Debate: King Elessar's choice [Archive]

Gothmog

02-23-2003, 06:16 PM

1427 King Elessar issues an edict that Men are not to enter the Shire, and he makes it a free Land under the protection of the Northern Sceptre. from The Tale of Years: Appendix B.

The question in this debate is Was King Elessar wise to issue this edict?

It is the view of Ost-in-Edhil that Elessar was wise to do so and give here our opening statement.

What could prompt the issuing of this edict? One answer is given in Sauron Defeated, The Epilogue when Same is telling his children that Aragorn is coming north and wants to see his friends in the Shire.
'No,' said Sam. 'But he's coming north. He won't come into the Shire because he has given orders that no Big Folk are to enter this land again after those Ruffians; and he will not come himself just to show he means it. But he will come to the Bridge. And - ' Sam paused. 'He has issued a very special invitation to every one of you. Yes, by name! '
The Hobbits of the Shire have already had problems from Men trying to take over their home. With the opening up of the lands there was likely to be more Men coming to settle in the north. With this in mind the well cultivated land of the Shire would be attractive to many and could lead to much strife if there was no protection for the people who had lived there for so many years.

In making this edict, Elessar was acknowledging the fact that the Shire was the country of the Hobbits and that they should be allowed to have the place that they had carved for themselves in peace. Now it could be said that the arrangement that was to be found in Bree could have been extended to include the Shire:
There were also many families of hobbits in the Bree-land and they claimed to be the oldest settlement of Hobbits in the world, one that was founded long before even the Brandywine was crossed and the Shire colonised. They lived mostly in Staddle though there were some in Bree itself, especially on the higher slopes of the hill, above the houses of the Men. The Big Folk and the Little Folk (as they called one another) were on friendly terms, minding their own affairs in their own ways, but both rightly regarding themselves as necessary parts of the Bree-folk. Nowhere else in the world was this peculiar (but excellent) arrangement to be found. Fellowship of the Ring: At the sign of the Prancing Pony.
However, Since 1601 of the Third Age Hobbits lived in the Shire and since then had had little contact with Men. So can it be considered wisdom to impose upon any people such a great change? Throughout the period that Hobbits inhabited the Shire only a small number would go even as far as Bree. For the most part they wanted only to be allowed to live in peace in their own land. It was also one of the tasks of the Rangers before the War of the Ring to protect the Shire and its inhabitants so this edict is only a continuation of what was being done before.

TheFool

02-26-2003, 03:51 PM

The view of The Periaur is that the edict issued by King Elessar six years after the end of The War Of The Ring was unwise.

In issuing this edict Elessar wished to protect the Hobbits and their land from 'Big Folk', reacting to the occupation of the Shire by Saruman and his forces. At the time, one of Saruman's henchmen remarks
Return of the King: The Scouring of The Shire
'But that won't stop us living in this fat little country where you have lazed long enough!'
This emphasizes only too well that the Hobbits can no longer hide away from the rest of Middle Earth even if they wanted to, as remnants of both Sauron and Saruman's forces are aware of the location of the Shire. With regards to the safety and protection of the Shire from this increased threat, would it not be better if decent Men also lived in the region to provide pro-active rather than reactive protection?
As the Ost-in-Edhil have already pointed out, Bree is the long-standing example of how Men and Hobbits can live together in peace, respecting each other and benefiting from this relationship.
Fellowship of the Ring: At the Sign of the Prancing Pony
There were also many families of hobbits in the Bree-land and they claimed to be the oldest settlement of Hobbits in the world, one that was founded long before even the Brandywine was crossed and the Shire colonized. They lived mostly in Staddle though there were some in Bree itself, especially on the higher slopes of the hill, above the houses of the Men. The Big Folk and the Little Folk (as they called one another) were on friendly terms, minding their own affairs in their own ways, but both rightly regarding themselves as necessary parts of the Bree-folk. Nowhere else in the world was this peculiar (but excellent) arrangement to be found.
This shows that there is no need to ban Men from entering the Shire. There would be more benefits from a mixed society between the two races than there would be from a Hobbit-only one.

Issuing an edict which sets up a virtual barrier between Hobbits and everyone else would surely lead to increased curiosity, jealousy and even resentment from outside. In this time of unity of the Free Peoples, why cut the Hobbits off? It is the perfect time for the Hobbits to create new friendships with other Peoples.
Friendships and interactions between different races have proven extremely beneficial in the past.
An example of this would be the folk of Erebor, Esgaroth and Mirkwood, where three different peoples who had mistrusted each other united to fight a common enemy, which lead to a great renewed, lasting friendship between them. Without this friendship, these races would have perished in the War of the Ring.
There are many more examples of great inter-racial relationships throughout the history of Middle Earth. The Eregion and Khazad-dum interaction caused both parties to benefit greatly from each other.
Return Of The King: Appendix B (The Second Age)
Later some of the Noldor went to Eregion, upon the west of the Misty Mountains, and near to the West-Gate of Moria. This they did because they learned that mithril had been discovered in Moria. The Noldor were great craftsmen and less unfriendly to the dwarves than the Sindar; but the friendship that grew up was the closest that there has ever been between the two races.
Do not forget the interaction between Men, Dwarves and Elves after the War of the Ring, where Gimli and Legolas's folk returned Minas Tirith to it's former glory.
Return Of the King: Appendix A (III)
After the fall of Sauron, Gimli brought south a part of the Dwarf-folk of Erebor, and he become Lord of the Glittering Caves. He and his people did great works in Gondor and Rohan. For Minas Tirith they forged gates of mithril and steel to replace those broken by the Witch-King. Legolas his friend also brought south Elves out of Greenwood, and they dwelt in Ithilien, and it became once again the fairest country in all the westlands.

Hobbit-folk can benefit greatly from interaction with other races, for example, the Hobbit members of the Fellowship had much contact with Men and other races, and because of this, are revered and utterly respected by all Shire-folk and foreigners; one example being:
Return Of The King: Homeward Bound
Butterbur: "But if I may be so bold, you've come back changed from your travels, and you look now like folk as can deal with troubles out of hand."

