Did Illuvatar create evil?

Discussion in '"The Silmarillion"' started by BalrogRingDestroyer, Sep 1, 2018.

  1. Elaini

    Elaini Lost in Eä

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2018
    Messages:
    107
    Likes Received:
    76
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Finland
    Home Page:
    I review this question with the same philosophy as I do review the dilemma of suffering and theology in this world.

    The Ainur are from Eru's own thoughts, true. But it would appear that he gave everyone a free will, including the Ainur, and that includes choosing the paths that we generally regard as the hurtful ones. He interfered to the events only when asked by the Valar. It also reads that the Ainur failed to understand each other at first, but they learned to do that eventually and work together.

    Free will is a two edged blade that way, but eventually it's better to have it than just have us all as puppets or slaves. Should you allow the free will, you allow the chance of both good and evil, whether you like it or not. But as a result, we get many stories to be inspired by, to learn many lessons. It gives a lot more value to everything, knowing that our personal choices really did influence the results. In the end it's wealth.

    So what is Melkor about? "One who rises in might", which means an ambition great enough to end up with jealousy when he sees the others thriving together. In other words he really wants to be the leader but isn't fit to be one. The reason why Manwë is the greatest in authority but not in power is that he's the one who's fit. He actually listens.

    Melkor was the one who refused to work with others the most, and wanted to see himself on top instead, alone. His ambition dictated to challenge the other Valar instead and work with no one – even if he gained a few followers which is Mairon, Valaraukar and Thuringwethil at least. Ungoliant is more independent, and only cares about herself and her offpring (Shelob).

    The question is though what Eä would have been like if Melkor chose otherwise or if Varda would have chosen him instead. The challenger would have probably been someone else, I reckon. But in the world of canon there really isn't that much room for "what ifs". There's headcanons and fan fiction for all that.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2018
  2. Jordan Thomas

    Jordan Thomas Melkor’s Welsh Maiar

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2018
    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    N/A
    Location:
    Caerphilly, Wales
    Each of the Ainur represent certain aspects of eru, so technically yes because he created Melkor
     

  3. Valenthir

    Valenthir New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2018
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Morgulsdorf
    Everything is. One could say evil as we understand it created everything we perceive now. But was it evil then? We exist because of the violence of the cosmos, therefore 'evil' is just a fragment of perception. But was it Ilúvatar's intention for evil to exist in his creation? No, I do not believe it so. Compare it to our modern world, like Melkor being the first AI to think for itself. Is that evil, or is it freedom? Freedom is not evil, is it?
     
  4. Valandil

    Valandil High King at Annuminas

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2004
    Messages:
    462
    Likes Received:
    51
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Architect
    Location:
    Casper, WY
    I would say that - no, freedom is NOT evil. But - freedom can turn to evil... freely. :)
     

  5. Elaini

    Elaini Lost in Eä

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2018
    Messages:
    107
    Likes Received:
    76
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Finland
    Home Page:
    Melkor would probably agree, but I would say that not always. Why else the cultures that never met each other before can hold such similar moral standards? Also, one instance is known where despite creating children with free will Eru interfered in the events.

    But we are talking about Eä here, not our universe.
     
  6. Valenthir

    Valenthir New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2018
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Morgulsdorf
    Yes, we are talking about Eä. What then is evil? Did not the discord of Melkor cause the very conditions for life within the material world to exist? That much seems to be made clear when Ilúvatar enlightens Ulmo as to how the rains and clouds came to be. And when the Ainur descended into the World it was unmade, yet in the end it came to be as it was in the Vision, through conflict. Evil in itself seems to be more of a predicament of consciousness than a creation.