Discussion in '"The Silmarillion"' started by Turgon, Jun 28, 2002.

  1. Turgon

    Turgon Ghost-King of Gondolin

    Speculations of the lineage of Glorfindel...

    Putting these three statements together it would seem reasonable to suppose that Glorfindel was a prince of the House of Finarfin, that is to say a decendant of Finarfin himself. Yet there is no direct mention of this in any of Tolkien's work. At least I cannot find anything to support this idea one way or the other.

    Is it possible that Glorfindel is indeed a Prince of the House of Finarfin? If so from which line is he he descended? Finrod we are told had no children. There is mention in 'The Grey Annals' in vol. XI of HoME of a certain Haldir son of Orodreth, one possibility. Finduilas we can presume died without issue. Angrod and Aegnor, are also possible fathers of this Golden-haired Noldorin prince.

    On the other hand it seems strange to me that Tolkien would make no definite statement upon Glorfindel's lineage, if indeed he did envision him as descendant of Finarfin. Was this an oversight in his part or an issue he never quite got around to addressing?

    Any thoughts?
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2002
  2. Thorin

    Thorin LOTR Purist to the end

    I think he may be a relative but not directly descended from Finarfin's line. He was in Turgon's service in Gondolin and it only makes sense that Glorfindel would be of Turgon's folk. So my guess is that Glorfindel is of the house of Fingolfin..

    That is speculation of course. I don't have the time or energy to look anything up.
  3. Turgon

    Turgon Ghost-King of Gondolin

    But the princes of Fingolfin's house were dark-haired - and the population of Gondolin was not solely made up of Noldor from Fingolfin's house, there was also a significant population of Sindar. It later years when the kindoms of Beleriand began to fall, many Elves sought refuge in the Hidden Kingdom. It's quite possible that Glorfindel was one of these; seeking refuge there after the Dagor Bragollach, when the Northern Kingdoms of the Sons of Finarfin were destroyed.

    Again these are just ideas... but it seems to me unlikely that Glorfindel was of the house of Fingolfin.
  4. Cian

    Cian sylvan madman

    In one of the Glorfindel essays Tolkien penned that while Glorfindel left Valinor in the host of Turgon, and so incurred the ban, he did so reluctantly because of "kinship" with Turgon and allegiance to him.

    Don't know if that helped though~
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2002
  5. Turgon

    Turgon Ghost-King of Gondolin

    But Turgon's wife, Elenwe, was of the Vanyar herself (in some versions of the tale) so it's quite possible that Idril had inherited her golden-hair from her mother. Your post suggests to me, Cian, that Glorfindel was related to Turgon through Elenwe...?!? Do you think this a possibility?
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2002
  6. Cian

    Cian sylvan madman

    I had edited that out (Idril's hair) before I saw your message because the main thrust was intended to be the "kinship" part in any event :)

    Oh, and I added the wording from the essay. Sorry 'bout the confusion but I edited as quick as I might :D
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2002
  7. Turgon

    Turgon Ghost-King of Gondolin

    With regard to the refugees Smeagol. Many searched for the protection Gondolin had to offer - Arminas and Gelmir spring immediately to mind - and I'm sure many of them found it. Why else would Turgon make a law that any who found the Hidden city would have to remain there?

    As for Glorfindel - for me there is no doubt the the two of them are indeed the same person. But that as you say is a subject much debated!!!

    But the question has now moved on. How was Glorfindel related to Turgon, if he was a kinsman, then was he somehow related to Elenwe, Turgon's wife?
  8. mr underhill

    mr underhill My Birthday 3rd of Dec

    hey yo im just a nosey n00b but i beg you to stay online as im all on my own.. boo hoo..
  9. mr underhill

    mr underhill My Birthday 3rd of Dec

    maybe there was a secret staircase from rivendell to gondolin!!!
  10. mr underhill

    mr underhill My Birthday 3rd of Dec

    that was a joke......a sort of sarcastic one......

    anyway i think the elves knew a lot more than they were letting on...
  11. Turgon

    Turgon Ghost-King of Gondolin

    Alas Mr Underhill - Gondolin disappeared beneath the waves many ages ago!
  12. mr underhill

    mr underhill My Birthday 3rd of Dec

    yeah i know.. i sorta skimmed the whole book!!!
  13. mr underhill

    mr underhill My Birthday 3rd of Dec

    i was there last week.... those elves are real party animals...
  14. Ithrynluin

    Ithrynluin seeker of solace Staff Member

    Perhaps Glorfindel was a kinsman of Turgon's wife(being of the Vanyar and thus having golden hair).I think it's very likely.
    Also,I believe the 2 Glorfindels to be the same person.
  15. Melian Le Fay

    Melian Le Fay Lover of night

    I don;t really remember that chapter from LOTR when Glorfindel helps Aragorn and Hobbits, and saves them from the Nazgul, but I remember that there was something special about Glorfindel; that the Nazgul could see him, because he sort of existed in both worlds...My guess is that he expirienced death, and was in Mandos...and he's back among the "living" of Middle Earth, so supposedly he exists in both worlds : the world of the living and the world of those whose souls were taken from this life... ( like the Nazgul, they didn't really "exist" among the living of Middle Earth )...hmmm....maybe I didn't expalin it very well, so if any of you should have any problems understanding me, please let me know!!!!!
  16. Melian Le Fay

    Melian Le Fay Lover of night

    about the colour of the hair

    I was told that not only the Vanyar were fair-haired, but also were Elwe and Cirdan ( they had either "golden or silver hair" )...and some of the silvan Elves, and that Celeborn, Thranduil and Legolas were related to Elwe, so supposedly they had fair hair too....
    So much about the theory that only the Vanyar and their offsprings were
  17. ¤-Elessar-¤

    ¤-Elessar-¤ Telcontar II

    I believe Millena hit on this fact, but here it goes anyway

    The first quote said that one line of the Noldorian princes had golden hair. Was Glorfindel specifically of Noldorian Lineage?
  18. Rúmil

    Rúmil THE Loremaster.

    Nobody knows. In the Sil insex he is just "an Elf of Gondolin". There are many long threads about whether he is the same as the one from the Ford in Lotr, but my answer is no.
  19. Turgon

    Turgon Ghost-King of Gondolin

    Specifically Noldorin? No. But neither could he be of Sindar or Silvan lineage, coming as he did to Middle Earth from Valinor in Turgon's host. He could possibly be of Teleri descent, but I think that is unlikely. My own revised opinion is this: Glorfindel was of the Vanyar. I've based this on Cian's quote that Glorfindel was a kinsman of Turgon... of Turgon but not of Fingolfin? So a kinsman how? Through Elenwe of the Vanyar, Turgon's wife? It seems the most likely answer.
  20. Tar-Elenion

    Tar-Elenion Registered User

    JRRt specifically says Glorfindel is a Noldo. I have theorized that he might be descended from Fingolfin's sister who accompanied Fingolfin into exile.

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