Now, Ost-in-Edhil have supposed that with 'the opening up of the lands', more Men will be coming to settle in the Shire, creating tension and strife with the existing population. But now that The War Of The Ring is over and much of Middle Earth is becoming safer, what motivations do decent Men have to move to such an out-of-the-way place as the Shire? There are many more lands which they could choose from, where they would not have to compete with other creatures. A good example of this would be Eregion, a land once dwelled in by Elves, but now uninhabited yet fertile and available for re-colonization.

-------edit with permission: corrected title of first quote. Apologies for this edit.

Nóm

02-27-2003, 10:13 PM

Please view this thread (http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?postid=257508#post257508) before continuing the debate.

Thanks

Gothmog

03-01-2003, 09:49 PM

This emphasizes only too well that the Hobbits can no longer hide away from the rest of Middle Earth even if they wanted to, as remnants of both Sauron and Saruman's forces are aware of the location of the Shire. With regards to the safety and protection of the Shire from this increased threat, would it not be better if decent Men also lived in the region to provide pro-active rather than reactive protection? Yes indeed Elessar was looking at protecting the Shire and its inhabitants from 'Big Folk'. As The Periaur have kindly pointed out the remnants of Both Sauron and Saruman's forces know just where is to be found a well cultivated and prosperous land that could be taken over and the people there forced to serve new masters. As for the Pro-active protection, this could be achieved simply by Men living near to the Shire without having them Entering.As the Ost-in-Edhil have already pointed out, Bree is the long-standing example of how Men and Hobbits can live together in peace, respecting each other and benefiting from this relationship.

This shows that there is no need to ban Men from entering the Shire. There would be more benefits from a mixed society between the two races than there would be from a Hobbit-only one. Forgetting of course that the Hobbits of the Shire left this most excellent arrangement to live away from Bree. They had in fact been living as a separate people for many generations had little contact with or knowledge about Men.'I am glad,' said Frodo. 'For I have become very fond of Strider. Well, fond is not the right word. I mean he is dear to me; though he is strange, and grim at times. In fact, he reminds me often of you. I didn't know that any of the Big People were like that. I thought, well, that they were just big, and rather stupid: kind and stupid like Butterbur; or stupid and wicked like Bill Ferny. But then we don't know much about Men in the Shire, except perhaps the Breelanders.'
`You don't know much even about them, if you think old Barliman is stupid,' said Gandalf. 'He is wise enough on his own ground. He thinks less than he talks, and slower; yet he can see through a brick wall in time (as they say in Bree). But there are few left in Middle-earth like Aragorn son of Arathorn. The race of the Kings from over the Sea is nearly at an end. It may be that this War of the Ring will be their last adventure.' From TFotR: Book II: Chaper 1: Many Meetings.

Issuing an edict which sets up a virtual barrier between Hobbits and everyone else would surely lead to increased curiosity, jealousy and even resentment from outside. In this time of unity of the Free Peoples, why cut the Hobbits off? It is the perfect time for the Hobbits to create new friendships with other Peoples. The Edict sets up a barrier between the Shire (that is the land where the Hobbits live) and the land around. The Hobbits were not "Cut Off" but provided with a haven. Since it seems to be clear that the Hobbits did not want to have great contact with others, (it was after all not in the nature of most Hobbits to want change and/or adventures) how could it be that this time was perfect for Hobbits to create new friendships with other Peoples? First it would be necessary for them to become used to having neighbors other than those of Bree (which only a few Hobbits wanted to visit anyway).Friendships and interactions between different races have proven extremely beneficial in the past. And in all these cases the peoples involved each decided for Themselves to be involved in such interaction, they were not forced by the other peoples. Hobbit-folk can benefit greatly from interaction with other races, for example, the Hobbit members of the Fellowship had much contact with Men and other races, and because of this, are revered and utterly respected by all Shire-folk and foreigners; Yes it is true that the Hobbits could benefit greatly from contact and interaction with other races. However, this can only be of benefit if the Hobbits wish to have such contact.Now, Ost-in-Edhil have supposed that with 'the opening up of the lands', more Men will be coming to settle in the Shire, creating tension and strife with the existing population. But now that The War Of The Ring is over and much of Middle Earth is becoming safer, what motivations do decent Men have to move to such an out-of-the-way place as the Shire? There are many more lands which they could choose from, where they would not have to compete with other creatures. A good example of this would be Eregion, a land once dwelled in by Elves, but now uninhabited yet fertile and available for re-colonization. Decent Men would, I agree have few motivations to move in and disrupt the Hobbits of the Shire. However, the main problems that are likely arise from the use of Force against the Hobbits. You no doubt will say that it is not likely that any would take the Shire by force from the Hobbits. To answer that we must first look at what is Force. Certainly what Saruman's minions did was to use force but to make anybody do something that they do not want to do or to stop them from doing what they wish is also to use force.

So we must look now at the wisdom of forcing a people to change against their will. We can agree that there would be benefits to the Hobbits by having contact with other peoples, we can even show by the example of Bree just what those benefits can be. However, if the Hobbits of the Shire wish to be left in peace within the boarders of their land, who then can claim to be wise enough to say that they Must change and change now.

The fact that King Elessar made an Edict banning Men from the Shire does not mean that contact with Men has to be prevented, what it does do is allow that Hobbits can have time to first get used to the idea of Men being near to their land and to calm any fears that they may have about Men. From this can later come the acceptance of Men and then hopefully friendship between the peoples.

TheFool

03-11-2003, 04:30 PM

Yes indeed Elessar was looking at protecting the Shire and its inhabitants from 'Big Folk'. As The Periaur have kindly pointed out the remnants of Both Sauron and Saruman's forces know just where is to be found a well cultivated and prosperous land that could be taken over and the people there forced to serve new masters. As for the Pro-active protection, this could be achieved simply by Men living near to the Shire without having them Entering.
The surviving servants of Sauron and Saruman are the people least likely to take notice of Royal declarations; in effect then, the ones who will obey the Edict are the people most likely to be of benefit to the Hobbits, and those who can offer more protection and safety to the Shire. The Edict still remains as a virtual barrier. If Men are to be left on the outskirts and asked to provide protection for a land they themselves cannot enter, then I suspect they might become lacking in motivation. I agree that Men marching into the centre of the Shire and setting up home would be unfair and insulting to the Hobbits, but I do not think that would happen. I imagine a slow and gradual influx of honest folk beginning to settle on the outskirts of the Shire (where land is actually freely available), steadily mixing in with the Hobbit population - a subtle process.

