Master of Fate?

Discussion in '"The Children of Húrin"' started by Úlairi, Mar 14, 2009.

  1. Úlairi

    Úlairi Crying in the Wilderness

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    Melkor, mightiest of the dwellers of Arda, was afraid that Túrin the "Master of Fate" would transcend the curse that he had so meticulously attended to through the power of his agent Glaurung. How is it then possible that Túrin could grow so great so as to overcome the fate designed for him? The limits of the power of Morgoth were virtually unbounded. What could a mere man do against such potency?

    Cheers,

    Úlairi.
     
  2. Durin's Bane

    Durin's Bane Unreg'd

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    I've been wondering for sometime... Melkor was created as mightiest, yet he created alot of minions, built his dungeon, lost so much power that he could no longer shapeshift, got wounded, etc... Was he, at that point, the most powerful? Were the limits of his power unbounded?
     

  3. Illuin

    Illuin Fire On The Mountain

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    Manwë's might surpassed Melkor's long before that; so he was definitely not "the most powerful".


     
  4. Úlairi

    Úlairi Crying in the Wilderness

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    You've failed to note the essay in Myths Transformed that Melkor's power is the sum of his agents. Once his agents are overcome his potency is drastically diminished...

    But this is extrinsic of the actual topic... *sigh*

    Threads die around here far too quickly...

    Cheers,

    Úlairi.
     

  5. Prince of Cats

    Prince of Cats Among the Trees

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    Humbug! I argue that Illuin did exactly what you said he failed to do and only the pessimism you posted could have power to do what you thought has already been done to this topic!!

    :D just jesting. Illuin's response though was suitable for DB's question which was relevant to the original topic

    As for Turin and Morgoth ... well here's the issue I think: was Melkor's power over Turin's fate somehow magical in nature or only in that Melkor and his minions yielded practical power in middle earth? Could Melkor change the song and fate of the world, at least as it pertained to Turin, or did he just have enough thugs to try to keep him down?
     
  6. YayGollum

    YayGollum Conscience of TTF

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    First of all of the points to be made ---> Sure, Mel had lots of power, but we have no idea how much he employed to fashion his curse, which didn't seem to be the sort that Mel was constantly pouring more power into. Seems as if he tossed a superly cool curse on the guy, snickered a bit, then forgot about it.

    When it looked as if Turin elfbane was overcoming his curse, he said, "Well, dang, yo. I know that I didn't curse him incorrectly, so he must have gotten more powerful." Humans and elves, at the least, have the ability to absorb creepy magical powers via being around things more powerful than themselves, so, since, as far as I know, Ainur can't do that, mayhaps Mel didn't take that into account.

    Also, if (and I have seen no evidence of it) Mel didn't merely slap a curse designed for the version of Turin elfbane that he knew at the time on the guy and was constantly monitoring the thing and getting concerned that some pathetic human would become more powerful than himself, I'll just point out that Mel was a lot freer with his power than other Ainur, those greedy misers, and I don't remember reading about a limit on how much power a human can hold.
     
  7. Gothmog

    Gothmog Lord of Balrogs Staff Member

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    Melkor's power wasn not virtually unbounded but exactly bounded by the Music of the Ainur. Túrin, although certainly not "Master of Fate" had less Power but also less Limits as is shown in The Ainulindale

    So being able, by the will of Eru, to go beyond the Music of the Ainur Túrin or any other Man could transcend a curse of Morgoth which was limited by that same Music.
     
  8. Illuin

    Illuin Fire On The Mountain

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    Basically reiterating the same idea, I would give that a little twist by saying it wasn’t that Túrin or any other man could transcend a curse of Morgoth; but since Morgoth was limited by the Music and Túrin was not, the "unknown factor" would make it difficult for Morgoth to formulate and execute a curse that would be successful all of the time.



    PS - Good to see you Yay ;)
     
  9. Úlairi

    Úlairi Crying in the Wilderness

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    Just looking through this again.

