Did the Valar treat Númenor wrong?

Discussion in '"The Silmarillion"' started by Húrin Thalion, Nov 28, 2003.

  1. Húrin Thalion

    Húrin Thalion King of Crisps

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    I have always been disappointed on the valar for their lack of interest for the race of men and especially their treatment of Númenor. As soon as they saw grievances within the house of Finwë in Tirion among the Noldor they moved in and solved the conflict, not only bbecause Fëanor threated Fingolfin. Why? When the conflict between Tar-Palantir and Gimilkhad (or was it his father, oh well) almost turned into civil war they did nothing. This is to me rather unfair, not to mention the treatment of men earlier in history when at their awakening not one messenger was sent to Hildorien. Now this is not about the entire hiostory of men but anyway, let's sum it up.

    Could the valar have done anything else than to strike at Númenor? Several generations earlier I think they should have demonstrated their power and goodness to learn men and not punish them? Why do you think they should have done as they did or anything else? Just want your personal opinions and not a definite answer.

    Húrin Thalion
     
  2. Gothmog

    Gothmog Lord of Balrogs Staff Member

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    Short Answer.

    The Valar were incapable of dealing with Men.

    Slightly longer Answer.

    Iluvatar gave to Men the power to shape their lives in Arda beyond the Music of the Ainur. This meant that the Valar did not know enough about Men to be able to deal with them as they could with Elves.

    Just my view. ;)
     

  3. Arvedui

    Arvedui Stargazer

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    Short extra point:

    If the Valar had interferred whenver there was trouble and grievances, then the concept of 'free-will' would be nothing more than an empty phrase.

    (sort of like a politician's speech or promises...)
     
  4. Eledhwen

    Eledhwen Cumbrian

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    It is a correct view. This opinion is fleshed out in the Dialogue of Andreth and Finrod (Morgoth's Ring).
     

  5. Gil-Galad

    Gil-Galad in love

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    Well,I would like to add something to Gothmog and Arvedui's perfect posts :)
    One of the other reasons for not helping people was that the world was designed for them.They had to explore it,they had to learn how to survive in it,how to defeat evil.
    The Valar had no business with men.
     
  6. Húrin Thalion

    Húrin Thalion King of Crisps

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    Well, Gil Galad, I would ahev to disagree with you, thsoe posts are far from perfect. In fact, they are very uninteresting and unable to base a further discussion on. It wa snot like I asked a question whether they did or did not, I asked for opinions and perhaps discussiosn about those.

    Måns
     
  7. Gothmog

    Gothmog Lord of Balrogs Staff Member

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    Well Húrin I have to agree with you. I am well aware that my post was far from perfect. In fact I hoped that the bluntness of both answers I gave would have caused at least one member to disagree. Thus giving rise to a discussion. We can still hope that Anc. will see this thread. He disagrees with me on every thread he can. (even when he agrees with what I post. ;) )
     
  8. Eledhwen

    Eledhwen Cumbrian

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    Another reason was that the Valar did not, and probably were not permitted to, push their noses in where they were not wanted. The Numenoreans had rejected worship of Iluvatar in favour of Melkor, the Dark Lord, thanks to Sauron's evangelism. They had turned their backs on the other Valar and on their God, so not only was intervention not looked for, it would not have been welcomed by Numenor if it had come.

    Needless to say, when Numenor's destruction came, a remnant of those who were faithful to the true God were spared, Noah style.
     
  9. Inderjit S

    Inderjit S Bootylicious

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    What do you wish the Valar would do? The Númenóreans, as I see it desired immortality, something which the Valar could not give them. This desire for immortality heightened after Sauron told them that the only way by which immortality was achievable was through the defeat of the Valar and taking of Valinor. By then the Númenóreans were so wrapped up in their Melkorism that is was impossible for the Valar to successfully intervene.

    You could of course, claim that the Valar may have been able to act at a earlier time, at the start of the Númenórean rebellion. Yet any emissary that they sent was dismissed by the Númenóreans ,whose pride and insolence grew day by day. IMO, the Númenóreans got themselves into their quandary and I don’t think anyone expects the Valar to get them out of it-not even Eru, Men were free to do as they wanted even if it was to turn to evil.
     