Forgetting of course that the Hobbits of the Shire left this most excellent arrangement to live away from Bree. They had in fact been living as a separate people for many generations had little contact with or knowledge about Men.
Yes, the Hobbits did leave Bree but not because of any 'problems' with Men, but because they needed more land, as it was becoming overcrowded - and they gradually drifted away from contact.

how could it be that this time was perfect for Hobbits to create new friendships with other Peoples?
Before the War of the Ring, the Shire was a 'secret'; now, Hobbits are known throughout Middle-Earth, and the location of the Shire is known to many more people. With this (new) respect from the other peoples, the Hobbits are in a strong starting position. Perhaps instead of an outright ban, the King could have sent out messengers or declarations to advise and educate peoples living near the Shire about its inhabitants; this would further increase that respect.

The fact that King Elessar made an Edict banning Men from the Shire does not mean that contact with Men has to be prevented, what it does do is allow that Hobbits can have time to first get used to the idea of Men being near to their land and to calm any fears that they may have about Men. From this can later come the acceptance of Men and then hopefully friendship between the peoples.
Yes, but is it wise to start off this relationship with a fence between the two races? If in time things do not work out, then the King always has the power to step in and be more firm. Elessar himself toiled to bring unity to the Free Peoples.

Arvedui

03-12-2003, 10:36 PM

Let me continue on a detail that Gotmog mentioned in his opening post: that King Elessar in reality did nothing more that what the Dúnedain had already done for a number of years, namely to guard the Shire.
This is in my opinion no minor detail, which I will explain:
In ’The Tale of Years,’ the fact that the Shire is closely guarded by the Rangers, is when Saruman’s spies report this about T.A. 3000.

quote:
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c. 3000 The Shadow of Mordor lengthens. Saruman dares to use the palantir of Orthanc, but becomes ensnared by Sauron, who has the Ithil Stone. He becomes a traitor to the Council. His spies report that the Shire is being closely guarded by the Rangers.
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This is before Gandalf suspects that Bilbo’s ring is the One Ring (T.A. 3001), and 44 years after the first time Aragorn meets Gandalf:

quote:
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2956 Aragorn meets Gandalf and their friendship begins
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IMO, this show that the Dúnedain have a special interest in guarding the Shire, even before it is known that Bilbo’s ring is in fact the One. Why could that be? I think the guarding of the Shire is a direct result of the meeting between Aragorn and Gandalf, and something that is done because of Gandalf wanting it to be so. Why is that?
To find the answer to that, I look to ’The Silmarillion:

quote:
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Wisest of the Maiar was Olórin. […] In later days he was the friend of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and took pity on their sorrows; and those who listened to him awoke from despair and put away the imaginations of darkness.
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We also have this from the UT:

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Then Manwë asked, where was Olórin ? And Olórin, who was clad in grey, and having just entered from a journey had seated himself at the edge of the council, asked what Manwë would have of him. Manwë replied that he wished Olórin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth (and it is remarked in parentheses that "Olórin was a lover of the Eldar that remained," apparently to explain Manwë's choice). But Olórin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwë said that that was all the more reason why he should go, and that he commanded Olórin (illegible words follow that seems to contain word "third"). But at that Varda looked up and said: "Not as the third;" and Curumo remembered it.
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Olórin is personally picked by Manwë, and as Varda said it: 'Not as the third.'
Alas, Gandalf is the wisest of the Maiar. He is hand-picked by Manwë to go to Middle-earth. It is therefore my opinion that Gandalf, knowing the Music of Ilúvatar also, had a very spesific meaning with wanting the Shire to be guarded and the Hobbits to be in peace. Which makes it quite believable that King Elessar’s interdict is not only a wise thing, but also the will of Ilúvatar.
From Ainulindalë

quote:
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And thou, Melkor shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite.
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And one more thing about the importance of the Shire, from The Return of the King, The Grey Havens:

So Sam planted saplings in all the places where specially beautiful or beloved trees had been destroyed, and he put a grain of the precious dust in the soil at the root of each. He went up and down the Shire in this labour; but if he paid special attention to Hobbiton and Bywater no one blamed him. And at the end he found that he still had a little of the dust left; so he went to the Three-Farthing Stone, which is as near the centre of the Shire as no matter, and cast it in the air with his blessing. The little silver nut he planted in the Party Field where the tree had once been; and he wondered what would come of it. All through the winter he remained as patient as he could, and tried to restrain himself from going round constantly to see if anything was happening. Spring surpassed his wildest hopes. His trees began to sprout and grow, as if time was in a hurry and wished to make one year do for twenty. In the Party Field a beautiful young sapling leaped up: it had silver bark and long leaves and burst into golden flowers in April. It was indeed a mallorn, and it was the wonder of the neighbourhood. In after years, as it grew in grace and beauty, it was known far and wide and people would come long journeys to see it: the only mallorn west of the Mountains and east of the Sea, and one of the finest in the world. Altogether 1420 in the Shire was a marvellous year. Not only was there wonderful sunshine and delicious rain, in due times and perfect measure, but there seemed something more: an air of richness and growth, and a gleam of a beauty beyond that of mortal summers that flicker and pass upon this Middle-earth. All the children born or begotten in that year, and there were many, were fair to see and strong, and most of them had a rich golden hair that had before been rare among hobbits.
What does this seem to indicate? To me it is that the gift from Galadriel have created the last resemblance of the beauty of Lórien, and this is also one thing that King Elessar wanted to preserve.

Aulë

03-14-2003, 04:10 PM

Arvedui has come to a conclusion that the Shire was being protected by the Rangers from the year 3000 onwards because of reasons other than that of the One Ring being present in the Shire at the time.
I strongly disagree with this theory.

Originally posted by Arvedui
IMO, this show that the Dúnedain have a special interest in guarding the Shire, even before it is known that Bilbo’s ring is in fact the One.

