English to Elvish

Discussion in 'The Languages of Middle-earth' started by Mithrellas.Dagoranna, Oct 15, 2017.

  1. Mithrellas.Dagoranna

    Mithrellas.Dagoranna Heiress of Ecthelion of the Fountain

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    Can some of you translate these for me? I really appreciate that.

    TO QUENYA:
    -Listen to me!
    -No, I cannot.
    -Don't you trust me?
    -you filth!
    -I am a dwarf friend

    TO SINDARIN:
    -listen to me
    -but I cannot!
    -please..
    -you should/have to do it/that
    -I am a dwarf friend
    -you filth

    Maybe just those for now.if you want to recommend websited to learn Elvish, go ahead! Because it would be very useful!
    Thank you!
     
  2. Galin

    Galin Registered User

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    I would caution that what we often find on the web and in the films is fan invented Neo-elvish. That said, one of your requests can be (almost) rendered into actual Sindarin, as it's from the book: lasto beth lammen "listen to the word of my tongue"

    I'm guessing it's a little poetic for your needs... but it's actual Sindarin :)


    Anyway, I might be able to work up a possible Neo-Elvish version for "I am a dwarf friend"

    Neo-Quenya *Ni Casardil "I (am) a Dwarf-friend"

    Neo-Sindarin [in one source at least, mellon appears to be a masculine word for friend, feminine meldis] *Im vellon-en-Nogothrim "I (am) a friend of the Dwarves"

    Someone else could probably do more, or correct this much if it needs correcting! By the way, the article Negation in Quenya by Bill Welden, published in Vinyar Tengwar 42 cites a vocabulary list by JRRT from ca. 1960 with the following quote:

    "Q. 'yes'"

    ... and also cites an essay from ca. 1970 with the following quote:

    "Q. 'no'"

    :D

    "Go not to the Elves for counsel, for they will say both no and yes."
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2017

  3. Mithrellas.Dagoranna

    Mithrellas.Dagoranna Heiress of Ecthelion of the Fountain

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    Oh my! This is very helping! Le hannon, mellon amin! (Is it right??) But do you know any websites to use for translating English to Elvish? Or at least for the vocabularies. Thanks!!
     
  4. Galin

    Galin Registered User

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    Most folks use mellon nín "my friend" based on, for example, Tolkien's ered e·mbar nín "mountains of my home". Note the long vowel in the word nín, marked with an acute accent. Marking long vowels is important in Elvish, and are marked in Elvish writing too.

    Incidentally, in my example mellon has been "lenited" to vellon (lenition is a Sindarin/Welsh thing, for two language examples). Should it be lenited in my suggestion? Not quite sure!

    Regarding "Le Hannon or Hannon Le", that's used a lot in Neo-Sindarin, but this is a good example of Neo-Sindarin versus Sindarin. In his essay Elvish as She Is Spoke, Carl Hostetter explains (CE stands for "Common Eldarin" I'm guessing):

    "It was John Garth who first noted that the Quenya word han *‘beyond,’ and its apparent source, the CE root √han- ‘add to, increase, enhance, honour (espec. by gift),’ published in connection with Tolkien’s Quenya translations of the Lord’s Prayer, likely provided the actual source of Q. *hanta- ‘thank,’ in the sense ‘to increase, magnify, honor, glorify’ < CE *hantā-.

    Shortly after this, Bertrand Bellet noted the implication of this newly attested root and derivation for “Neo-Sindarin” *hanna- ‘thank,’ pointing out that since CE *h- disappears in Sindarin, CE *hantā- would yield S. *anna-, not *hanna-. But anna- already exists as a Sindarin verb, for ‘give.’


    "And so the “Neo-Sindarin” reconstruction *hanna- ‘thank’ and its signature phrase hannon le ‘I thank you’ disappear in a puff of phonology." Carl Hostetter​

    Also, Carl's website has a section on both web and book sources.

    http://www.elvish.org/

    I recommend reading the FAQ from this website before reading the resources section :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2017

  5. Mithrellas.Dagoranna

    Mithrellas.Dagoranna Heiress of Ecthelion of the Fountain

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    What is the Quenyan and Sindarin mode for "BLOOD,SWEAT, AND TEARS."

    Well it will be the title for my fanfiction. And it might be cool if I use elvish.
     
  6. Galin

    Galin Registered User

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    I admit I didn't look, but I doubt there's an Elvish word for sweat. Anyway Blood, Sweat and Tears is the name of an American music group, and so for folks as old as I am, this name brings up an unwanted connection.

    Blood and Tears sounds good to me, though obviously it's your title. Noting Tolkien's Haudh-en-Nirnaeth "Mound (hill) of (bitter) Tears" (nirnaeth "lamentation, tear-gnashing"), I would guess at a Neo-Sindarin version...

    Sereg a Nirnaeth

    And a Neo-Quenya...

    Serce ar Nier

    [nië "tear" plural nier "tears" based on tië plural tier]

    I like the invented Grey-elven better. Just my preference here. Also, sometimes there are other words I could be employing, for example Sindarin has more than one noun for blood, but since I always liked the word seregon "bloodstone"...

    ... I used sereg :)
     
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  7. Mithrellas.Dagoranna

    Mithrellas.Dagoranna Heiress of Ecthelion of the Fountain

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    Oh my god!! I really really really really really really love youuuu, @Galin. I love your answer. And BLOOD AND TEARS sounds good to me. It fits me. Thankssss.
     
  8. Galin

    Galin Registered User

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    Glad you like it :)

    I should explain that we can find various word for "and" in the Elvish corpus. Without going into the possibly confusing details, I chose a Sindarin form attested in The Lord of the Rings (at Moria Gate for instance) pedo mellon a minno "speak (say) friend and enter"...

    ... not only because it's published by Tolkien himself, but it occurs here before a nasal sound as well.

    Also there's
    Nainië "lament" in Quenya, if you don't like *nier "tears"
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2017
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  9. Mithrellas.Dagoranna

    Mithrellas.Dagoranna Heiress of Ecthelion of the Fountain

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    Wow. Thanks. Nier and nainië sounds good to me. I dont even know what to decide. Thanks btw.

    (For my fanfiction)
    What elvish language should I use (Sindarin or Quenya), if :

    -My main characters are both Noldo an Sinda.

    -Quenya and Sindarin are often spoken in it.

    -Many discussion about Eldar of the YT and FA (Noldorin and Sindarin at the time). Who were many back then unlike at TA or FO.

    So, SEREG A NIRNAETH or SERCE A NIER/NAINIË?
     
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  10. Galin

    Galin Registered User

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    Depends on time and place for example, but very generally...

    ... it's said that at the feast of Mereth Aderthad, twenty (sun) years after the coming of the Noldor to Middle-earth (First Age): "the tongue of the Grey-elves was most spoken even by the Noldor, for they learned swiftly the speech of Beleriand, whereas the Sindar were slow to master the tongue of Valinor."

    And when Thingol learned that (some of the) Noldor had killed Telerin Elves and stolen their ships, he banned the use of Quenya throughout his realm. So considering these factors:
    "The Exiles took the Sindarin tongue in all their daily uses, and the High Speech of the West was spoken only by the lords of the Noldor among themselves. Yet that speech lived ever as a language of lore, wherever any of that people dwelt."

    Quenya ultimately became like an "Elf-Latin", no longer a birth tongue, though still used for "ceremony, and for high matters of lore and song" by the Exiles.

    Sources, the constructed Silmarillion, JRRT and Christopher Tolkien
    The Return of the King, JRRT, Appendix F
     

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