Gandalf's words to Balrog

Discussion in '"The Lord of the Rings"' started by Thorin, Dec 30, 2001.

  1. BluestEye

    BluestEye Registered User

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    Very beautiful, Elanor2!
    I take that one.

    BluestEye
     
  2. JanitorofAngmar

    JanitorofAngmar Serving Evil since FA 1

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    Huh???

    O.K.

    I am way out of my league here cause I never read the Sil. But what is this stuff about the moria Balrog serving Sauron? Is there not a point in the FOTR where Gandalf says something to the effect of:

    ...Not all things evil are servents of Sauron [referring here to the Balrog] although they may know of him...some are much older than him and...have thier own malice...or something..

    I don't have the books handy so I can't look it up right now.

    Anyone else recognise this terrible butchering of a quote?

    JoA
     

  3. Grond

    Grond Melkor's Mallet

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    Re: Huh???

    Many of the evil things were created by and subservient to Melkor, the "Real" Dark Lord to whom Sauron was merely a man-servant. And I will disagree that the Balrog would be subservient to Sauron. The army of Balrogs reported directly to Melkor and I am not sure would recognize anyone elses claim of overlordship. Sauron was Melkor's Lt. but didn't control the Balrogs or the Wurms (dragons). Sauron had his own army and his own fortress to the East of Angband, which is outlined in the Sil (which I don't have in front of me.) Also, Gothmog, was High Captain of the Angmar, where as Sauron was only Lt.

    That is confusing as in the Sil it states that second only to Melkor in evil was Gorthaur the Cruel (Sauron). Anybody got any ideas?
     
  4. Feanor

    Feanor Registered User

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    Maybe Sauron was 2nd to Melkor in evil and even power. He was definitely the most cunning and malicious of his servants. Perhaps recognizing Sauron's great potential, Melkor distrusted him and purposely kept him in a lower rank than Gothmog and away from the main HQ at Angband.

    Some other misinfo in the previous posts:

    Gandalf said there are 'older and fouler things in the depths..' but never did he say it was older than Sauron.

    Also, Yavanna did create the 2 trees but it was Varda (aka Elbereth) who filled them w light (not the flame imperishable). This light was of such beauty that it was not even in her power to EVER again create such light for a part of her power went into them (much like Sauron and the One Ring).

    Also, Feanor's silmarils were not filled w the light of the dying trees. They were filled w the light of the LIVING trees in all their majesty and glory. So great were these jewels that no mortal hand could grasp them. The light of Earendil I believe has its source in the light from a Silmaril.

    I don't know how the lights of the lamps (v long ago; Grond may remember- Grond was it you who struck down the lamps?)compare to the light of the trees but I think the trees' light was the greater.

    I hope I didn't go too off topic but I hate seeing misinfo posted as it can be v misleading to newbies.
     

  5. JanitorofAngmar

    JanitorofAngmar Serving Evil since FA 1

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    Aaahhhh!

    And once again Grond "knocks the door down!"

    Thank you for that straigtening out!:D
     
  6. Rian

    Rian Registered User

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    I love threads like this. There are so many possibilities and viewpoints regarding Gandalf's words. At first, I thought that he was talking about the elven ring. I'm beginning to lean towards the belief that he was refering to himself as a maia of fire.
     
  7. gil-estel

    gil-estel Registered User

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    He refers to the Flame Imperishible-ie the one created by Eru and sought by Morgoth. Hes basically saying i work for Eru so u ain't gonna win this one
     
  8. gaffer

    gaffer Registered User

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    gil-estel is DEFINITELY correct. i'm going to look through my tolkien reference books, because i'm positive that i read a quote saying that it's true.
     
  9. Eonwe

    Eonwe Upper Class Twit

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    Some great replies to this thread! My 2 cents:

    1) The key point (I think) is that to the Balrog, Gandalf maybe really did just look like a man. I.e. he was put into the body of a man, and therefore perhaps (I am guessing) the Balrog didn't notice his spirit side (like Frodo noticed Glorfindel after putting on the ring). So Gandalf was trying to let him know he was in for a fight?