From the very beginning, Gandalf suspected that Bilbo's ring was in fact Sauron's One Ring.

Fellowship of the Ring: Prologue
Gandalf, however, disbelieved Bilbo's first story, as soon as he heard it, and he continued to be very curious about the ring. Eventually he got the true tale out of Bilbo after much questioning, which for a while strained their friendship; but the wizard seemed to think the truth important.

Him asking the Rangers to protect the Shire would have been mainly caused by his curiosity about Bilbo's ring, and that he knew it was ring of great power, with a possibility of it being the One. He knew that Sauron's power was increasing at a great rate, and that it would be wise to 'cover all bases' and have the Shire protected.

Even if Gandalf would have wanted the Shire protected as Ilúvatar wished, he wouldn't have done so by isolating it from the rest of Middle Earth.

Unfinished Tales: The Quest Of Erebor
When Gandalf accepted Thorin's invitation to go with him to his home in the Blue Mountains
'We actually passed through the Shire, though Thorin would not stop long enough for that to be useful. Indeed I [Gandalf] think it was annoyance with his haughty disregard of the Hobbits that first put into my head the idea of entangling him with them. As far as he was concerned they were just food-growers who happened to work the fields on either side of the Dwarves ancestral road to the Mountains.'

Gandalf was annoyed at other races disregard for Hobbits and their ways of life, and as it was shown in Bilbo's journey, he was doing everything possible to enlighten Men, Dwarves and Elves on how Hobbits were not just mere 'food-growers'.

Unfinished Tales: The Quest Of Erebor
'"What!" cried Glóin. "One of those simpletons down in the Shire?'"
'"Now, now!" I said [Gandalf], "that is quite unfair. you do not know much about the Shire-folk, Glòin. I suppose you think them simple, because they are generous and do not haggle; and think them timid because you never sell them any weapons. You are mistaken. Anyway, there is one that I have my eye on for you, Thorin. He is neat-handed and cleaver, though shrewd, and far from rash. And I think he has courage. Great courage, I guess, according to the way of his people. They are, you might say, 'brave at a pinch'. You have to put these Hobbits in a tight place before you find out what is in them.'

Gandalf obviously wanted to show the Hobbits and their qualities to the rest of the world. He knew that by the Hobbit's being confined to their own little 'realm', the other races were coming up with false theories about Hobbits, and they'd (the Hobbits) be better off by interacting with other species.
Obviously with the War of the Ring being over, it would have been the ultimate time to have Hobbits around other species, since there were now very few enemies to now threaten the Hobbits.

During the War of the Ring, the Shire would have benefited greatly from some protection by Men within their borders.

[i]Return of the King: Homeward Bound[i]
'It all comes of those newcomers and gangrels that began coming up the Greenway last year, as you may remember; but more came later. Some were just poor bodies running away from trouble; but most were bad men, full o' thievery and mischeif. And there was trouble right here in Bree, bad trouble. Why we had a real set-to, and there were some folk killed, killed dead! If you believe me.'
'I will indeed,' said Gandalf, 'How many?'
'Three and two,' said Butterbur, referring to the big folk and the little. 'There was poor Mat Heathertoes, and Rowlie Appledore, and little Tom Pickthorn from over the Hill; and Willie Banks from up-away, and one of the Underhills from Staddle: all good fellows, and they're missed. And Harry Goatleaf that used to be on the West-gate, and that Bill Ferny, they came in on the strangers' side, and they've gone off with them; and it's my belief that they let them in. On the night of the fight, I mean. And that was after we showed them the gates and pushed them out: before the year's end, that was; and the fight was early in the New Year, after the heavy snow we had.'
This shows that the Hobbits who lived in Bree with Men benefited from the Men's presence. Unlike the Shire, Bree did not have to put up with the Enemy's bondage since the good Men forced the Wild Men out. If there were Men living in the Shire with the Hobbits, the Wild Men would have been forced out, like they were in Bree.

Now having learnt of this, Elessar should have realised that Hobbit's would not be better of by the continuing isolation from others. He may have meant well, but the edict does more harm than good.

Arvedui

03-16-2003, 01:08 PM

Gandalf was annoyed at other races disregard for Hobbits and their ways of life, and as it was shown in Bilbo's journey, he was doing everything possible to enlighten Men, Dwarves and Elves on how Hobbits were not just mere 'food-growers'.
You obviously think that Gandalf was eager to show Men, Dwarves and Elves that Hobbits should not be disregarded. But the only time Gandalf tries to bring someone fromother races into the Shire, is when he arranges the famous 'unexpected party' in 'The Hobbit.' And I do not believe for one second that Gandalf had a quite different agenda with connecting the Dwarves to Bilbo, than to make it known to the rest of Middle-earth how splendid the Hobbits were.
Keep in mind that Gandalf was not some bloke with special gifts, traveling around Middle-earth and having a good time. He was sent to Middle-earth to help the free people fight evil. IMO, he knew very well what gifts the hobbits had, and he knew that Bilbo would be the best companion for Thorin & Co. But he made that decission based in the need to get rid of Smaug, and rebuild Dale as a fortress against evil from the east, thereby securing the 'flank' of Rivendell and Lothlorien.
When he used hobbits for their special skilles, most of their actions were meant to be in secret.

Also, the Periaur are conctantly giving Bree as a good example of how Men and Hobbits prosper from living together. Let me give you an example that it was not so: Bill Ferny and his companion. Do you remember how the Men in Bree came to the aid of the four hobbits when they were harassed by Bill Ferny and his companion? Neither do I....
Also, if my memory serves me right, Bree was also guarded by the Rangers. I do not have the quote right now, but if I recall right, Aragorn says somewhere in the book about an inn-keeper who complain about the Rangers, not knowing that he is free to do so because of the Rangers' watch. Correct me if I'm wrong.

