Gandalf's words to Balrog

Discussion in '"The Lord of the Rings"' started by Thorin, Dec 30, 2001.

  1. Thorin

    Thorin LOTR Purist to the end

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    " You cannot pass. I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun. Go back to the shadow! You cannot pass."

    Gandalf to Balrog on Bridge of Khazad-dum
    __________________________

    I believe that Anor was ultimately meant to be Aman according to "HoME X, Morgoth's Ring." Any idea what the secret flame is?

    Also the Balrogs were subject to Morgoth and were never in Sauron's service. You might say that they were renegades after Morgoth was finally defeated by the Valar. Udun is the area between Isenmouth and Morannon in Mordor. Considering that Morgoth's domain was never in Mordor but North Beleriand, why did Gandalf call it "flame of Udun"? Was it because the evil it represents was now in the form of Sauron in Mordor? Sort of a indirect, general association with evil? But if that is the case, why not call it "flame of Barad-dur"?
     
  2. Snaga

    Snaga The Usual Suspect

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    Top question Thorin, I'd been thinking about that myself and meaning to look it up. Doesn't Anor mean Sun, as in Minas Anor the old name for Minas Tirith? Can't help beyond that though.
     

  3. Ragnarok

    Ragnarok Grand Master (Funk)

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    I know all the answers!

    The Secret Flame is Gandalf's Ring, which was given to him by Cirdan. The Ring is one of the Three Elven Rings. It is Narya, Ring of Flame.

    Udun is Sindarin for Utumno, Melkor's ancient fortress. It is also a valley in Mordor. But here it means Utumno.

    When Gandalf says shadow, that doesnt just mean Sauron, it means all the Dark Lords and evil. He's telling him to go back from wherever he came.

    I think you made a mistake, cause I thought Amon is sun. As in Amon-sul (Weathertop). And sun means light and light means good so it could be a metaphor for Good.

    Hope that helps!:cool:
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2001
  4. Greymantle

    Greymantle Registered User

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    I don't think the Secret Fire is Narya... not that I have any real evidence to back it up. I personally speculated that it might represent the Flame of Iluvatar... why, I'm not sure. Gut feeling?

    As for the "flame of Anor"... Thorin says that Anor is Aman, and the Elven Rings most certainly did not some out of Aman. This would make it odd for the "flame of Anor" to be Narya... but what other fires does he "weild?"
     

  5. Snaga

    Snaga The Usual Suspect

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    Moria in general

    I wanted to come back to this thread, and perhaps broaden it out too. I felt this was a bit inconclusive... if I was a scholar of elvish I might want to translate some of the words Gandalf uses to light the fire on Caradhras. But I'm not!

    The broader question I want to pitch in was how much influence did Sauron have over Moria?

    At one point in FotR Gandalf says:

    Later when the fellowship reach Lorien, Haldir (I think) says that they were on their guard because a large band of orcs had headed up to Moria a few days previously. Was this Sauron sending his boys up there?

    This links with a separate point which is that after they are nearly spotted by the crebain from Dunland, there is a point where the Fellowship sense something overhead, but don't know what it is. One theory would say that it was a Nazgul, and in fact Sauron was much more on their tail all along than I'd previously guessed, and sends the Uruks up to get them. I dunno - just a thought. Any views?
     
  6. Greenleaf

    Greenleaf Of the Sacried wood

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    I don't think Sauron had so much influence as it was just infested with evil. The dwarfs delved to deep and awakened too much. Sauron may have had something to do with the trouble they (the fellowship) had in Moria, but I think mainly it was just not a nice place to go.


    ------Later when the fellowship reach Lorien, Haldir (I think) says that they were on their guard because a large band of orcs had headed up to Moria a few days previously. Was this Sauron sending his boys up there?-----

    I don't remember that in the book could you give an exact quote?
     
  7. Eonwe

    Eonwe Upper Class Twit

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    I love these words, and I guess I thought of them like Greymantle...

    I always felt like he was saying "Get back, I am a Maia, not of Men, so you won't kill me that easily"
     
  8. Beorn

    Beorn In the shadows Staff Member

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  9. Arathin

    Arathin Sic Lucreat Lux

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    I believe that Sauron probably had something to do with the Orcs in Moria, but...
    The Orcs all high-tailed outta there when the Balrog came. I think Sauron had meant to stop them there, but that the Balrog was not on his side. Moria was probably just the things home, and it didn't like trespassers.
    But in considering all this, we must also consider that there had always been Orcs in Moria since the Dwarves left. The Balrog might have had a deal with the Orcs. Something like, You can live here as long as you stay out of my way. The Balrog also might have been more of a slave-driver to the Moria Orcs. They feared it, that we know for certain, but they also might have worked for it. Hence the whip.
     
  10. Dengen-Goroth

    Dengen-Goroth Dark Lord of Arda

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    All Balrogs had whips, along with their sowrds. The tongues of flame. That's basically all I can say, though I know there is a quote about this in the Silmarillion.
     
  11. Ragnarok

    Ragnarok Grand Master (Funk)

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    I dont think the Balrog was directly under Sauron's control. But I think the Balrog recognized Sauron's power and that he was coming back to life.
     
  12. Arathin

    Arathin Sic Lucreat Lux

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    I don't know. The Balrog might have appeared because it knew that some evil power was around again for it to join with.
    I do think that Sauron sent Orcs. Maybe they were a show of "friendship" from him to the Balrog.
     