    Gothmog, you've made the assumption that Morgoth's Curse is limited by the Ainulindalë. Can we conclusively make such an assumption as I cannot help but feel that this violates a necessary tenet of free will - to exercise volition unencumbered by restrictions of predetermination. That being said, the other side of the coin (especially in The Legendarium) can also be presented quite cogently and effectively in the sense that Tolkien may have intended Arda to be a world determined by Fate - the Music does appear to provide us with such an example. Morgoth's Curse is indeed successful and is fulfilled. Perhaps this thread can assume a free identity and wander off its initially predetermined path into what power, if any, that the Ainur had over Men. Is Morgoth a true characterization of Satan?

    Requires more thought. Hopefully I can get back to this in a few months. ;)

    Cheers,

    Úlairi.
     
  10. Ermundo

    Ermundo Bam!

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    I think that Morgoth had a degree of control over fate. Compositely being the greatest being in all of Arda, or even being as potent as the Valar, Morgoth can be effectively compared to a natural force, like nature. In fact, the influence he exerts over Arda is probably more than any other force that exists, including the Valar. With that much power, I have a feeling it would not be hard to exert a limited form of influence over the fates of people. Indeed, being the major badass in Arda, by default he shapes the lives and destinies of those elves and men who are in eternal oppisition. But that's just my POV.
     
  11. Gothmog

    Gothmog Lord of Balrogs Staff Member

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    I am making no such assumption. It is clearly stated in the Ainulindalë. Firstly, Melkor exercised complete free will during the Music of the Ainur where the basic structure and limitations of Arda were created. Secondly, you are assuming more "Predetermination" in my post than is actually there. I am only accepting that the Music places Limitations on what can and cannot be done within Arda. Free will is simply the ability to choose without coercion between two or more options. Which options are available will be predetermined by the limitations of Arda just as they are for us in the 'Real World'.

    Once the limits of what could be done in Arda were set by the Music, the only being who could alter any part of them was Ilúvatar. All the Ainur who went down into Arda became bound by those limits. Melkor could do many things, but he could not go beyond these limits in any manner. The only beings able to go beyond the limits of the Music were Men, and this is by the direct will of Eru. What we cannot know from the stories is how far beyond the Music Man can go. It seems obvious that this ability does not make them more powerful than the Valar even though the possibility is given that they could become more powerful than a curse given by a Vala.
     
  12. Aredhel Alatàr

    Aredhel Alatàr Registered User

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    It is said in the Silmarillion that Eru gave Mankind two gifts: Death, that is, not being bound by the limits of Arda ('a gift the First-born would come to envy') and the possibility to shape their own destiny. So yes, it is definitely possible that for a moment Tùrin's choices might have brought him on an altogether different course than Melkor had wanted him to follow. After all, it is by his own pride, persuading the Elves of Nargothrond not to listen to Ulmo's warning, that eventually Tùrin ruined his last chance at a happy and respected life. Without a doubt Morgoth cast in his path as many obstacles as he could conceive, but there are many points in which the right choice might have saved the Man. He was doomed by his own personality and spirit, just as for one moment it seems that his valour might have saved him.

    Also, the Valar know next to nothing themselves about the life, nature and ultimate destiny of Men, so that Melkor, as a Vala, would partake of their same ignorance and thus not be able to fully influence and deform their lives, as he could do with the Eldar.

    Aredhel
     
  13. Ingolmin

    Ingolmin Member

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    Though Melkor was very powerful but his destiny was bound to the Music of the Ainur and all the events of Arda were unfolded according to it. Also, Turin was not the Master of Fates. The true master was Eru Illuvitar himself as he it was who conducted the symphony and was so much powerful so as to alter the changes in it. Secondly, even though the Melkor is said to be the mightiest of all the Ainur, he was still defeated by the Valar because 'United we stand, divided we fall'. Turin was however a mere mortal but the mystery of men was unknown. It is said that he killed Melkor at last in Dagor Dagorath with Gurthang. Melkor was an angelic being and was not subject to death but he was bound to the symphony. The events of the Last Battle, Lord of the Rings and the War of Wrath signified the second part of the symphony of the Iluuvitar which was more beautiful and brought a lot of sadness. It was Eru who governed Arda, Melkor was just a figment of his magnanimous creation. And he could change the role of persons in Arda such as Gollum at last was responsible in destroying the ring when Frodo failed. This is when Illuvitar intervened.
     

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