From TheFool:
Now, Ost-in-Edhil have supposed that with 'the opening up of the lands', more Men will be coming to settle in the Shire, creating tension and strife with the existing population. But now that The War Of The Ring is over and much of Middle Earth is becoming safer, what motivations do decent Men have to move to such an out-of-the-way place as the Shire? There are many more lands which they could choose from, where they would not have to compete with other creatures. A good example of this would be Eregion, a land once dwelled in by Elves, but now uninhabited yet fertile and available for re-colonization.
Just a couple of remarks to this quote from his initial post:
1) Middle-earth is becoming safer...: Ever heard about the "War to end all Wars?" That war ended in 1919..
2) About Men's motivation to move to the Shire when there are other places to settle: Yes, they can choose other places to settle, and to be sure about that, make sure that none are allowed to settle in the Shire. Another point to explain why the Edict was a wise edict.

Arvedui

03-16-2003, 02:47 PM

I finally found the quote I was thinking of. From The Council of Elrond :
Aragorn smiled at him; then he turned to Boromir again. `For my part I forgive your doubt,' he said. 'Little do I resemble the figures of Elendil and Isildur as they stand carven in their majesty in the halls of Denethor. I am but the heir of Isildur, not Isildur himself. I have had a hard life and a long; and the leagues that lie between here and Gondor are a small part in the count of my journeys. I have crossed many mountains and many rivers, and trodden many plains, even into the far countries of Rhûn and Harad where the stars are strange.
'But my home, such as I have, is in the North. For here the heirs of Valandil have ever dwelt in long line unbroken from father unto son for many generations. Our days have darkened, and we have dwindled; but ever the Sword has passed to a new keeper. And this I will say to you, Boromir, ere I end. Lonely men are we, Rangers of the wild, hunters - but hunters ever of the servants of the Enemy; for they are found in many places, not in Mordor only.
`If Gondor, Boromir, has been a stalwart tower, we have played another part. Many evil things there are that your strong walls and bright swords do not stay. You know little of the lands beyond your bounds. Peace and freedom, do you say? The North would have known them little but for us. Fear would have destroyed them. But when dark things come from the houseless hills, or creep from sunless woods, they fly from us. What roads would any dare to tread, what safety would there be in quiet lands, or in the homes of simple men at night, if the Dúnedain were asleep, or were all gone into the grave?
`And yet less thanks have we than you. Travellers scowl at us, and countrymen give us scornful names. "Strider" I am to one fat man who lives within a day's march of foes that would freeze his heart or lay his little town in ruin, if he were not guarded ceaselessly. Yet we would not have it otherwise. If simple folk are free from care and fear, simple they will be, and we must be secret to keep them so. That has been the task of my kindred, while the years have lengthened and the grass has grown.

Aulë

03-16-2003, 03:43 PM

I fail to see how that last quote supports your view that Elessar's choice was correct.
Why change a system that works?
If the Rangers could keep the 'evil' people at bay without the edict, then what is the need to increase the security levels on the Shire.
Now that the One Ring had left it's border's, the Shire was under less threat than it was before the War Of The Ring.

Arvedui

03-17-2003, 08:25 AM

Why change a system that works?
IMO, it was not working, that is why I mentioned Bill Ferny. And also remember this from your own previous quote:
[i]Return of the King: Homeward Bound[i]
'It all comes of those newcomers and gangrels that began coming up the Greenway last year, as you may remember; but more came later. Some were just poor bodies running away from trouble; but most were bad men, full o' thievery and mischeif. And there was trouble right here in Bree, bad trouble. Why we had a real set-to, and there were some folk killed, killed dead! If you believe me.'
'I will indeed,' said Gandalf, 'How many?'
'Three and two,' said Butterbur, referring to the big folk and the little. 'There was poor Mat Heathertoes, and Rowlie Appledore, and little Tom Pickthorn from over the Hill; and Willie Banks from up-away, and one of the Underhills from Staddle: all good fellows, and they're missed.
That is what happened without any Rangers protecting Bree, and no edict. Which shows that the edict was indeed a wise decision by the King.

Aulë

03-17-2003, 12:22 PM

Although you seem to think differently, I do think it was working, as the Shire was a peaceful place with no troubles at all. That is, until the Nazgul came along and scattered the Rangers.

Return of the King: Homeward Bound
'I expect it has,' said Gandalf. 'Nearly all lands have been disturbed these days, very disturbed. But cheer up, Barliman! You have been on the edge of very great troubles, and I am only glad to hear that you have not been deeper in. But better times are coming. Maybe, better than any you remember. The Rangers have returned. We came with them.'

Now, as the Rangers have returned, people like Bill Ferny would not be able to cause trouble in the Shire.

Gandalf also said that 'better times were coming'. So why increase the protection on the Shire?

Return of the King: Homeward Bound
'Then the Greenway will be opened again, and his [Elessar's] messengers will come north, and there will be comings and goings, and evil things will be driven out of the waste-lands.

You may say that Men may come and settle in the Shire. But didn't Gandalf also state that 'evil things will be driven out of the waste-lands? Therefore the would be no evil Men to cause trouble in the Shire.

I feel that the edict causes the situation to go from one extreme to the other. And as the Periaur have stated all along, only bad things could come out of this edict.

Arvedui

03-19-2003, 11:03 AM

The Periaur are arguing that the Shire should be open to all, and that the Hobbits would benefit from more interaction with Men, especially by offering increased protection to the Shire:

From The Fool:
With regards to the safety and protection of the Shire from this increased threat, would it not be better if decent Men also lived in the region to provide pro-active rather than reactive protection?
The surviving servants of Sauron and Saruman are the people least likely to take notice of Royal declarations; in effect then, the ones who will obey the Edict are the people most likely to be of benefit to the Hobbits, and those who can offer more protection and safety to the Shire. The Edict still remains as a virtual barrier. If Men are to be left on the outskirts and asked to provide protection for a land they themselves cannot enter, then I suspect they might become lacking in motivation.
From Pippin_Took:
This shows that the Hobbits who lived in Bree with Men benefited from the Men's presence. Unlike the Shire, Bree did not have to put up with the Enemy's bondage since the good Men forced the Wild Men out. If there were Men living in the Shire with the Hobbits, the Wild Men would have been forced out, like they were in Bree.
On the other hand they are denying the need for increased protection.
From Pippin-Took:
You may say that Men may come and settle in the Shire. But didn't Gandalf also state that 'evil things will be driven out of the waste-lands? Therefore the would be no evil Men to cause trouble in the Shire.
Now, as the Rangers have returned, people like Bill Ferny would not be able to cause trouble in the Shire.
It is my opinion that the Shire didn't need any increased protection. Some of the worst possible ruffians have already tried to settle in the Shire, and rule it by their will. That ended when the hobbits threw them out, by their own force. In other words, the hobbits are capable of keeping the Shire safe by their own means.
As Gothmog have pointed out already, the Edict was issued to provide the hobbits with a Safe Haven, a place where they could rule themselves and remain hobbits.
From Gothmog:
The Edict sets up a barrier between the Shire (that is the land where the Hobbits live) and the land around. The Hobbits were not "Cut Off" but provided with a haven. Since it seems to be clear that the Hobbits did not want to have great contact with others, (it was after all not in the nature of most Hobbits to want change and/or adventures) how could it be that this time was perfect for Hobbits to create new friendships with other Peoples? First it would be necessary for them to become used to having neighbors other than those of Bree (which only a few Hobbits wanted to visit anyway).
By being persistant that the Edict was unwise, the Periaur are arguing solely from Men's viewpoint. By wanting Men to settle in the Shire, they are giving the view that hobbits should not be allowed to continue with their lives as before, but be forced to share the country that they have fertilized and made to prosper from their own hands. In other words, the people of those two who carried the One Ring all the way through Mordor to the Mountain of Doom are "rewarded" by being forced to accept that they can no longer live by themselves.
By issuing the Edict, King Elessar makes sure that this will not happen, and to the Ost-in-Edhil, this is a wise move.

Legolam

03-20-2003, 11:50 AM

In my opinion, the proof of the wisdom of Aragorn is in the pudding (so to speak!). Do the hobbits lead better lives after the decree, being "protected" in this way?

Unfortunately, the debate so far has been speculative, based on the experiences of the Shire in the Third Age. We are speculating on what we think the Fourth Age will be like. But we are all forgetting that Tolkien did actually give us some hints to the future of Middle Earth, and I think that this may shed some light on the wisdom of King Elessar's decree:

from Prologue. 1. Concerning Hobbits
Hobbits are an unobtrusive but very ancient people, more numerous formerly than they are today
So there are less hobbits around nowadays. I believe this is a direct result of the decree. But why?

from Prologue. 1. Concerning Hobbits
... now they avoid us with dismay and are becoming hard to find
King Elessar's decree isolated hobbits from Men, which, over time, breeds distrust and ignorance, on both sides. It's not that there are less hobbits, but they actively avoid us. Have you ever seen a hobbit?

from Prologue. 1. Concerning Hobbits
They possessed from the first the art of disappearing swiflty and silently, when large folk whom they do not wish to meet come blundering by; and this art they have developed until to Men it may seem magical
Therefore, the decree has separated hobbits from Men so that, after many generations to the present day, they mistrust and avoid humans. Men also have not had the chance to get to know hobbits, and now perceive them as "magical". However well-intentioned King Elessar was, his decree ultimately brought about the separation of these two races. Who knows how different it may have been if the Shire had been opened up to Men.

Turgon

03-20-2003, 08:50 PM

That's an interesting point Legolam, in fact these were the first quotes that sprung into my head when I first thought about this question. However, we are still in the realms of speculation here. Do we know that this estrangement of hobbits and men was a consequence of Elessar's law? How much time had passed between the writing of this prologue and the Passing of the Edict? More than enough time for Elessar's Law to have been discarded and his wisdom overruled. The decline of the Hobbits could just as easily be a result of this. We will never know.

But it was the destiny of the Secondborn to 'take possession' of Middle-earth. It is also evident that the nature of Man makes him well suited to a fall into darkness. Without a wise and just king, the freedom of all races are threatened. A quick look into the history of Middle-earth shows this to be true. And a quick look into the future shows us this...

Letter 338, dated June 1972

'I have written nothing beyond the first few years of the Fourth Age. (Except the beginning of a tale supposed to refer to the end of the reign of Eldaron about 100 years after the death of Aragorn. Then I of course discovered that the King's Peace would contain no tales worth recounting; and his wars would have little interest after the overthrow of Sauron; but that almost certainly a restlessness would appear about then, owing to the (it seems) inevitable boredom of Men with the good.'

Mankind will fall into darkness again, and goodwill is not enough to protect the Hobbits of the Shire. While Elessar lives the Shire-folk will have his protection - but what about later ages and lesser kings? This law was passed for those who followed after. If the Hobbits of the Shire wanted freedom to live in their own land, then it was only right that Elessar should give it to them, and take measures to ensure that this right was still given to them long after he had gone. When Men grow bored of goodness, then what is to prevent them commiting evil and unjust acts? Laws such as Elessar's I would say. At least that was the thinking and the wisdom behind its creation

Ithrynluin

03-22-2003, 10:42 AM

The debate will end on March 24, at 1 pm GMT.

Please make your concluding statements by then.

Thank you:)

Aulë

03-23-2003, 04:20 PM

The edict that Elessar creates for the Shire is very similar to current day immigration laws. From what we've seen recently in countries such as Australia (an excellent comparison to the Shire in terms of it's isolation and vast resources), is it really going to stop the Men from entering the Shire?
Men would still try to find ways into the Shire, and many of the King's resources would be wasted enforcing this edict to keep these Men out; resources which could be used to protect the Kingdom as a whole.

An we have pointed out numerous times, the relationship between Men and Hobbits in Bree shows that Hobbits can benefit from living in unison with good Men. And if the resources used to protect the Shire were used to clean the evil Men out of the Kingdom, then only good Men could enter the Shire, allowing this beneficial relationship to occur.

Now, there is also the resulting issue of favoritism going on in the Kingdom because of this. Now the Ost-in-Edhil believe that the Hobbits warrant this protection because of the valor of Frodo and Samwise in Mordor;

Originally posted by Arvedui
In other words, the people of those two who carried the One Ring all the way through Mordor to the Mountain of Doom are "rewarded" by being forced to accept that they can no longer live by themselves.