    2) Gandalf did say that the nameless things were older than Sauron and that Sauron did not know them: "Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he." --TT The White Rider. This to me is a troubling passage, except if you take it like some people take Bombadil, a spirit that is not a Maia or Vala?? Wierd.

    3) Morgoth held Utumno and Sauron led the vangaurd at Angband. Although I agree that there is some written evidence of Gothmog being above Sauron, I think there are many places in the book where Sauron was #2 to Morgoth. Certainly in cruelty?

    4) There is a reference somewhere to how Sauron might have used the dragon of Erebor to terrible effect. I think the same applies to the Balrog. I think that eventually Sauron would have forcefully "persuaded" the Balrog to fight with him. (anyone who could persuade Smaug might have a chance with a Balrog?). Just conjecture. Perhaps the Balrog in Sauron's mind was meant to lead the charge against Lorien with the forces of Dol Guldur. But I would agree that it would not necessarily be subservient to Sauron.

    Fortunately the dragon and the Balrog were not a part of Sauron's plans at the final battle, thanks to Gandalf's work!:D

    5) The light of Earendil (Venus) is a Silmaril.

    My question is: why did Gandalf make him stop at the bridge? Was he afraid they would not escape? Does the fact that the Balrog fell answer the question that Balrogs do not have wings (HAHAHHAA)
     
  10. Grond

    Grond Melkor's Mallet

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    Okay...real quick

    1) Already quoted that evil things older than Sauron inhabited the Earth. Another enigma of JRRT that something could be older than a Maia (since they helped in the Ainulindale and sang the song which created Arda).
    2) Yavanna created the trees and imbued them with light. You will not find in the Silmarillion where it speaks of Varda having any influence over Telperion and Laurelin. You are thinking of the lamps of Arda.
    3) Agreed. Light of the Living Trees that later died at the hands of Melkor and Ungoliant.
    4) Earendil's light source is Beren and Luthien's silmaril that is bound to Earendil's head. (How cool is it for Elrond to watch his father sail the heavens every night??? Too cool!!!!)
    5) Lamps came first and Yavanna wrought them and Varda filled them with light. They were located in Middle-earth during the period that the Vala dwelt there before they established Valinor.

    Whew! Did that answer them all???? And I haven't contributed anything to the thread.
    :(
     
  11. Feanor

    Feanor Registered User

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    1) Already quoted that evil things older than Sauron inhabited the Earth. Another enigma of JRRT that something could be older than a Maia (since they helped in the Ainulindale and sang the song which created Arda).
    2) Yavanna created the trees and imbued them with light. You will not find in the Silmarillion where it speaks of Varda having any influence over Telperion and Laurelin. You are thinking of the lamps of Arda.
    3) Agreed. Light of the Living Trees that later died at the hands of Melkor and Ungoliant.
    4) Earendil's light source is Beren and Luthien's silmaril that is bound to Earendil's head. (How cool is it for Elrond to watch his father sail the heavens every night??? Too cool!!!!)
    5) Lamps came first and Yavanna wrought them and Varda filled them with light. They were located in Middle-earth during the period that the Vala dwelt there before they established Valinor.

    1)OK, I can't find that quote, the one I see is from the chpt Journey in the Dark where he says, "there are older and fouler things than orcs in the deep places of the world". But if he did say 'older than Sauron' this could be possible since in the Ainulindule it states that the Valar came first and then, a bit later, the Maia were called by Manwe to help as servants in the creation of Arda. Sauron was initially a Maia of Aule. So it is possible that his arrival on Arda was AFTER some things already existent on Arda. This coming of the Maia was after Melkor claimed the world as his own and maybe Melkor already created beings at that time.

    2)I'm totally wrong here, Yes it does say that Yavanna created the trees and their light. Although Varda did collect the dews and rain from the trees in great vats like shining lakes.

