Debate Tournament - Round 6: Guild of the Periaur vs. Guild of Scholar's Hall

Discussion in 'Debates' started by Chymaera, Aug 8, 2003.

  1. Chymaera

    Chymaera Doorwarden

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    Once again we will enter the Hosting fray :D

    If the guilds would submit there teams we can commence.

    The Judges:
    Eriol for Tolkienology
    YayGollum for the Outcasts
    Talierin as the Neuteral
    Chymaera for Ost-in-Edhil;)
    The_Swordmaster for the Elves and Dwarves
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2003
  2. baragund

    baragund Brother in Arms

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    The Guild of Scholars will be represented by:

    Baragund
    Inderjit S
    Maedhros
    Feanorian
     

  3. Chymaera

    Chymaera Doorwarden

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    I will be away for the rest of the week. If the Periaur get their team together, Gothmog has the question and he can post it. If nothing has happened by the weekend then we should postpone until we can have a debate.
     
  4. Aulë

    Aulë The Larrikin

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    Here's our team:

    Aulë
    Niniel
    Elbereth
    Celebthôl
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2003

  5. Maedhros

    Maedhros The Tall

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    I will need a few days to get some volunteers. My other current teammates are unavailable.
     
  6. Aulë

    Aulë The Larrikin

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    Sure thing.
     
  7. Chymaera

    Chymaera Doorwarden

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    :)
    When everyone is ready, I am ready.
     
  8. Maedhros

    Maedhros The Tall

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    Well, our team is:
    Feanorian
    Maedhros
    ghost1
    ghost2
     
  9. Chymaera

    Chymaera Doorwarden

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    Okay we will start. My apologies for the delays.

    Here we go.


    The Doom of Mandos
    The Curse of Morgoth
    Which was the most effective? That is which was most fully complete in its intent, The Doom of Mandos or The Curse of Morgoth.


    The Guild of The Periaur have the choice of sides adn the debate will last 7 days from the first post.

    Good Luck to both teams.
     
  10. Aulë

    Aulë The Larrikin

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    I know it's a bit late, but would it be OK with Chymaera and the Scholars if the Periaur replaced Tookish with Celebthôl in our team?
     
  11. Chymaera

    Chymaera Doorwarden

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    I didn't know that he was a Periaur. I have no objections.
     
  12. Maedhros

    Maedhros The Tall

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    The same with us.
     
  13. Aulë

    Aulë The Larrikin

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    He joined the Guild just recently.


    Chymaera, could we please get some clarrification on this topic?
     
  14. Elfarmari

    Elfarmari Tingilindë

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    I completely agree. The Curse of Mandos was not really a curse, per se, but a prophecy, whereas Morgoth's curse was basically Morgoth telling Hurin he was going to go after his family. I do not see them as comparable.
     
  15. Chymaera

    Chymaera Doorwarden

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    Please excuse my absents. I will try to clarify my question.

    Both the Curse of Morgoth and the Doom of Mandos were made with a goal in mind; both were punishments that in the end came to touch the lives of all who lived in Belariand at the end of the First Age, whether the curse and doom were intended for them or not.

    Which of these two was the best at meeting and/or exceeding its intended purpose?

    I hope that this helps.
     
  16. FoolOfATook

    FoolOfATook I'm Still Alive...

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    Are there any further issues of clarification, or has Chymaera covered it?

    At any rate, this debate is overdue to begin.
     
  17. baragund

    baragund Brother in Arms

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    I believe us Scholar types are OK with the question as clarified. So let's get ready to rumble!! :)
     
  18. Aulë

    Aulë The Larrikin

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    Yes, If everything goes well, we should have a post up by tomorrow.
     
  19. Niniel

    Niniel Random Quoter

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    Alright then, there goes…
    The Periaur will argue that the Curse of Morgoth was best at achieving its original purpose. To see why, we first need to see what the purpose of either was.
    The Doom of Mandos goes as follows:
    It is not clear whether what happened to the Noldor was caused by the Doom, or that the Doom was just a prediction of what was going to happen. The Periaur hold that the Doom was only a prediction, and that everything that happened was the logical consequence of the fact that the Noldor left Aman. This means that everything that had happened was already included in the Music of the Ainur, and that the Valar only prophesied it to the Noldor. In that case the Doom was not a punishment, and it can not have an exact purpose, because everything was destined to happen the way it did, and not otherwise.
    Nonetheless even though the Doom sounds to be quite clear, not the whole Doom came to be; or at least not to its fullest extent. This can be shown by analysing it sentence by sentence.
    This is undoubtedly true; the whole history of ME is one series of battles in which ever more Elves were slain; and others died by torment or by grief. However it is not entirely true, because there were also many beautiful things that were created, such as the building of Gondolin, Menegroth, and Nargothrond, which were all very beautiful to see. Also many good things happened, such as the love between Lúthien and Beren. So, although many terrible things happened, there was also beauty and love in ME. There could have been even more pain and suffering, so you can’t say that the Doom was fulfilled to its highest possible extent.
    This is also true, but there are exceptions; Glorfindel was re-housed in a new body, and Finrod ‘walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees of Eldamar.’
    This is true, yet after the Valar had taken pity on the Noldor, many were allowed to return to Aman, and not wane in Eä.
    For now we come to the second point; the Valar in the end took pity on the Noldor, and lifted the suffering. Eärendil came to the Valar and ‘pardon he asked for the Noldor and pity for their great sorrows, and mercy upon Men and Elves and succour in their need. And his prayer was granted.’ For after Eärendil’s embassy the Valar came to Middle-Earth and defeated Morgoth, let the Noldor return to Aman and gave Númenor to the Edain.
    And even while the Doom lasted the Valar had not completely forgotten ME; at least not all of them. Ulmo says to Tuor:
    This seems both to prove that the Doom of Mandos was only a prophesy and not caused by the Valar, because everything, even Ulmo’s breach of Doom, seems to be destined during the Ainulindalë, and also that the Doom was not all-embracing, since things can be done that were not in the Doom.
    All in all, though the Doom of Mandos was terrible, there was also beauty and love in ME, and the Doom was not fulfilled to its highest possible extent.
    Let’s now turn to the Curse of Morgoth. Morgoth says to Húrin:
    The purpose of the Curse was thus to cause as much suffering as possible for the family of Húrin.
    It can’t be doubted that everything Morgoth said came true. For Túrin, Nienor and Morwen there was no love, no beauty, and no hope in anything they did. They had no moments of true happiness; or when they had, they turned out to be wrong, such as the marriage of Túrin and Nienor. There was no pity to be expected from Morgoth, and no escaping from the Curse such as Tuor had done with the Doom of Mandos. The only reason why the Curse of Morgoth was not so great in its extent was that it was only aimed at Húrin’s family, while the Doom of Mandos touched upon the whole of ME. But as far as the Curse went, it was fulfilled to its highest extent.
    Therefore the Periaur say that the Curse of Morgoth was best at meeting its intended purpose, and we challenge you to prove us wrong!
     