  10. jimmyboy

    jimmyboy son of James

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    Gothmog's post pretty much sums it up. Good job!
    :)
    Well, for one thing, they could have done *something* to hinder Sauron's efforts to destroy Numenor. IIRC, they did nothing. Men, with the indirect help of the elves, had to do it themselves. Besides that, what did the Valar do to combat Sauron and his evil work? Oh yeah, the wimped out and sent a handful of flesh-clad and power-limited angels, in the form of human wizards. They were so limited in their mission that it took thousands of years, an entire age after his first great defeat, for the help to reach fruition. Not to diminish Gandalf's works and faithfulness, but basically he was the only thing the Valar "did" to help the world of Men over an entire age.

    Needless to say, but I do not think very highly of the Valar. Well, except for Ulmo. He actually cared about those who lived in M-E, and did what he could to help them.
     
  11. Lantarion

    Lantarion no house

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    I think the main purpose of sending the Istari to Middle-earth was not to 'save' the Free Poeples from Sauron or act as their deliverers, but to nudge the Free Peoples (especially, IMO, Men) into active resistance and a more direct state of mind in dealing with Sauron.
    The Valar, I guess, were tired of doing all the work for Men (hehe well that's a bit harshly said asthey hardly ever intervened in any way, but e.g. the War of Wrath... :eek:) and decided to send some emissaries to help them along subtly but to let them realize on their own what they had to do.
     
  12. Gil-Galad

    Gil-Galad in love

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    That was people's exam.They had to prove that they could survive in Middle-earth.It was created for them and they had to learn how to survive there,how to defeat evil.
    But that was a difficult task,even for the elves,that is why The Valar sent there the Istari.They had to show the right way to the people how to defeat evil.
     
  13. Inderjit S

    Inderjit S Bootylicious

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    Really? Sorry, but there are so many quotes by Tolkien that gainsay your views that I think I’ll let Tolkien do the talking:

    The Istari; U.T

    The Istari; U.T

    The Istari; U.T

    The Istari; U.T

    The Valar were guided by Eru, the God of Middle-Earth. Whilst the Valar were fallible, Eru wasn't and he supported the Valar's plan to send the Istari to Middle-Earth and to help rather then deliver Men.

    Myths Transformed; HoME 10

    Myths Transformed; HoME 10

    Minas Tirith; RoTK

    The Last Debate; RoTK

    The Steward and The King; RoTK

    Problem of Ros; HoME 12

    The sending of Morinehtar and Rómestámo (The Ithrynluin, who replaced Alatar and Pallando.) was quite effective.

    Last Writings; HoME 12

    The Númenóreans didn’t exactly help themselves either with the civil wars in Arnor and Gondor
     
  14. Húrin Thalion

    Húrin Thalion King of Crisps

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    Oh this thread seems to have died down a long time ago, well, I will have to answer to your arguments, all. I do not think that the Valar should have tried to help the Numenoreans by a sheer display of power and glory, nor governed them at any time. Men must have, and will always ultimately get, independence from the Valar. This is what Melkor was not willing to do. But, no messenger was sent to Hildorien, they didn't even care to find out if men had come yet. I think we can be pretty sure that one of the reasons why Oromë kept riding in ME before the time of the elves was to look for them, and await their coming. Men were left on their own from the start, no wonder they were corrupted by Morgoth who had a will that was so much stronger than they had. No wonder they turned to evil, if that was the only power there to affect them.

    Why didn't they follow Morgoth and capture him when he had destroyed the two trees? After all, he had broken the peace of the Blessed Realm, destroyed the sources of light and generally been a very naughty boy. The time of Men was imminent, and yet they did not care enough for these secondborn to rid the world of Evil personified.

    To return to the case of Númenor, why not from the start offer some elves a place on Númenor? Since their relations were quite good with the Edain, I am certain that both sides would have been happy about it. Thus they could have taught the Númenoreans much, and learnedd themselves, and maybe Men would have been more resistent to fear of death and hatred fo the Valar.

    Måns
     
  15. Úlairi

    Úlairi Crying in the Wilderness

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    If you believe this is so, read the 'Hypocrisy of the Valar' in the LoTR forum. ;)