maybe not toward the Ring. Only when it became apparent that Gollum was imprisoned with Thranduil's people and Gollum was not going anywhere that Sauron decided to act and spring Gollum from jail.

Regarding the second and third questions, I like your take on both of them. It seems plausible that Galadriel and Celeborn would have left some residual effect on the Branywine. Another possibility, do you think that Bucklebury Ferry might have been close enough to the Old Forest that, somehow, there might have been some influence from Tom Bombadil, Goldberry and The River Woman that would have deterred the Nazgul? It's not 'elvish' but it's about as plausible as the Galadriel / Celeborn connection.

I like to think Gandalf had some divine intervention going on, from either Manwe or Eru himself because he was truest to their original mission and truest in his faith and loyalty to the West.

[jallan]

Jimzeller posted:Another possibility, do you think that Bucklebury Ferry might have been close enough to the Old Forest that, somehow, there might have been some influence from Tom Bombadil, Goldberry and The River Woman that would have deterred the Nazgul?Well Bombadil himself says:Tom is not master of Riders from the Black Land far beyond his country.

[baragund]

You're right, Jallan. I forgot about that. I suppose the Galadriel / Celeborn connection is more likely after all. Then again, the Nazgul decided to go ahead and at least try to cross the river at Rivendell. That certainly had more elvish influence than the Brandywine.

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by baragund
Then again, the Nazgul decided to go ahead and at least try to cross the river at Rivendell. That certainly had more elvish influence than the Brandywine.

I think they were just more desperate there to achieve their mission, and that is why they dared to step into the Bruinen. The danger of losing the Ring to the greatest enemies was much more immediate there than at the Brandywine.
But possibly Bruinen is even more "Elvish" than Brandywine, since it is under Elrond's control, and many ages have passed since Celeborn and Galadriel had dwelt at Nenuial, and their Elvish influence on the river might have "worn off".

[Feanorian]

I didnt like how in the movie the river was so low, it was like a stream untill the floods came. I agree with ithrynluin letting the ring come into the posession of the elves of Rivendell was alot worse then letting it get across the Brandywine.

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Feanorian
I didnt like how in the movie the river was so low, it was like a stream untill the floods came. I agree with ithrynluin letting the ring come into the posession of the elves of Rivendell was alot worse then letting it get across the Brandywine.

Yes, portraying a river named Bruinen (meaning Loudwater) like that is very unflattering.;)

[Feanorian]

Yes, portraying a river named Bruinen (meaning Loudwater) like that is very unflattering.

Agreed, happy birthday by the way ithrynluin:cool:

[Inderjit S]

Heres a 'What if' Question, what if Arvedui II had been elected King of Gondor by the Gondorian lords? Here's a what Malbeth the Seer has to say about it:

Arveidui was indeed the last king, as his name signifies, for he will be the last in Arthedain. Though as choice will come to the Dunedain; and if they take the one that seems the less hopeful, then your son will change his name and become king of a great realm....