Guild of Religion Announcement

Discussion in 'C9 : Announcements & Updates' started by Wonko The Sane, Sep 7, 2003.

  1. Wonko The Sane

    Wonko The Sane Aredhel Ar-Feiniel

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    This announcement has already been made here in the religion forum, but I'm posting a duplicate here for better visibility.
    Here is our announcement:

    "The decisions is here!

    I know Elbe was supposed to post this but she's been really busy lately and she has just so much going on that I decided to give her a break and post it for her.

    Our decision for the Guild of Religion has been made.

    Our answer is: "Yes. With lots of conditions."

    It is our hope that you will discuss topics relating to Tolkien and his works in the context of Religion, but we also realise that other topics of general religious discussion will take place. We will not limit you in the topics you can make, but we'd like to encourage religious discussions relating to Tolkien as well as those unrelated. Please keep in mind that religious topics can tend to get out of hand and escalate to hurtful arguments more easily than others, but will not forbid it unless there seems to be a problem arising because of it.

    "the Guild would discuss philosophical, religious, moral and ethical matters within the context of Tolkien's works and the man himself"~Mrs. Maggot

    While the above quote is not limiting, it is a strong suggestion. :) We hope you'll remember Tolkien's work in your discussions!

    Here are the following conditions for the guild:

    • You must submit to constant monitoring, and you must realise that final decision on what can or cannot be said lies with the mods and WM
    • There will be NO bashing of other people's religions, of other people, or of groups of people.
    • This forum must NOT be used as a means of trying to force your religious beliefs on others
    • There will be an initial trial period, to make sure that it doesn't degrade into nasty arguments
    • You must remain mature and understand that disagreement with your opinions is not necessarily an attack on your person
    • This is not a free-for-all of religious discussion, you must remain level-headed and respect other people's opinions.
    • Guild members must be aware of their obligation to one another and to the forum as a whole regarding the extra care that they must take to be conciliatory and respectful given the very delicate nature of their subject. originally penned by Mrs. M
    • Nothing posted should either be intended to "proselytize" or be taken as an effort to do so. The "Great Commission" of Christianity as well as that of other faiths regarding leading people to become members thereof has no place on this forum except as might occur quite apart from any effort by the poster but as the result of his or her attitude and knowledge. In other words, if someone's discourse and demeanor is such that it causes others to wish to be "like" that person and perhaps to experience that person's faith, that is fine. But attempts to directly entice, browbeat or otherwise cause people to join one's own religion (or, conversely, could be considered a "put down" of another's faith) should be considered a definite "no no" and not be tolerated. originally penned by Mrs. M
    • Any statements that declare that one's particular faith is "The Truth" have no place in this sort of discourse. As a Christian, I believe that about Christianity, but such statements have no place in scholastic debate since they cannot be proven being only my particular belief and that of others of my faith. We are not dealing with math here where the answer is irrefutable. Therefore declarations of omniescience (unless we are declaring that such was the intention of the author of a quoted source in which case we are commenting upon something rather than positing it ourselves) are simply without merit under the circumstances.originally penned by Mrs. M
    • Nothing posted should be intended to be nor should it be taken as an "insult" to another person or his/her beliefs. That means that quotes from relevant sources pertaining to Tolkien which are "Christian" or otherwise should not be considered as insulting to someone who has a different perspective on the matter. Discourse and discussion are an attempt to look at all areas and positions of a particular question and as long as such debates are carried on in a civil and scholarly way, no one should feel "insulted". Our present "politically correct" culture makes it almost impossible to engage in true debate because someone might take a purely academic point and personalize it. For example, it is no longer possible to use the word "niggardly" in public speech because it may "offend" some people who mistake it for something else! If we are going to be that "touchy", then this Guild should never see the light of day. However, I cannot believe that - given the intellectual level I have encountered on the forum - we cannot have vigorous and substantial debate without descending into this sort of nonsense.originally penned by Mrs. M
    • No poster should make flippant comments, even in "fun". We have seen where such "fun" leads to in the past. This is especially true on a site of this kind. You wouldn't juggle nitroglycerine, so why on earth would you post something that runs the risk of being misunderstood and creating a problem?originally penned by Mrs. M
    • The Guild will be closely (and I mean CLOSELY) monitored to be sure that some small incident doesn't escalate. originally penned by Mrs. M

    Failure to adhere to these rules will result in warning PMs, possible warning points, and in extreme cases, closing of the guild.