But there have been many more greater feats accomplished over the ages than this, so why should only the Shire benefit from this? I'm sure that the Dwarves of the Iron Hills, the Elves of Lindon and the Men of Belfalas would also like to have the King's Men protecting their lands.
By the King protecting the Shire, it would most likely not go well in the eyes of others, creating jealousy and hate of the Hobbits. It may have even been this jealousy that could have sped up the fall of Men into darkness and their rebellion to the King, and in their opinion, his 'unjust ways'.

Gothmog

03-23-2003, 11:34 PM

Was it wise? It is true that having contact with Men could and would bring many benefits. However, let us look at what the options are:

First we have the possibility of Men being allowed into the shire and even making their homes within its boarders. If things go well then we could end up with a situation similar to that found in Bree. But, in doing so the Hobbits of the Shire would be forced to accept Men as Immediate neighbours, living side by side in communities that had over many generations been solely Hobbit, a very great change. This could well cause much friction from the Hobbits who did not want such contact. If there was trouble caused by this even imposing the Edict After the fact would help very little. The trouble would have already happened and greatly affected the Hobbits and Men and made it far more difficult to get the two to live in harmony after.

Next we have the possibility of Men not being allowed into the Shire but taking lands around there. In this, we would have much time before Men needed extra land, although there would be interest in the Hobbits of the Shire. With Men living near to but not in the Shire there would be time for the Hobbits to become used to Men being near and hopefully this could then be developed into a friendship over a period of time that would allow for contact between the two races without destructive friction. In time then the Edict could be, at the request of the Hobbits be removed and Men then allowed to enter the Shire with less risk of problems.

As for helping the Hobbits to become more used to Men we do know that Elessar had Hobbits as part of his group of advisors for the north kingdom. By doing such things he would be working to set up the conditions for Men/Hobbit meetings that would be the start of Friendly relations that could then lead to the Edict no longer being needed. In this way the risks of friction would be very much reduced and the Hobbits possibly even happy to have Men once more as neighbours even within the Shire.
An we have pointed out numerous times, the relationship between Men and Hobbits in Bree shows that Hobbits can benefit from living in unison with good Men. And if the resources used to protect the Shire were used to clean the evil Men out of the Kingdom, then only good Men could enter the Shire, allowing this beneficial relationship to occur. The relationship between Men and Hobbits in Bree is all very well. It would be wonderful to have such in the Shire this is true. The question is how are you going to set about such a thing?

It seems that the Periaur would have the Hobbits forced into this regardless of what they want. They seem to be saying that the Hobbits must not be allowed to decide for themselves but such decisions should be made by others. Seems like a good way to rile the Hobbits to me. After all being told that you are incapable of making an important decision about your own life and way of living is not the best means of keeping people friendly.

As for helping the Hobbits to become more used to Men we do know that Elessar had Hobbits as part of his group of advisors for the north kingdom. By doing such things he would be working to set up the conditions for Men/Hobbit meetings that would be the start of Friendly relations that could then lead to the Edict no longer being needed. In this way the risks of friction would be very much reduced and the Hobbits happy to have Men once more as neighbours even within the Shire.

Wisdom would be that which used the least force and did the least harm. There would be less force needed to prevent Men entering the Shire than to Eject them if it were needed later.

Forcing the Hobbits to have contact with Men would be the path to causing Harm. Allowing time for the Hobbits to accept contact with Men would be the path to avoiding Harm.

TheFool

03-24-2003, 01:14 AM

Originally posted by Gothmog
Next we have the possibility of Men not being allowed into the Shire but taking lands around there. In this, we would have much time before Men needed extra land, although there would be interest in the Hobbits of the Shire. With Men living near to but not in the Shire there would be time for the Hobbits to become used to Men being near and hopefully this could then be developed into a friendship over a period of time that would allow for contact between the two races without destructive friction.
The Periaur have already outlined a similar situation, but without the cut & dried 'no entry' of the Edict:
Originally posted by TheFool
I imagine a slow and gradual influx of honest folk beginning to settle on the outskirts of the Shire (where land is actually freely available), steadily mixing in with the Hobbit population - a subtle process.
To add further to this: Even though there are large differences between the natures of 'Big Folk' and Hobbits, we must remember that Men will be just as uneasy moving into the Shire as a Hobbit would be moving into a human town; what decent Man is not going to take this decision seriously? This is another reason why we believe there will not be that many Men wanting to move into the Hobbit's land, and certainly not being 'forced' on the Hobbits. At the Battle of Bywater, the Hobbits have proved that they are no pushover, and doubtless this episode will be fresh in the Hobbit's minds for a very long time. Bywater proves that the Hobbits need assistance from strong individuals when dealing with a military threat, while at the same time proving that they will not give in to unfair pressure.

Arvedui

03-24-2003, 08:03 AM

The Periaur are arguing that through the Edict, King Elessar were favouring the hobbits in a way that could create jealousy among other people:
From Pippin_Took:
But there have been many more greater feats accomplished over the ages than this, so why should only the Shire benefit from this? I'm sure that the Dwarves of the Iron Hills, the Elves of Lindon and the Men of Belfalas would also like to have the King's Men protecting their lands.
By the King protecting the Shire, it would most likely not go well in the eyes of others, creating jealousy and hate of the Hobbits. It may have even been this jealousy that could have sped up the fall of Men into darkness and their rebellion to the King, and in their opinion, his 'unjust ways'.
As we have shown, the hobbits are more than 'just another race' in Middle-earth. That is why Gandalf made sure the Dúnedain were guarding the Shire long before he knew that The One Ring was indeed kept by Bilbo. If the Shire was just some sort of Orange County, Florida, why couldn't he have used someone of less valour to guard the Shire? No, instead he went to the Middle-earth version of Special Operations at the time, the Dúnedain. The ancestors of Elendil and Isildur were seeing to it that the hobbits were left in peace. This was because there was something about the hobbits that was worth using the most capable force at the time to protect. In the chapter 'Many Meetings' in The Fellowship of the Ring, Gandalf goes a long way in telling why:
Indeed there is a power in Rivendell to withstand the might of Mordor, for a while: and elsewhere other powers still dwell. There is power, too, of another kind in the Shire. But all such places will soon become islands under siege, if things go on as they are going.
Also, Galadriel knew that there was something special about the hobbits and the Shire. Why else would she give Sam that very special gift? She was aware that there might very well be a scouring of the Shire. She therefore gave Sam the means to not only reconstruct the Shire quickly, but it was even 'reborne' into something of Elven standards:
Altogether 1420 in the Shire was a marvellous year. Not only was there wonderful sunshine and delicious rain, in due times and perfect measure, but there seemed something more: an air of richness and growth, and a gleam of a beauty beyond that of mortal summers that flicker and pass upon this Middle-earth. All the children born or begotten in that year, and there were many, were fair to see and strong, and most of them had a rich golden hair that had before been rare among hobbits.
From 'The Return of the King' the chapther "The Gray Havens."

