How did elves become orcs?

Discussion in 'The Hall of Fire' started by Anarchist, Mar 18, 2002.

  1. Anarchist

    Anarchist The Eternal Champion

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    I was always wondering how Morgoth transform elves to totally a different race; orcs. What exactly he did to create those barbaric and tough characters out of some noble and kind (at least most of them) characters.
     
  2. jks13

    jks13 Registered User

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    The orcs where tortured elves
     

  3. A Ranger

    A Ranger Registered User

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    the power of evil
     
  4. Meliaiel

    Meliaiel Registered User

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    Quote:
    'Yet it is held true by the wise of Eressèa,that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor,ere Utumno was broken,were put there in prison,and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved;and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves,of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes.'
    ('The Silmarillion',Chapter 3)
    also somewhere in 'The Silmarillion' was told that if anyone-no matter elf or edain-looked into Melkor's eyes his mind would be broken and poisoned by dispair and madness.
     

  5. Eonwe

    Eonwe Upper Class Twit

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    yes, AND they smoked, drank and did drugs, and swore a lot. At least that's how I tell my kids they got that way :D
     
  6. ssgrif

    ssgrif Sheppard of the forest

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    Ok so if Orcs are basically tortured Elves, Elves that have looked into Melkors eyes and turned into an evil mad Orc, how come they dont even look the same, as a species?

    Surely Orcs should look like Elves, just evil, unless their genetics where changed somehow?

    Are we to believe that over the hundreds of years since the first tortured elves, they evolved into these hideous creatures? Would this mean that the first Orcs were just like Elves in there appearances?

    Any ideas?
     
  7. Kit Baggins

    Kit Baggins Thain Kit I

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    Do we actually know what Orcs look like? (apart from the movie!)

    ~Kit :p
     
  8. Anarchist

    Anarchist The Eternal Champion

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    I can't recall any quotes from the book but I am certain I read in a lot of places that orcs are black and ugly. It is indeed strange how elves that were so beautiful became black (no rasism here) and ugly and indeed much stronger than elves themselves. Did Morgoth put some magic on them? Did he use music to make them that way? This is possible since the world was created with music. Anyone recalls any quotes about this?
     
  9. Meliaiel

    Meliaiel Registered User

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    i don't know if Morgoth used any magics breeding the race of Orcs(though i guess it's possible) or music(Morgoth and music?...hmmmm),but if elves were tortured,that means some physical damage was done to them,and it might have changed their appearance.also they probably lived in terrible conditions,that might be a reason,too;finally,Morgoth's dwelling place was always dark and maybe because of the lack of light orcs were black?then,poisonous air and water and food...i don't know,i'm just guessing.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2002
  10. ssgrif

    ssgrif Sheppard of the forest

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    The idea of the lack of light, poor food and water hygiene, poisonous fumes etc seems a viable one to change the appearance of the Orcs, but this would only happen over a long period of time, so surely this suggests that the first Orcs still had the appearance of Elves?
     
  11. JeffF.

    JeffF. Registered User

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    JRRT must have intended them not to look so much different

    When orcs first appeared (as stated in the Simarilion) they were mistaken for Quendi who had 'gone wild.' In LOTR when Eomer and his eored pass Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli he initially mistakes them for orcs from very close range. Later Frodo and Sam passed themselves off as orcs in Mordor. The orc leader is close enough to whip them. Despite wearing orc armor, helms and cloaks any radical difference in physical features should still have been apparent. Apparently JRRT intended that they shared physical characteristics with men, hobbits and elves .
     
  12. Anarchist

    Anarchist The Eternal Champion

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    Very interesting opinions. Meliaiel Morgoth was using music when he was created by Eru and was called Melkor. Maybe the music he was using was evil I don't know. How about some other orclike species like trolls. How did trolls like the big one in Moria (ok it was a bit too big in the movie) become like that? Maybe further magic was ised there. I can't anyhow imagine orcs looking like elves. That's a bit wierd.
     
  13. Meliaiel

    Meliaiel Registered User

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    ...i know Melkor took part in the choir of the Ainur in he very beginning;but that was he who tried to make different music,he who made disharmony;and as it was said instead of creating and cherishing he wanted to rule.so probably...i'm not sure if his music was 'evil',thought it might be so;but it lead to disharmony indeed.now the question is-could he still make music in Arda?...somehow i doubt...but maybe.
    ..and orcs looking like Elves-i agree that's weird.but,on the other hand,when they became orcs(whatever the reason was-Melkor's cruelty or magics or else),they were not Elves anymore...
    another weird thing-how Morgoth made them to hate Elves?...logically,they had to hate Morgoth,as he captured and tortured them;but orcs were his faithful servants and held Elves their enemies.hence probably Morgoth's power was so terrible that he could change Elves beyond recognition.if they even forgot their own kin and became it's enemies!what to talk about the appearance then.
    now trolls...i've got no idea how they were made.but i guess here magic was used indeed,as well as in breeding dragons and balrogs,at least i think so.
     
  14. Cian

    Cian sylvan madman

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    That's just a general description of course.
    Tolkien seemingly was still working on the ultimate 'stock' for Orcs though ... he even noted once, on a typescript of Annals of Aman against the account of the origin of the Orcs: "Alter this. Orcs are not Elvish" ... but see the "Orc-essays" published in "Morgoths Ring" for further details. One of which begins:

    Orcs
    "Their nature and origin require more thought. They are not easy to work into the theory and system." ...
     
  15. UngattTrunn475

    UngattTrunn475 O Fierce Wildcat

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    Balrogs weren't breeded, they were Maiar corrupted by Melkor.
     
  16. Meliaiel

    Meliaiel Registered User

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    ...owch my mistake...:)
     
  17. Tarien

    Tarien Patron of Oboists

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    And what, I wonder were dragons mockeries of? Not balrogs; they were in hi service. And Melkor did not have the power to create thinking, willed beasts seperate from his own will. So is it possible dragons existed from the beginning, children of Illuvitar? Evil to balance good, or something like that?
     
  18. Istar

    Istar Out like a light

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    According to The Silmarillion Chapter 7, when Melkor tries to con Fëanor out of the Silmarils, Fëanor is no where near broken or in despair. "And he shut the doors of his house in the face of the mightiest of all the dwellers in Eä.
    Then Melkor departed in shame..."
    It appears that Fëanor has this power over Melkor!

    Anyway, I believe that orcs were created from Elves that were corrupted by evil. When they were first created, they might have still looked like (disfigured) Elves, but years of inbreeding and the taint of evil changed them into the hideous shapes they have in the Third Age.
     
  19. Hanne

    Hanne Registered User

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    Even if they would become mad ,they can't just become black,ugly and evil?
     
  20. Rangerdave

    Rangerdave He's Back!

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    Orc making

    Take one elf (fresh, not frozen)
    mix in equal parts of Disco, Spam, MacDonalds Secret Sauce and 2 Quinten Tarentino films.

    let sit in cold damp area for 25 years
    add ugly shoes and Mullet hair cut

    add jalapino peppers to taste

    and viola`
    instant ready to use orc

    serves one.

    best if used in large groups

    RD