    I trust that you all can act in a mature and responsible way, and realise why this is such a difficult subject, and how problems with this guild could form quite easily.

    Thank you.


    *Note* This list is subject to change if any of the C9 feel I've forgotten anything, and mods feel free to add or edit this in any way."
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2003
  2. Confusticated

    Confusticated Registered User

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    Can someone clear something up...

    Reading through the thread that was started in the suggestion box where discussion about a Religion Guild/area (/whatever) had been discussed at some length among the members, it seems to me that the primary and best reasons put forth in favour of such a religion area was that it would serve as a place to keep all religion topics neatly together in one place.

    Perhaps I miss something but it seems to be that the reasons for this area are at odds (in that they do not support) the purpose which you have given it. It makes one wonder, what then does?

    Consider:

    Annals of Eldanyare, and the new forum all about JRRT himself, would seem to me to be the best places for religion as it related to Tolkien, and of course this is something that can come up in other forums too, such as the LotR forum.

    I just see no need for an entire forum to discuss religion and Tolkien - Annals of Eldanyare or (depending upon the nature of the discussion) the new JRRT forum seems the perfect places for this. Does it not?
     

  3. Ithrynluin

    Ithrynluin seeker of solace Staff Member

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    This makes no sense. Why should there be a religion guild that only discusses religous and philosophical issues within the confines of Tolkien's works only? We have a forum called 'The Annals of the Eldanyare' for those purposes. People who wanted a religion guild did not intend for it to be a restricted one like the announcement says. I don't think that Tolkien related topics should be even a small part of this guild. Threads discussing religion exist and will continue to exist - they will only be scattered around in places such as Stuff and Bother and the Guild of Politics. What good is the guild then?

    I urge the C9 to reconsider this ASAP.
     
  4. Aulë

    Aulë The Larrikin

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    We aren't not allowing non-Tolkien religious discussion.
    We are just hoping that some Tolkien-related material will be included in the Guild.

    I think Wonks mis-interpreted something whilst putting that post together. It was my understanding in the decision-making that non-Tolkien topics would be allowed in the Guild.
     

  5. Confusticated

    Confusticated Registered User

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    So there will be a Religion Area that happens to allow religion as it relates to Tolkien or his mythology, and Wonko's post is mistaken in major points? Is that a correct and complete statement?

    So what is the Guild first: Tolkien and religion, and then just religion, or is it first Religion and Tolkien and religion second?

    It looks like C9 isn't sure what the purpose is to be...
     
  6. Aulë

    Aulë The Larrikin

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    It is just religion, with the distant hope that some Tolkien will be in there somewhere.

    Wonks was away during most of the decision-making. She most likely mis-read a few things.
     
  7. Ithrynluin

    Ithrynluin seeker of solace Staff Member

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    Well, I still think that the religion guild should be for non-Tolkien discussions only. If we include Tolkien-related discussions in it, the other two forums serving this purpose will become more inactive (and they're not bursting with activity as it is, but there are interesting topics popping up now and then). Of course, if something related to Tolkien comes up in the middle of a philosophical or religious discussion that is perfectly acceptable. I just wouldn't want to see Tolkien-related topics started in this guild, but in areas designated for these purposes.
     
  8. Thorin

    Thorin LOTR Purist to the end

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    I agree with above comments. I don't believe that the majority of people on this forum who wanted a Religion Guild wanted it restricted to only Tolkien. As before mentioned, these Tolkien related discussions have already been established in other rooms. Besides, what could you really discuss that hasn't been discussed already over and over? (i.e. Tolkien's creation, the nature of elves and men, the heirarchy of the Valar....(booooring, been there, done that.....)