    5) You are indeed a mighty lore master Grond, but in this you are wrong- it was AULE who wrought the lamps and subsequently filled w light by Varda.

    Also, in the section 'Of the Enemies' it states that Sauron was greatest in might of the servants of Melkor.
     
  12. Grond

    Grond Melkor's Mallet

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    I stand corrected.... I was reading the Sil way too fast. The lamps were indeed a creation of Aule at the bidding of his mate Yavanna. Whew. But two out of three ain't bad. Isn't there a song to that effect.:)

    And the quote we seek is from The Two Towers, Chapter 5, The White Rider. Gandalf is describing his encounter with the Balrog to Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas and he states, "Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report ot darken the light of day..."

    BTW, what is this thread about anyway?
    ;)
     
  13. BluestEye

    BluestEye Registered User

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    Great! Things are getting clearer! :)
    By the way, Eonwe, actualy people say that Tom Bombadil was a Maia after all...

    BluestEye
     
  14. Grond

    Grond Melkor's Mallet

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    Darn BluestEye, I keep trying to agree with you and then can't find a way. In the Letter's of JRRT, he clearly states that he never envisioned Tom as a Maia. He stated that Tom was an enigma that was a kind of unexplainable occurence in the book. He goes on to detail that Tom was an earlier (nonMiddle-earth) creation of his (actually I think his child's doll was named Tom Bombadil) and that he wanted to find a place in the novel to "fit him in". I'm sure Cian (who is very up to date on the letters) will correct me. I will send him a PM directing to this link so he may add any clarification.:)

    I actually found them in another post from Mike B. Here are the quotes by the author.

    quote:
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "As a story, I think it is good that there should be a lot of things unexplained (especially if an explanation actually exists);
    ... And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally)."
    (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, p. 174)
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    quote:
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Tom was originally a doll (with blue jacket and yellow boots) owned by Tolkien's son Michael. The doll inspired a story fragment, such as he often invented for his children's amusement. That fragment was in turn the basis for the poem "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil",
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    source: www.tolkien.cro.net
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2002
  15. Eonwe

    Eonwe Upper Class Twit

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    Geez, childhood doll huh? How much different would the story have been if it had been Winnie the Pooh? "Oh high there Goldberry, could I have a small smakerel of honey, hmm?"
     
  16. BluestEye

    BluestEye Registered User

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    Thank you for the clarification, Grond. :)
    I never read the "Letters". I always thought Tom was a Maia. It is said so in many books and Tolkien "encyclopedias". But this is the reason I wrote: "People say", and not "Tolkien say".
    It is quite amusing that the Ring doesn't affect Tom when he holds it and put it on his finger. It shows in a way that he is not from that world, and (taking what you said) even not from that reality. He is from another universe, like a link between Middle-Earth and our world. I like this idea.

    BluestEye
     
  17. Arathin

    Arathin Sic Lucreat Lux

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    Actually, BluestEye, I believe that no such connection is needed, or even exists. You see, Tolkien based his books, in large part, on World War Two. He wrote them based on our own world. Albeit, a different "dimension". I think Tom Bombadil was just a "for fun" charactor. I write books, and love throwing them in because it starts these kinds of conversations. What do the rest of you think?
     
  18. Grond

    Grond Melkor's Mallet

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    Welcome Arathin. Hail and well met.

    Your comments concerning WWII are likely to start a hailstorm of debate on the forum as the author repeatedly denied your very statement. He always categorically denied writing allegory as you'll see if you do a search on allegory. There are numerous threads where that very subject has been under intense debate in the past. Look one up and swing away.:)
     
  19. Arathin

    Arathin Sic Lucreat Lux

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    I didn't mean to start a riot, but the introduction to my TLoR does say things to that affect. I am new and have almost no clue what has happened in the past here.
     
  20. Lorien

    Lorien Registered

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    so Bombadil wasnt a Maia???then what was he??and if he wasnt something "special" how was he portrayed to be so strong and "magical" etc......