Debate Tournament - Round 6: Guild of the Periaur vs. Guild of Scholar's Hall

Discussion in 'Debates' started by Chymaera, Aug 8, 2003.

  1. Aulë

    Aulë The Larrikin

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    As much as you try to deny the obvious, Maedhros, it appears to me that it was a threat. A warning, telling the Noldor not to travel to ME, or else.
    It partly worked, in that it changed Finarfin and his people's minds. They didn't go to ME. They heeded the warning. They thought "Hey, wouldn't it be a good idea to stay here, and not have to go through all that trouble?".
    The Doom worked on them. But it's purpose (to keep the Noldor in Valinor) did not come to pass, as the Sons of Fëanor and their followers ignored the warning, and went on their merry way to ME.

    The Valar did not decide "Hmm, those Noldor are becoming annoying- let's give them pain and suffering until the end of time".
    No, the Valar loved the Noldor. They knew what was best for them: to stay in Valinor. So they made up the Doom of Mandos to warn the Noldor to stay in Valinor.
    But it did not work. It was a failure.

    You appear to be clutching at straws, dear Maedhros, and rather short ones at that.
    The Doom does not say "and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains unless you have a Silmaril; in which case we will gladly accept you back, and take back this Doom.":rolleyes:
    It says that they will not allow them back into Valinor, period.
    But what happened? One of the little buggers snuck through the 'fence' and reached Valinor.

    And let us not forget the eagle that Manwë sent to Fingon in pity for Maedhros' (once again, the elf, not the debater ;) ) precarious position. Fingon prayed to the Valar for pity, and Manwë sent an eagle to help carry Fingon to the bound Maedhros, and to fly them
    away from Thangorodruin.
    Fingon's lamentation certainly reached the Valar there...

    Therefore, that part of the Doom did not come to pass.

    So Manwë over-ruled the Doom before it could come to pass entirely?
    Doesn't sound as if it were completed...and therefore it mustn't have achieved it's secondary purpose of punishing the Sons of Fëanor and their followers for not heeding this threat beforehand.

    So we have determined that this warning/punishment did not achieve it's purpose in that:
    A/. It did not prevent the Sons of Fëanor from leaving to pursue Morgoth.
    B/. It's predicted punishment did not come 100% true.
    C/. It was called off by Manwë before it's resulting punishment had entirely come to pass.

    Edit: Fixed a couple of vB code errors. Sorry.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2003
  2. Celebthôl

    Celebthôl Loremaster

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    This is the final post by the Periaur…

    As of yet the GoS have still failed to explain what exactly the Doom of Mandos was, unless it was a warning, however, if it was a warning to stop the Noldor leaving Valinor, then it failed,
    obviously.

    There was from the beginning the possibility that the Valar would pardon them, and they even helped them receive mercy (Ulmo helped Tuor)
    The GoS seems to be confused about its purpose and scope, you first said that it ended after the Valar had pardoned the Noldor. You even add quotes to back this. Then you start saying how it affected Elves such as Celebrimbor, Gil-Galad. Note how these Elves came AFTER the Doom was “lifted”

    And...



    While the curse of Morgoth didn't include the possibility of pity and it came true to the fullest possible extent, with all of Hurin’s family while the things that were mentioned in the Doom didn't all come true.

    As Niniel shows, the curse always came through at the best time for Morgoth and the worst time for Húrin...

    I am so sorry GoP my computer was acting up and i couldnt do as good a closing as i should have done :(. . .im sorry...
     

