Glorfindel and Haldir

Discussion in '"The Silmarillion"' started by Bethelarien, Mar 10, 2003.

  1. Bethelarien

    Bethelarien The Lost Evenstar

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    In the Silmarillion, both Glorfindel and Haldir die. Glorfindel dies, I believe, after his battle with the balrog. Haldir dies in battle. However, both appear in The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring. How is this possible? I can think of two possibilities.

    1) The Valar decided to send them back, their missions were not perhaps accomplished. (This seems the most likely to me, personally.)

    or

    2) Perhaps they were different elves, having the same name.

    Or, a third solution is possible. Perhaps they didn't truly die.

    Any ideas?
     
  2. Celebithil

    Celebithil Senior Journeyman

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    I don't know about Haldir but Glorfindel was rehoused by the Valar and brought back to ME because of the sacrifice he mad fighting the Balrog and letting the others escape.
     

  3. Ithrynluin

    Ithrynluin seeker of solace Staff Member

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    Haldir was a Man of the house of Haleth and he lived in the First Age.

    Haldir of Lórien was an Elf in the 3rd Age.
     
  4. Niniel

    Niniel Random Quoter

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    In the Letters (no. 212) Tolkien writes something interesting:
    This seems to suggest that every Elf who died was eventually reborn, and not just some of them. So it is possible that all Elves who have the same name are actually the same individuals.
    But, the only Haldir in the Sil is Haldir son of Halmir of Brethil, so he is a Man, and of course not identical to Haldir the Elf.
    (As you all pointed out before me.. someone called on the phone just when I wanted to post the reply... ). But, I what do you think about what Tolkien says? Are all Elves reborn? I was very surprised to read that.
     

  5. Confusticated

    Confusticated Registered User

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    From Glorfindel II, in Peoples of Middle-earth:


    Aside from the two mentioned in the Silmarillion to stay in Mandos until the end, Finrod says in Morgoth's Ring that Aegnor will stay in Mandos until the end.

    I don't know where to look to find out how great of a portion of Mandos-goers ended up staying until the end.
     
  6. Bethelarien

    Bethelarien The Lost Evenstar

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    Ooops. I forgot Haldir was a man. That makes sense, as does the reincarnation stuff (I guess).

    Thanks everyone!
     
  7. Mirabella

    Mirabella Daughter of Gerontius

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    My recollection of events in The Simarillion is a little fuzzy, so could anyone tell me who was the other from the Simarillion doomed to remain in Mandos until the end? Also, why would Aegnor be likewise doomed?
     
  8. Inderjit S

    Inderjit S Bootylicious

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    Feanor and Finwe will forever remain in Mandos. feanor because of hisdeeds, and Finwe because he forfeited his life so Miriel could live again.
     
  9. Mirabella

    Mirabella Daughter of Gerontius

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    I really need to get another copy of The Sim...I thought Finwe was killed by Morgoth? I don't remember anything that suggested Finwe sacrificed himself for Miriel, nor can I imagine why such a sacrifice would be necessary if it is indeed the will of Iluvatar that all Elves be rehoused if they desire it. And I still don't know why Aegnor would be held indefinately.

    Sorry to be such a pain, but this has really peaked my curiousity! :)
     
  10. Sirion

    Sirion finding keepeth

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    What about Aegnor? He didn't do anything bad and died fighting Melko, why is he stuck until the end?
     
  11. Inderjit S

    Inderjit S Bootylicious

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    I don't think he is.

    Maybe it is because he loved a mortal, though that would be wholly unfair and Finduilas should be kept to.
     
  12. Inderjit S

    Inderjit S Bootylicious

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  13. FoolOfATook

    FoolOfATook I'm Still Alive...

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    You are probably thinking of Fingolfin, who was slain by Morgoth in combat.
     
  14. Ithrynluin

    Ithrynluin seeker of solace Staff Member

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    Finwë was also slain by Morgoth.

    From Of the Flight of the Noldor:

     
  15. Mirabella

    Mirabella Daughter of Gerontius

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    If this is true, I simply cannot see why Finwe would have had to remain in Mandos so that Miriel could live again. If Finwe chose to remain, it makes more sense to me that he chose such a fate because his beloved son Feanor was doomed to remain in Mandos forever. After all, he forsook the kingship of the Noldor when Feanor was banned from the City of the Valar.

    I guess Aegnor, being in love with a mortal woman, could have chosen to remain in Mandos if he was not capable of finding happiness in Aman without her.
     
  16. Inderjit S

    Inderjit S Bootylicious

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    Nope-It was for Miriel.
     
  17. Mirabella

    Mirabella Daughter of Gerontius

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    LOL...well, I can't wait until I can locate a copy of Morgoth's Ring to read about this myself. All I am saying is that the idea of Finwe remaining in Mandos so that Miriel could live again, when she should have already had the option of being rehoused since she was an Elf, doesn't make sense :)
     
  18. Arvedui

    Arvedui Stargazer

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    She had the option, but did not want to come back.
    (If my memory serves me right)
     
  19. Confusticated

    Confusticated Registered User

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    Ah... I wasn't even refering to Finwe with my comment. Didn't mean to get things complicated.

    I ment the published Silmarillion (should have specified), the one that we all know, so I was refering to Feanor, and Miriel.

    Sorry I could not address this sooner. Though I knew about Finwe case, I had not read it myself. I don't like to answer questions who's answers I have not read for myself directly from the book.

    But I just read this all tonight, so here goes.

    In short, the only way that Finwe could have a second wife is if the Union with his first wife were undone, and this could only be so because Miriel would remain in Mandos forever.

    It was actually written and can be found in Morgoth's Ring that after Finwe died, he chose to remain in Mandos forever so that Miriel could leave it.

    Further, it was upon meeting Finwe in Mandos that her greif was lessend and she then spoke of a desire to use her body again, and Finwe suggested that Mandos might let her go if he would stay, and Mandos allowed this.

    There was a Statute of Miriel and Finwe made because of this case, and there is interesting debate among the Valar that went along with it. It was an intelligent conversation (a daresay it pushed my reading level), and so far as I know, for some of the Valar, the biggest chunks of dialog that can be found. They debated about why Miriel died in Aman (among other things), as far as: was it Iluvatar's doings and a payment for the great Feanor, or was it because of Arda marred, and a thing which would be turned into good use.

    As for Aegnor, his brother says he will go to Mandos and remain there until the end. He does not clearly state why that is, though it is implied, but still open to interpretation I suppose.

    It is my interpretation that as Mirabella suggested, he would not find happiness. This may have been in part because he thought that Andreth herself would not find happiness, and not just that he would have to exist in bodily form without a spouse.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2003
  20. Mirabella

    Mirabella Daughter of Gerontius

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    Thanks for getting back in this, Nom. So if I understand what you said, Miriel remained in Mandos so that Finwe could remarry, in effect forfeiting her right to be rehoused. Then when she had her change of heart, Finwe made the same sacrifice for her.

    If my summation is correct, this is suddenly becoming more clear to me :)