Help with translation please!

Discussion in 'The Languages of Middle-earth' started by Cara, Jul 19, 2017.

  1. Cara

    Cara New Member

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    I want to translate two words into Elvish but I do not trust some of the websites' suggestions I've seen. I am a huge Tolkien fan but I am not very versed in reading/interpreting his languages. The two words are:

    Beloved
    Hope

    Any info you have is very much appreciated!

    Also, "dear one"

    Thanks!
     
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  2. CirdanLinweilin

    CirdanLinweilin The Wandering Wastrel

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    estel is Sindarin for "Hope" or "Trust", it was a name for Aragorn, so that's one of your words.

    CL

    Also:

    https://www.elfdict.com/w/melda Here's both the Sindarin and Quenya for "Beloved" or "Dear"

    https://www.elfdict.com/w/one - Unfortunately, "dear one" isn't its own phrase in Elvish, but you could combine either the Sindarin or Quenya for "Dear" with the Sindarin or Quenya for "one".

    Hope this helps!
     
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  3. Cara

    Cara New Member

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    Thank you very much! I appreciate you taking the time. In order I get the actual script version of the language, is it a letter for letter translation? So, estel would be written out as the symbol for E followed by the symbol for S, and so on?
     
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  4. CirdanLinweilin

    CirdanLinweilin The Wandering Wastrel

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    No problem, here's some information for Estel: https://www.elfdict.com/w/estel

    This is information for both Sindarin and Quenya.

    Hope it helps!

    (I am not so well versed in Elvish as much as I'd love to, but I'll try to help where I can!)

    CL
     

  5. Galin

    Galin Registered User

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    I don't think you need to translate "one"... but anyway, if going with Quenya melda you could give it m. or f. gender if you want: m. meldo f. melde

    As for estel, you could write the word a number of ways, depending on which mode you choose, or if you are considering the word to be Quenya or Sindarin, since it's both.

    Here's just one way to write it (click link below), here in a Sindarin context, in a mode employing vowel diacritics.

    http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/movie_otherinscr.htm#gilraen
     
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  6. Cara

    Cara New Member

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    Thank you! I am still having trouble figuring out how to write it out (Tengwar?). I may go look at some books. But knowing what the actual words are is great!
     
  7. CirdanLinweilin

    CirdanLinweilin The Wandering Wastrel

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    https://www.tecendil.com -This is a Tengwar transcriber. If you use English, the English is transcribed to Tengwar, you could do the same with Elvish, just pick the appropriate options.

    Galu! ("Good Luck!")

    CL
     
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  8. Cara

    Cara New Member

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    That is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks again!
     
  9. Galin

    Galin Registered User

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    I agree with this transcriber regarding estel (in a mode that employs tehtar anyway) -- it's the same as in my linked example of Sindarin, except the s-tengwa in inverted by comparison.

    Regarding Quenya melda, for myself I would prefer to put the vowels over the preceding consonant here, as generally reported in Tolkien's appendix on writing too...

    ... that way, for this word at least, you don't need a carrier for final a.

    Although that said, if you consider estel in a Quenya context and you employ the same idea, you'll need a carrier for the initial vowel.
     
  10. Cara

    Cara New Member

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    Ok. So here is a picture. I'm getting a tattoo that I have been thinking of for about ten years. My preference is to have "Hope, Beloved" or "Hope, Dear One". (My name literally means beloved or dear one...that's where the "one" comes from). Based on that translator, this is what I came up with. But please tell me if there's something wrong here regarding your last comment on the carrier for the vowel.
     
  11. Galin

    Galin Registered User

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    I wouldn't say final a above a short carrier here is wrong, it's just that in Appendix E, Tolkien explained:

    "In languages such as Quenya, in which most words ended with a vowel, the tehta was placed above the preceding consonant; in those such as Sindarin, in which most words ended in a consonant, it was placed above the following consonant." The Return of the King, Appendix E

    That said, in other sources (like a letter or a posthumously published source), it seems like this was more of a custom than a rule -- but still, for myself I would go with this (author published in any case). If you do, then Quenya melda needs no final carrier, as the a-tehta goes above the -ld- tengwa, while the e-tehta goes above the m tengwa.

    In my opinion I think the example should be either all Quenya or all Sindarin. And since estel happens to be both, and melda is Quenya, then I would treat the whole thing as Quenya as well as keep the vowel placement consistent -- which would mean you would have a short carrier for the initial e in estel, with the second e going above the preceding consonant.

    In other words, you then have an all Quenya example where all vowels go above any preceding tengwar, and with respect to initial e in estel, obviously there is no preceding tengwa available here.

    Also, there is more than one way to depict the vowel a, even including not including it :D

    "In Quenya in which a was very frequent, its vowel sign was often omitted altogether. Thus for calma "lamp" clm could be written. This would naturally read as calma, since cl..." Appendix E

    Of course in Tolkien's example the only vowel is a, but I assume (!) this stands for other words as well, as long as no confusion exists (estel meld would be read as estel melda, I would think, since -ld- is not normally found ending Quenya words).

    Anyway, just my opinions. And if you consider the whole thing Quenya but still prefer the vowel above the following consonant (which is the way Sindarin estel appears in the link I gave above), you could use a short carrier for the final a in melda, or again in my opinion, just leave final a out.

    I'm no expert, I just dabble a bit, and I hope I haven't steered you astray anywhere.

    And Ales Bican has translated your name on his website elm, for his Quenya Babybook. Ales writes:

    http://www.elvish.org/elm/names/c.html

    So he employs a feminine ending for a name. I'm not saying you have to as well, but in any case it looks like his translation of Cara matches yours well enough, and his Quenya choice too.

    Ales knows tons more about Tolkien's languages than I do, so melda/melde seems a good choice.

    And just wanted to add, while I understand where the "one" comes from, what I'm burbling about is, I don't think there's a need to be so word-for-word here. If you are beloved, you are a beloved one, if you are dear, you are a dear one... but in a translation/transcription such as this, actually adding "one" [after going to the trouble of finding the correct Elvish word meaning "one" in the same sense to mirror the English sense] seems superfluous to me.

    Just like this longish beast of a post seems superfluous to others, no doubt :D
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2017

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