Re: Eriol's post, second to last of mine. Population Diminishment is Visible. A very, very strong reason is population diminishment; not enough people to maintain a strong Kingdom, which I think is the only reason we can give, if we are present in T.A 10. But any wise eye would know that to maintain a country, a country needs activity, which would keep the warriors and people busy, or else Civil war/strifes might occur, since ambitious people would have nothing to do to calm their adventurous spirits other then interfering in the matter's of Kingdoms. This would result in civil war and eventual distruction of the Kingdom. A natural item for the adventurous and ambitious people to satisfy their heart is expansion, occupation of other lands, wars, where Champions can show their bravery and prove their worth. But such was not the case in Arnor, since Gondor and Misty Mountains jarred it's way from further occupation of Lands. Naturally the champions and ambitions Kings would have nothing else to do then indulge themselves in the internal matters of the Kingdom, and they would want to prove their worth by fighting with other's of their order---the eventual result being destruction, as was the case in Arnor. Even at T.A 10, when the signs of petty quarells hadn't appeared, one could foresee them arising, due to the particular geogrophical and political reasons. Not to sound Ostentatious, but did Eru send these people on the spur of the moment at those places? It all depended on the personal choices and their was a very logical reason behind these events. Eru didn't interfere, It was all because of the personal choices and the turn of the events based on these choices. How can you prove this? It was not by chance and luck did Bilbo found the ring, the events happened in such a way that he was compelled to find the ring; the logic back it. Luck is never backed by Logic, but Bilbo's and Gollum's sojourns are backed by logic If you don't agree, then In the next post I'll explain how so. Why would he do that? If that's the case then why let the "screwing" happen? Eru does and will not interfere in the matters of Arda, except for special occasions. Well I don't buy it. According to logic, a weak Arnor would be no good, if we were to fight Sauron. Logic does not taken unto consideration luck. I would say again, Eru had no part in all this afair. Can you trade fertile grass away? Will you send all your animals to Gondor to be reared up and call them back to Arnor when they are well-fed and healthy? Trade here means that they could exchange food---but' that's no substitute for topographical elements. Food can be exchanged, but geography cannot. So what do you suppose should have happened? The fact is the King's had nothing to do, except to maintain their Kingdom, which was not threatened by any external element--Life was slow, dead and monotonous--contrary to Gondor's exciting atmosphere. And one could see this coming in T.A 10. Which would make the life comfortable, no excitement, no problems, nothing to do except to start petty quarell's and nitpick upon Government policies. The western bounds of Arnor, for the most part is, The Great Sea.