    I still believe that it needs to be closely monitered and most of the rules of conduct still apply. But I agree. The C9 needs to rethink this and represent the members on this forum.
     
  9. Idril

    Idril "Sparkling Brilliance"

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    Re: Can someone clear something up...

    I have to agree with Nom and the others, the guild of religion was meant to be a place where all religious topics (non Tolkien) would reside (as opposed to being scattered higgledy, piggledy all over the forum). What is the point of have an entire Guild solely for the discussion of religion in relation to Tolkien and his works.

    Perhaps it would be wise in the future, that announcements (the actual wording) of any kind by C9 be approved by at least 1 other member. That way, any mis-interpretations would be cleared up before it hits the forum and avoid possible embarrassment.
     
  10. Wonko The Sane

    Wonko The Sane Aredhel Ar-Feiniel

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    My post was unclear.

    The guild will not be restricting users to only post about Tolkien, but it is encouraged as those topics tend to get out of hand less often than regular religious debates.
    In eagerness to stress something that I (and the other TTF members in the C9) felt was important to helping further peace in this guild I went a bit too far in the phrasing.
    I've changed it to reflect the true intentions.

    Aulë, you are mistaken in thinking that I mis-read, though I was gone for a while I monitored the C9 thread and read everything that was posted, and I reread it again before posting this announcement. An overwhelming number of C9 members expressed concern at having a guild that was going to be a religious "free-for-all" and it was their intent that Tolkien related discussions be strongly encouraged to avoid conflict.
    I was merely trying to reflect that in my post which, as I said, has been changed.

    And, Idril, Aulë approved my post at the time of its posting.

    So to clarify: The new guild is NOT restricted to only Tolkien topics. It is for ALL religious discussion. But Tolkien topics are encouraged.
     
  11. Ancalagon

    Ancalagon Quality, not Quantity!

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    Then why not lump religion in with politics, then you can keep all the most devisive questions in one foul-smelling place on the forum:)

    The Guild of Religon and Politics ( which could be commonly termed 'The Moral Basement') should be joined together, with Tolkien kept well clear and discussions relating to him kept in the areas they currently reside.
     
  12. Talierin

    Talierin Still here... sometimes

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    I agree with Anc here. For one thing, it'd keep the list of forums shorter, and another, I really don't see the problem with having religious topics in there... nobody's complained, and it's been working just fine, the GoP being well monitored by us mods.
     
  13. Wonko The Sane

    Wonko The Sane Aredhel Ar-Feiniel

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    We discussed that in the C9 thread, and while it was considered as an option, enough TTF members & C9 members voted for a separate religion guild to justify the creation of a separate entity.
     
  14. Ancalagon

    Ancalagon Quality, not Quantity!

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    Well, if that is the case, Tolkien should be kept out of it and remain in the hallowed places where his life and words are currently discussed exclusively, not lumped in with general discussions on religion.
     
  15. YayGollum

    YayGollum Conscience of TTF

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    I suggested a place called ---> The Illustrious Guild Of Controversial Type Subjects to put those kind of things in, but noone paid attention to me. oh well. :rolleyes: Is this thing that much of a huge deal that you have to pick it apart so much? I've noticed religion type threads. I see nothing wrong with tossing them in one place. The type of religion related threads that you people want to toss into the section depends on whatever you decide. If you say ---> "Oh, this has all kinds of things to do with Tolkien!", toss it in that Annals section you mentioned. Whatever you decide. Things could get moved from one place to another if the discussion swerves a little. Is it not possible to be content and flexible and things? I'm just curious.
     
  16. Ancalagon

    Ancalagon Quality, not Quantity!

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    Basically, if you are going to create a fora exclusively religious in content, then I would ask...nay plead that Professor Tolkien is kept out of it and that discussion relating to him remains in Annals or his own personal fora. He is not included in debates on Politics, neither should he be included in debates regarding general religious discussion. The forum is dedicated to him first and foremost, so his place should be exclusive in discussion, above all else.

