Discussion in '"The Lord of the Rings"' started by Thorin, Dec 30, 2001.
S. amon means "hill" and is used in hill & "mountain names".
Lorien, he was portrayed as someone strong and "magical" because he was strong and "magical". There are beings in the works that we don't know the origins of such as Ungoliant. She too was strong and "magical", weaving webs of deceit through out the forests north of "The Girdle of Melian". So, Tom is not the only enigma in the works. I feel Ungoliant is as big an enigma as Tom.
I dont know what exactly Tom was, probably a Maia, but I don't think he could've wielded the Ring without effect outside of his realm of the Old Forest/Barrow downs.
Feanor, read this post again. It is clear that the author did not intend for Tom to be classified as anything.
Now that I've distanced myself from the ridiculous movie forum, I can get back to talking about the stuff that really matters: Tolkien!!
Grond, the initial post was the explanation of Gandalf's words to the Balrog. Udun is not only the area in Mordor, but the name fro Utumno, Morgoth's realm.
And yes, as was stated, there is no living thing that is older than Sauron as a Maia, but in terms of his being on ME, Treebeard and other nameless things under the earth, are older then he is. He did after all, take two different bodily forms on his time there.
It is probably easy to think of Bombadil as a Maia because he says that he was around before the first acorn and before the elves went west (which was after they awoke). Considering that the Elves were Eru's first creation, the only explanation to Bombadil was that he was either a Valar or Maia. Tolkien doesn't say either way, but says that he is an enigma.
He could be Eru...
True, he could be, but I doubt that for some reason.
Woah, hold yer horses!
I don't want this to become another Tom B.- thread: we have about three of them already, all dealing with and asking the same questions. I suggest all who are interested in Tolkien's Enigma go to these already existing threads.
hear hear Ponti!
(Translation: yes I agree)
(Translation: yo cuzI'mdownwithdat)
(Translation: no mo' TB stuff)
Hear hear Ponti!
Hear hear Eonwe!
ie see above for definions
I moved this to LOTR from the archives because I thought this was an interesting discussion.
As the OP stated, should this have been flame of Aman? Anor is Elvish for Sun but other than that, I don't see why Gandalf would reference this flame?
Or maybe it should have been Anar, which is what the Vanyar referred to the Sun as. This is translated to The Fire-Golden.
My take on this is that "Servant of the secret fire" means servant of the flame imperishable, but "Wielder of the flame of Anor" is still a mystery to me. Indeed it might be be related to Aman, maybe it has something to do with the forging/sorcery techniques that Celebrimbo used to craft it?.
I recall having read that Tolkien spoke of, The Secret Fire as a sort of gift from Eru, a soul or animating spirit which is indwelt in his creation. So in a sense I've always considered The Secret Fire to be a kind of Holy Spirit. As such, it has something to do with the knowledge of good vs evil. Freewill in a sense. Morgorth's servants were corrupted as was all of his creation and therefore possessed no such freewill but the Ainur, the Childrin of Ilúvatar and Aulë's dwarves (once granted by Eru) did possess it.
So I think what Gandalf is saying is, "I'm one of the good guys, a Maia like you but unlike you I possess within me the light of Eru so I am unbeatable."
Perhaps Gandalf is saying he wields the power of the Sun, and can channel its flame, much like he did with the trolls. At the first rising of the Sun all the servants of Morgoth fled from it. This Balrog has not seen the Sun in ages, so it seems the power of the Sun would be specially effective.
The Secret Fire to me is a soul, in the beginning the spirits of the Valar shaped or created the many elements, and mastered them. Elves, Men and Dwarves were given bodies, and became the masters of their own lives.
So, was the Anor/Anar thing just a grammar mistake?. Does he really mean the sun?.
I do not know, but I doubt Gandalf (or Tolkien) would be making mistakes there. I was only thinking back to the older tales, the Sun was born from the fruit of Laurelin, so it is a Holy Light, unlike the flames of Melkor. But I think Gandalf would only use such force in his greatest need.
Ok so i just realized that Anor means "The sun" in Sindarin. Yeah i'm a little slow sorry. Putting the Belryg aside, the flames of Melko, i think did not emanate from him, i believe he just used them just like he used ice and every other matter in Arda.
No need to be sorry, and as to the flames of Melkor, I was in a sense referring to the Balrogs, the fire-demons. Melkor set all the world ablaze, before ever the stars were kindled, a jealous and hateful fire was his device.
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