  20. Maedhros

    Maedhros The Tall

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    The Topic is:
    Posted by GoP
    This is of course very weird. You see in the Music of the Ainur, the Ainur were only involved in the first two themes. In the third theme, when Ilúvatar made his children the Ainur had no part. To say that the Ainur would know everything that would happen with the Elves and Men in ME without them being actually involved in the that theme cannot be right. Simple. There is only one being who knows everything and that is Ilúvatar.
    Posted by GoP
    Menegroth of course it's the work of Telerin elves with a maiar. It was at first fully independent of the Doom of Mandos.
    The Doom of Mandos states:
    Where in all of that say that the Ñoldor wouldn't create beautiful things in ME? Where does it says good things couldn't happen in ME? Where does it says that there would be no love in Me because of the Curse? It's all in there, and it doesn't say it.
    Posted by GoP
    Hehe. All elves are rehoused sooner or later. It depends on their deeds. In the case of Glorfindel and Finrod, you have to take into account their deeds.
    Glorfindel is the elf of Gondolin who fought with a balrog in order to help Tuor and Co escape and then go to the havens of Sirion. He sacrificed himself for others. But in reality, JRRT had used the name Glorfindel in LOTR, and he had forgotten that he had used in the Tale of the Fall of Gondolin, so instead of changing one name, he merely made him re-house and be the same one.
    Finrod is of course, the wisest of all the exiled Ñoldor. It was he who first encountered Men and instructed them, and it was he who gave his life to save Beren. And he took no part in the kinslaying of Alqualondë.
    Posted by GoP
    So, if they were left on ME, they would have waned like Mandos says. I agree with that.
    Posted by GoP
    I think there is the matter of scope. The doom focuses mainly on the House of Fëanor, and those who followed them. At that point, it would the other Ñoldorian princes. When they arrived in ME, more were lured into it, including the Edain, who aided the Ñoldor in the War against Morgoth. Notice that when the Valar arrived with their hosts for the War of Wrath, all of the Ñoldorian Kingdoms were extinct: Gondolin, Nargothrond, Fingon's and those of the sons of Fëanor. All of them had suffered greatly, as the Doom foretold. The Edain, who aided the Ñoldor, suffered greatly too. The Doom never states that ME would become the sole domain of Morgoth Bauglir. Notice that the doom does not says that all the Ñoldor or Men would be anihilated, just that they would suffer greatly from treason, and so it was. The Ñoldor lost the Nirnaeth because of the treason of Ulfang and his sons. Gondolin was destroyed by treason. The remants of Doriath and the Havens of Sirion were ravaged by the sons of Fëanor and in all of their tries, they never obtained the Silmaril.
    It was only after the Valar had forsaken the Curse of Mandos that ME was saved. Interesting that it was then that Maeðros and Maglor were able to obtain the Silmarils.

    Now to the Curse of Morgoth:
    To bring upon Húrin's family darkness and despair.
    Posted by GoP
    Are you sure? That is not truth of course. Morwen is the perfect example of that. Put yourself in that situation. Your husband is a prisioner in Angband, you send your son Túrin away, and never saw him again. Nienor her daugther was lost. When she found them they were already dead.
    And what is despair:
    despair: To lose all hope.
    From the Wanderings of Húrin
    Even with all that happened to her, she still waited for Húrin's return. It was impossible for Húrin to escape from Angband, and Morwen knowing that still waited for him. She never lost hope, therefore the Curse of Morgoth, was not enough to break her, nor her hope, thus it failed.
    Compare Finwë and Míriel with Húrin and Morwen. Finwë and Míriel lived in Paradise, they had a child and then they lost hope. Finwë didn't give his wife time to heal, and thought that his suffering was greater than that of his wife.
    Morwen should have had no reason to wait for Húrin. Her sons were dead, her husband imprisioned in Hell. And yet, she still clung to the hope of being reunited with him again. It cost her a lot, but she always retained hope.
    From Later Quentas:
    This is the love story of the Quenta Silmarillion.