    Personally, I think there are some valid reasons for making a Religion fora, though I feel strongly that is could be inclusive with Politics...your title is not so far from what I had considered Yay.

    PS. 20 points Yay, you are well on your way to becoming immortal:)
     
  17. Wonko The Sane

    Wonko The Sane Aredhel Ar-Feiniel

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    I think that while the threads currently in existence should remain with the Annals, if people in the new guild want to discuss Tolkien within their guild it should remain in that guild space.

    And yes, Yay, I know what you suggested. and I agree. :)

    Anyway, we'll see how this goes. There will be a trial period and if many of the issues we've seen brought up end up being major ones appropriate action will be taken. :)
     
  18. YayGollum

    YayGollum Conscience of TTF

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    *quietly fumes about evil twenty points, but wouldn't want to look like he disagreed with any powers that be type decisions and keeps quiet* :rolleyes: oh well. Anyways, Yay for my post getting any acknowledgement at all, but how's about somebody show up and answer the questions in it? It's just a little clarification type curiosity. Should I ask the questions again?
     
  19. Confusticated

    Confusticated Registered User

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    I think it's a pretty big deal. I did some arguing in the past about why I see no need for a religion guild, and even how I thought such a place would lead to eventual increase in non-Tolkien discussion, which would make the focus on Tolkien at TTF less than it is now, and I also thought this was a trend that could continue. Just a move in the wrong direction. Of course if this is the minority opinion what does it matter?

    My stuff in this here thread today was not against a religion guild as that decision has already been made, and all I could do anyhow is restate what I have said elsewhere. It was to figure out what sense there was in making a Guild for discussions about religion relating to Tolkien or his books, or rather to point there was no sense in it! So the C9 people have cleared things up a little.

    I hope people do not start Tolkien threads in it, but maybe they will.

    As I see it, it seems Tolkien discussion is being encouraged in this Religion Guild in attempt to be sure Tolkien remains a big part of TTF. This is reasoning I do not agree with. It seems to me that the motive here is not best fulfilled in the actions that are taken. It seems to me this owuld be best fulfilled if a whole new non-Tolkien section were not even opened up.

    Heck, sometimes I think why not just toss politics into S&B and watch that place closer? I'm sure it would not be difficult to know which threads contain heated discussions. If the topic is 'Bush is a fool' or 'Prayer in public schools', well that's a tip off. Besides, I think S&B is well watched as is!

    A major point I made in the Entmoot thread about this subject is that sticking something on the main page is an advertisement of the service provided and invitation to explore that subject. So the more non-Tolkien areas there are, the more non-Tolkien discussion there will be. Or maybe I am wrong about that.

    Take for example general fantasy forums, some include Tolkien of course! And people like me might register there just for Tolkien. Well word gets around that TTF has a full section for religion and...

    Well I suppose is it possible. But consider what things are like in places where people do not question the usefulness of actions taken by a select few who run a place. This involves looking at what is desired and what action is taken to reach that goal. If it seems the wrong/not most efficient actions are taken, then why not bring this to light?

    I'm sure this stuff may be a pain in the neck to the leadership, but ah well that's what they get wanting power... oops I mean for being leaders :p

    Plainly a lot of people do want a Religion Guild, maybe I just have a hard time understanding why. I know I would not want to see a section for any of my non-Tolkien interests, but I guess interests and religious faith are two different things. I try to be understanding of others but this is one I do not get.
     
  20. Idril

    Idril "Sparkling Brilliance"

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    I agree with Anc. How much religion are we expecting to be discussed on TTF to justify a Guild on it's own? Politics is different as it's constantly changing and affecting most of us in the change. Religion is fairly constant - how much is there left to discuss (if you want to learn about another faith - read a book on it).

    I loved your 'title' Yay - I give you another 20 points:D

    Another suggestion for C9 - perhaps next time C9 make a final decision on an issue, they could run it by the forum members first before it becomes 'law'.