Final Eldarin Genealogy

Discussion in '"The Silmarillion"' started by Inderjit S, Sep 26, 2003.

  1. Inderjit S

    Inderjit S Bootylicious

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  2. Gil-Galad

    Gil-Galad in love

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    Very interesting work Inderjit,can I use some things for a project I'm working on?pls.:rolleyes:
     

  3. Inderjit S

    Inderjit S Bootylicious

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    I didn't write it. Micheal Martinez did. It's taken from HoME 10-12. If you don't feel like copying him then I would be glad to help, if you want, since I am interested in the Finwean family trees and now that you have mentioned it I am intersted in this project. Though most of the info. would be the same since the sources I will use will be the one hes used for his essay.
     
  4. Gil-Galad

    Gil-Galad in love

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    No,acttually I'm not going to copy him.All I want is to provide some quotes from his essay.
    And can I ask you for some help,if I need it while I'm working on my project?
     

  5. Manwë Súlimo

    Manwë Súlimo High King of Arda

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  6. Bucky

    Bucky Registered User

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    Very interesting stuff....

    Christopher Tolkien should've read it before publishing The Silm. :eek:
     
  7. Burzum

    Burzum Noldorin Elitist

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    Did females have claim to the (high) kingship (or rather, queenship)?

    Elrond, who is of the house of Fingolfin but descended through Idril a female, did not have the claim before Gil-galad of the house of Finarfin, so this case seems to support the idea that males had the priority, but he was not fully elven; and I'm not sure if Dior the half-elven actually became the king of Doriath or not, but even if he did, the Noldorin tradition could be different from that of the Sindar.

    That Galadriel did not become queen is explained by the fact that Gil-galad is descended from Angrod who is the older borther of Galadriel. So no conclusive evidence is shown by the geneology.

    That both of them did not claim kingship or queenship after the death of Gil-galad seems to imply that either female lines were dispossessed of the right to kingship or that females could not be high queens and half-elves could not be high kings regardless of gender, but it might as well be that they both just voluntarily remained non-kings, seeing how they didn't claim any kingship/queenship at all, let alone the high kingship of the Noldor.
     
  8. Bucky

    Bucky Registered User

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    Michael Martinez writes some of the most speculative BS I've ever read on Tolkien - pure fantasy and little fact.
    Not that I even looked at this chart yet, lol.
     
  9. Sulimo

    Sulimo Registered User

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    Wow in some ways I feel betrayed. I never gave Angrod the time of day, and Gil Galad's not Fingon's son....Wow.

    Its a good thing Tolkien had good handwriting. Can you imagine having to dig through all those notes. God bless computers. Way to go Christopher! We love you bringing the in depth details of your father's work to light. Even if some of them reveal some slip-ups. I do not think anyone could have done any better.
     
  10. DerBerggeist

    DerBerggeist The Mountain Spirit

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    The link doesn't work for me :*confused:
     
  11. Elaini

    Elaini Lost in Eä

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    Some would still dispute the parentage of Gil-galad. In the other forums I've been in the opinions have been near even (though with Fingon a bit ahead).
     
  12. Alcuin

    Alcuin Registered User

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    There is an article by Renee Vink, “The Parentage of Gil-galad”, that goes through in detail all the various known changes in the lineage of Gil-galad. You can read it online. (It was written in 2003, redrafted in 2009, published in Lembas Extra 2012 and in by the Tolkien Society in 2015; the document itself and here for more information.)

    As Vink relates, Ereinion Gil-galad appears in Silmarillion as the son of Fingon son of Fingolfin:

    Fingolfin > Fingon > Gil-galad

    In Peoples of Middle-earth, he is Artanáro [Quenya] Rodnor [Sindarin] Gil-galad, son of Orodreth son of Angrod (and Eldalótë), son of Finarfin.

    Finarfin > Angrod > Orodreth > Gil-galad

    In War of the Jewels, he is as Christopher Tolkien reports him in Silmarillion, but his name is not Ereinion but rather Findor. And discussing the letter of Tar Meneldur in PoMe, CJRT mentions that his father has Meneldur address him as “Finellach Gil-galad of the House of Finarfin” in the first version, “Ereinion Gil-galad son of Fingon” in the second.

    At another point, Tolkien apparently used [Finrod?] Felagund as Gil-galad’s father.

    Vink does not explicitly point out that Orodreth is alternately the brother of Finrod Felagund King of Nargothrond, or the nephew of Finrod as son of his brother Angrod.

    She mentions Michael Martinez’s article, and says that he “is among those who consider Tolkien’s last version to be decisive precisely because it is the last one.” She rejects that conclusion; I do, too, but for reasons other than hers.

    Her conclusion is one with which I concur: Gil-galad is the son of Orodreth, son of Finarfin, and brother of Finduilas, hapless true love of Turin Turambar.

    Vink’s conclusion is, not listed in order of birth,

    Finarfin
    ├────────┬───────┬───────────┐
    Orodreth Finrod (Galadriel) (Others)
    ├─────────┐
    Gil-galad Finduilas
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2018
  13. Elaini

    Elaini Lost in Eä

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    It is just that I once saw "the Tolkien Professor" Corey Olsen a live stream in the official channel of Lotro. I play the game because there is a server of roleplayers that actually have a higher than average knowledge about the lore, and themed kinships. He answered the question on Gil-Galad's parentage with "Who knows!" and concluded that Tolkien never truly settled his mind about the matter, so both answers (Fingon or Orodreth) are right and wrong.

    The question just happens to be somewhat important for me what comes to filling in the blanks of the characters I roleplay so it has caused me a bit of a headache.

    It slightly confuses me that Finduilas never mentioned having an actual brother, mainly vague remarks like "even as the lords of the people of Fingolfin; I would I had a brother so valiant". No piece seems to fit in the Gil-Galad puzzle perfectly.