  3. Maedhros

    Maedhros The Tall

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    Posted by GoP
    It appears to you. The good thing is that what appears to you and what is actually is are two different things. Notice that my friend Aulë says: telling the Ñoldor. If it was a warning then all the Ñoldor had the opportunity to come back. If you read the case that is not true. The house of Fëanor could not return to Valinórë. It is so stated, so it couldn't be a warning. I think that you are confused with something that it is said before in that chapter:
    Now this is the warning and the threat. Simple.
    Posted by GoP
    It is interesting to note the details of those who remained in Valinórë. The ones that remained where led by Finarfin, who his wife was of the Teleri, which the House of Fëanor had killed a lot in Alqualondë.
    If they had killed a bunch of my friends, I would have been filled with bitterness against them too.
    Posted by GoP
    Hehe. Ahhhh, but that is not what happened. Valinórë was indeed fenced. When Eärendil came with Elwing and Co with the Silmaril, the Valar didn't remove their enchantments. It was still fenced. It was the inherent power of the Silmaril that made them be able to surpass the enchantments set by them. Simple.
    Posted by GoP
    Unfortunately for the GoP, it is not part of the Curse. Before the doom of Mandos, Manwë send a messenger to speak against Fëanor. I quoted this previously in this post. It is of course, not certain that Manwë send the eagle there, for it is not stated that he actually did. Anyway, it has no bearing on the topic because it was not part of the Doom uttered by Námo.
    Posted by GoP
    I'm sorry to say this, but this doesn't makes sense. All of the Ñoldorian exiles suffered great pains. Of the House of Fëanor, only Maedhros and Maglor survived before the War of Wrath. They had lost their right to be the Kings of the Ñoldor. They had lost their treasure. They had fallen greatly from their former selves of Valinórë. Their oath drove them to do hideous things. All of the great Ñoldorian Kingdoms were destroyed: Gondolin, Nargothrond, etc. Most of the Ñoldor did indeed perish in their War against Morgoth. The ones that lived had to live with the fact that their loved ones were either dead or missing, and their great realms destroyed.
    Posted by GoP
    Now this is interesting. My friend Aulë states that the Doom was called off before the resulting punishment had come to pass, hinting that it was the purpose of the Doom, yet he states in the beginning of his post that the purpose was that it was just a threat. Hmmmmm. It makes me wonder.
    Look at point A: In the warning that the messenger of Manwë issued to the Ñoldor in the gates of Tirion, he states that the Fëanorians by their own oath were exiled. They HAD to go. Period. The Doom of Mandos didn't give them a chance to return.
    B and C: It is interesting the phrase resulting punishment. What is the resulting punishment? That all of the Exiled Ñoldor were annihilated? That was not the purpose. We have that:
    1. Most of the Ñoldor were killed as predicted by the Doom.
    2. Fëanor house lost their right to the Kingship of the Ñoldor and their treasures.
    3. Valinórë was forever fenced to the Ñoldor. Eärendil reached it with the help of the Silmaril. Remember, he had made several trips before. If the Valar had broken the Doom then Eärendil would have needed no Silmaril.
    4. Technically, the Doom does not states that Valinórë would stay shut forever. It only says that the Fëanorians would be dispossessed forever and they were.
      [/list=1]
      Posted by GoP
      Obviously, you haven't read my posts. :( When Manwë messenger came to the gates of Tirion the Fair, he warned them not to go forth. That was the warning. The Doom of Mandos was a curse of all the perils that would strike the Ñoldor. Simple.
      Posted by GoP
      Hehe. Lets talk about confusion. It is Manwë's messenger that says that the Valar will not aid the Ñoldor, not the Doom of Mandos.
      I think that it was you btw, you posted that the making of the Rings of Power by Celebrimbor was an effect of the Doom of Mandos. I haven't used such references because it they would simple be plain wrong.
      Remember, Gil-Galad and Celebrimbor survived the events before the War of Wrath. And Celebrimbor's love was denied to him, it was Galadriel.
      Posted by GoP
      I like the phrase fullest possible extent. Lets look at the Curse of Morgoth:
      The Curse of Morgoth is more especific than that of the Ñoldor. It was directed at Húrin's family. If the intended purpose was to cause despair in them, how is it possible that Morwen endured the loss of her sons and the fact that her husband was imprisioned in Angband. Why did she endured that? Why didn't she lose hope? Why didn't she fall into despair?
      Answer, because she always believe that she would be reunited with her husband.
      And look at what Húrin says about her:
      Posted by GoP
      Best time for Morgoth? What does this means?
     
  4. Maedhros

    Maedhros The Tall

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    C'est fini

    Curse of Morgoth Bauglir

    Our friends from the GoP, would makes us believe that what happened to the Family of Húrin was all of Morgoth's doing, forgetting the fact that they were responsible for their actions. The greatest fault that the family of Húrin was their pride consider:
    1. Túrin refused the pardon of Thingol because of his pride.
    2. Morwen and Nienor refused to stay in Menegroth because of their pride.
    3. Túrin took his helm off when facing Glaurung because his pride was hurt by his words.
      [/list=1]
      The characters do have to take responsibility for their actions. I have posted the required quotes in an earlier posts.
      Lets consider for a moment, the unlikely situation that it was Morgoth's will that was driving them on. If this was true then, Morgoth would not do something in his handling of them that would hurt himself. But of course, we know that he couldn't control them as puppets.
      Conclusion:
      People are responsible for their actions, especially Men who have the liberty to go outside of the Music of the Ainur.
      Notice that all of their arguments, in the Curse of Morgoth, they have been unable to proof why Morwen did not fall into despair.
      Posted by GoP
      I salute you. Sometimes it's not the results that matter but the fact that you tried. You could have said that you didn't care or didn't feel like posting but you did, and for that you have my respect.;)
     

  5. Niniel

    Niniel Random Quoter

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    I don't think I have the authority to close the debate, but it will close in about an hour, so unless someone has something really important to say, this is it. Good luck to the judges, and may the best team win...
     
  6. FoolOfATook

    FoolOfATook I'm Still Alive...

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    I do have the authority, and even though it's probably not neccessary, I'm officially closing the debate. Officially. ;)
     
  7. Chymaera

    Chymaera Doorwarden

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