She even gave Sam a Mallorn tree, the only mallorn west of the Mountains and east of the Sea, and one of the finest in the world.

So by issuing the Edict, King Elessar made sure that he protected not only the hobbits, a people with enough strength to stand against such evil as the Ring, but also a place were clearly could be seen a gleam of beauty beyond that of mortal summers. Of course he would do everything in his power to protect this. He was aware that hobbits were capable of keeping that beauty present, while the presence of Men would make the beauty diminish and fade to naught.
The Elves were leaving Middle-earth, so issuing the Edict to protect the remaing beauty was a wise move.

Gothmog

03-24-2003, 01:47 PM

Bywater proves that the Hobbits need assistance from strong individuals when dealing with a military threat, while at the same time proving that they will not give in to unfair pressure.
I have to answer this point. I have been reviewing the "Battle of Bywater"

At last all was over. Nearly seventy of the ruffians lay dead on the field, and a dozen were prisoners. Nineteen hobbits were killed, and some thirty were wounded. The dead ruffians were laden on waggons and hauled off to an old sand-pit nearby and there buried: in the Battle Pit, as it was afterwards called. The fallen hobbits were laid together in a grave on the hill-side, where later a great stone was set up with a garden about it. So ended the Battle of Bywater, 1419, the last battle fought in the Shire, and the only battle since the Greenfields, 1147, away up in the Northfarthing. In consequence, though it happily cost very few lives, it has a chapter to itself in the Red Book, and the names of all those who took part were made into a Roll, and learned by heart by Shire-historians. The very considerable rise in the fame and fortune of the Cottons dates from this time; but at the top of the Roll in all accounts stand the names of Captains Meriadoc and Peregrin. This is a part of what is said about it. However, in reading through it I can only find reference to the "Ruffians" and Hobbits. So could you please show just where this battle proves "the Hobbits need assistance from strong individuals"? (The only "Strong Individuals" that I could find in there were ALL Hobbits). It seems to me that it is the other way around and that avoiding further such trouble to upperty Men would be a very good reason to ensure that there was plenty of time for the Hobbits to prepair for close contact with their new neighbours.

TheFool

03-24-2003, 02:00 PM

As the Guild of the Periaur we submit our closing statement.

We believe the Royal Edict will create more problems than it will solve, and is not a wise long-term solution - thus it will not be beneficial to the Hobbits, no matter how well intentioned it was.

The Fourth Age has begun and the Hobbits of the Shire are more well-known to the other races than ever - this they no longer have a choice in, except of course if the Edict is put in place (when proclaimed throughout the lands and effectively serving as an advertisement), which will only increase the interest and possibly start un-true rumours. Also, other races (such as those previously mentioned by Pippin_Took) have a case of favouritism against them with regards to Royal 'special attention' and protection.

Since the issuing of the Edict, the Hobbits have gone into a decline. It is not clear whether this is actually the result of the Edict, but it is possible that it was the root cause of the Hobbit community going into stagnation, leading to a dwindling of the population.

Bree is the key example of how Men and Hobbits can live peacefully side by side, for a long period of time. Prior to the Founding of the Shire, many Hobbits were happily living in and around Bree, only leaving this arrangement because they were prospering and the area becoming over-crowded.

* The Hobbits are in need of protection from outside threats from the evil still in the world. We believe the best means of protection for the Shire is to allow decent Men to gradually integrate into the edges of the Shire, thus increasing the strength and self-sufficiency of the community, the level of understanding and trust between the two races, and a long-term healthy relationship.

Continuing with the practice of the Rangers 'guarding' the Shire is just not practical, and is a mis-use of resources which could be better employed elsewhere, for example: seeking out remaining pockets of orcs or invaders from the South. And in the light of a future 'fall from grace' of Men, an easy first target would be the Hobbits and their precious little untouchable land. It would be unwise to solely count on others for protection.

A barrier between two races is not a good idea and will lead to jealousy, resentment and possibly conflict between Men and Hobbits. Both sides agree that a new relationship between Hobbits and Men is very reasonable, however we believe that beginning that relationship with a barrier between the two is 'starting off on the wrong foot'.

Ost-in-Edhil have consistently argued that the Hobbits just want to be left alone to live a 'routine' easy life, and none of them are concerned with excitement or adventure; due to the 'understated' nature of Hobbits, there are many quotes available which may support this. We would like to offer the following quote:

The Hobbit: An Unexpected Party
BILBO: 'Not the Gandalf who was responsible for so many quiet lads and lasses going off into the Blue for mad adventures? Anything from climbing trees to visiting elves or sailing in ships, sailing to other shores! Bless me, life used to be quite inter- I mean, you used to upset things badly in these parts once upon a time.'

Gandalf himself did not want the Hobbits to remain 'in their own little world', he encouraged contact and adventure with other races and lands. We would suggest that there is a paradox in tthe nature of Hobbits; they are a 'peace loving folk who frown upon adventures and outsiders', yet when presented with a challenge they rise to the occasion and can become great heroes (examples: Bilbo; the Hobbits of the Fellowship; the Battle of Bywater including strong contribuitons from the Hobbits of the Fellowship). Yes, on the one hand Men could and have caused them harm by the use of force, and therefore an element
of protection and better understanding is needed. However on the other hand under 'normal' circumstances, Hobbits have demonstrated that they are no pushover, and are capable of holding their own and profiting from a relationship with Men.