  13. aragil

    aragil Just another loremaster

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    I always interpreted Gandalf to be saying that he had narya when he said he was the wielder of the flame of Anor. I'm not sure in what way you would wield the flame of Illuvatar, or the flame of the undying lands. Wielding flame through the ring seems more tangible, and is something that Gandalf does often in the books. Anor is Sindarin for Sun, the sun was guided by Arien, who was a spirit of fire. I think this might be a way for Gandalf to contrast the flame he had with that of the Balrog, who had also originally been a spirit of fire. Gandalf has long kept the ring a secret (as have the other bearers of the elven rings), and by referring to it in sindarin, he is still keeping it a secret from all but Legolas, Aragorn, and the Balrog. Therefore the ring could be interpreted as the 'secret fire'.
    As for the orcs, I seriously doubt that Uruks from Mordor would just be hanging out in Moria. Haldir describes orcs moving from the south up to Moria on p. 445 of my copy of FOTR, about 14 pages into 'Lothlorien', right after Sam and Frodo join him on the talan:
    'We have been keeping watch on the rivers, ever since we saw a great troop of Orcs going north toward Moria, along the skirts of the mountains many days ago.'
    I think that this was Sauron's force to intercept the fellowship, much as Ugluk lead Saruman's intercepting force. Perhaps some spy of Sauron's did see the fellowship in Eregion. Maybe Sauron did control the storm on Caradhras, seeking to drive the fellowship into his waiting forces in Moria?
     
  14. Lantarion

    Lantarion no house

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    Getting back to the 'flame'

    I also think it meant Iluvatar, or the Flame Imperishable; because Gandalf (Olorin) was a Maia, he was created by Iluvatar, right? Therefore some of his thought must have gone into the Maiar. So I think that all of the Maiar, including the Istari, knew of Iluvatar and the FI, but they didn't want to speak about it because they thought that the people of M-e could not comprehend the immeasurable power of Eru. So I think when Gandlaf says he is the 'servant of the Secret Fire', I think he's trying to intimidate the Balrog into realizing that he was a Maia, and a pretty powerful one too, and that he was on direct orders from Aule. After all, the Balrog was a Maia too.
     
  15. BluestEye

    BluestEye Registered User

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    The Two Trees

    Exactly. This is also my opinion. I think that Gandalf is saying to the Balrog something like: "Hey, mister! You are very great and powerful and so big, that maybe you are not paying attention to whom is standing in front of you: I am one like you, a Maia, but I come from the Good party!"
    But I thought about another thing (and I am sorry if I'm getting a little into the Sil instead of sticking to the LOTR, but this will be short... I promise. :) In Aman there were the 2 trees, and when the Silmarills were made, the Light of the dying trees was put inside them (inside the three Silmarills). So maybe Gandlaf is speaking about the same source of light? In this way, Gandalf's saying connects him to Aman... Who put this Light into the Trees? Does someone remember this?

    BluestEye
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2002
  16. Grond

    Grond Melkor's Mallet

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    Re: The Two Trees

    Er.... that would have been Yavanna.:)
     
  17. gaffer

    gaffer Registered User

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    i know what you mean about the light of the trees and whatnot, and that is perceptive, but that's a different light. he IS talking about the flame imperishable, though, the fire of lluvatar.
     
  18. BluestEye

    BluestEye Registered User

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    Bright Light! Bright Light!

    But it could be that Yavanna gave this light to Gandalf to keep for the Valar while he is on his mission in Middle-Earth. If Yavanna put the light in the Trees, why not giving Gandalf the Flame Imperishable as well? Maybe she was the keeper of these kind of "Lights"...
    Another thing: what about Galadriel's Lamp? She gave it to Frodo but it is only said that it contained the same source of light that the Silmarills had. What is this light anyway? Maybe the Flame Imperishable is devided between many devices, magical ones, in Middle-Earth and are kept by the Greatest of beings. Gandalf, Galadriel (And Frodo for some time) between them... I know it sounds a little crazy but... couldn't it be?

    BluestEye
     
  19. Merry

    Merry Has chubby cheeks

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    The Silmarillion says that Sauron was lieutenant of all Melkors forces, including the Balrogs. I reckon that they were directly under his influence once they had been unearthed by the greedy dwarves.
     
  20. Elanor2

    Elanor2 Registered User

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    Aragil said:

    >>>Anor is Sindarin for Sun, the sun was guided by Arien, who was a spirit of fire. <<<

    I think that could be an answer. If I remember correctly, the Sil says that some "spirits of fire" (Maiars) went to Morgoth side and became Balrogs, but others remained loyal. One of them was Ariel, a maiden that was chosen to direct the vessel of the sun (Anor), last fruit of the tree Laurelin (if I remember correctly). Ariel had assistants in this task.

    It could be that the Secret Flame of Anor is, in Aman, a group of Maiar whose taks is to tend and help Ariel carrying the sun. That could have been one of Gandalf duties before coming to ME, so the sentence could mean that he was skilled in power and handling sacred fires, thus capable of confronting another Maiar-Balrog.

    I agree with others. The title that Gandalf gives himself seem to be something that a Balrog would understand and fear, probably something related to times before the rings were forged. I do not think that the elven rings, created for healing and beauty, had much power over a Balrog, but a servant of the Sun, who drives dispair into the hearts of the evil-ones, might.

    Regards. Elanor2.