Merry and Pippin

Discussion in '"The Fellowship of the Ring"' started by Ariana Undomiel, Aug 29, 2002.

  1. Ariana Undomiel

    Ariana Undomiel Hrívëvendë

    I was just thinking about this recently, but did you notice all the little events slipped into the film that made Merry and Pippin appear sooooo loyal to Frodo and so determined to protect him at all costs. The first event was when they were hiding under the bank out of site of the Blackrider. Did you notice what it was that Merry tossed aside as a distraction for the Ringwraith? It was their bag of newly found mushrooms. Mushrooms were almosts as precious as gold to hobbits. Secondly, they, along with Sam, were quite willing to fight an armed ranger in order to protect Frodo. Third, when they were on Weathertop they both jumped infront of Frodo to protect him. Then of course they go along with Frodo on the quest and when they are in Moria and Frodo gets stabbed by the cave troll they both fiercly attack the cave troll with their knives. Finally at the very end of the movie the purposly distract the orcs so that Frodo can escape.

  2. joxy

    joxy Registered User

    Most of those points and scenes were inventions of P Jackson's, and they give a distorted view of the characters of all four hobbits. Tolkien established what those relationships were, and there would have been no problem in presenting them accurately in the film. P&M come over as much too immature, childish to a large extent despite their bravery, and Frodo is far too weak, fearful, lacking in bravery, constantly needing protection. Sam hasn't been given enough to do yet and he is acted well so he comes over the best of the four. I hope he will be presented in more detail, and accurately, in the rest of TLOR. There are exceptions to this of course- when the film sticks to the book! What is the point in changing the characters so much?!
  3. Ariana Undomiel

    Ariana Undomiel Hrívëvendë

    WOW! Now that was harsh. I personally thought that yes, even though Merry and Pippin were given a slightly more childish character, they were very brave and loyal to their friends. PJ just expanded a bit more on their characters to add a little bit of lightheartedness to the film. Also, Frodo wasn't a weakling at all he just had a huge burden on his small shoulders. He was very brave though and he loved his friends dearly! It is true that Sam hasn't been given a lot to do yet, but apparently his character is going to be expanding in the next film.

  4. joxy

    joxy Registered User

    Harsh?:) You should hear me when I get really cross!:) (just kidding)

    The rocket in the tent, the carrot scene, the dialogue in the sword practice, the skeleton down the well, taunting the orcs at Parth Galen, all made them much, not slightly, more childish- they were mature enough to find out about Frodo's plans to leave the Shire and decide go with him before Frodo knew anything about it- that gives an idea of their level of (non-)childishness. But about their bravery, I said myself that yes, they have it in the film, despite the clownishness. The film IS good, in (most) parts! There is plenty of light-heartedness in the books- why not use that instead of inventing slapstick that doesn't fit?
    When Frodo was carried to the Ford like a sack of potatoes, instead of riding alone and defying the Nazgul, and then shown almost lifeless, he was deliberately MADE to be a weakling! When he cowered in a corner in Moria instead of stabbing the troll, while all the others attacked the troll, he didn't look too brave to me. Of course he is brave, of course he is fond of the others (loved dearly is a bit too strong, I think), but that only comes across when the film sticks to the book- which it does most of the time.
  5. Anamatar IV

    Anamatar IV Anabadger

    he did stab the cave troll. And if there was a big smelly thing right infront of you that wa slike 10 times your size and all you had was a dinky little knife not fit for cutting cheese i bet you'd run.
  6. Ariana Undomiel

    Ariana Undomiel Hrívëvendë

    I do agree that Merry and Pippin are given a much less serious adult like character than that they have in the book. And yes there is a lot of lightheartedness in the book, but we have no idea how difficult it is to make everything work in a film. I personally did not find the Merry Pippin humor at all slap-stick but quite clever.

    Also, I don't think Frodo was a weakling at all. I mean, in the books, he is getting sicker and sicker as they approach Rivendell, but then all of a sudden he has the ability to defy the ringwraiths. That might have really confused people watching the movie. I don't know for sure though. But I certainly don't think that Frodo was a weakling at all. He was very sorrowful with his heavy burden and his wound.

  7. joxy

    joxy Registered User

    Did he? I didn't see him, but then why didn't it retreat?
    The others don't run, it's just Frodo who cowers, and Frodo's sword is no cheese-knife!
  8. Ariana Undomiel

    Ariana Undomiel Hrívëvendë

    Um, all the other members of the fellowship were attacking the cave troll except for the hobbits. Who can blame them? Merry and Pippin only attacked it when it knocked Aragorn out and stabbed Frodo, but that was because they were no longer defending themselves they were boiling mad. And it's true Frodo's knife was no cheese slicer but it would have had very little effect on that cave troll.

  9. Beregond

    Beregond Registered User

    I'm worried about how Merry and Pippin will be portrayed in the next film, they were far too immature in FOTR. Billy Boyd should have been told change his accent as well (I know it was PJ's idea not to) - as welcome as it was on first watching to hear a Scottish accent on the big screen, it was out of place. If the hobbits are from the same part of the world they should have the same accents, roughly. Merry, Pippin and Frodo were from the more afluent end of the shire and should have all had the accent given to Frodo, while Sam's Yorkshire-Cornish accent was spot on in depicting the farming country in Hobitton.
  10. Ariana Undomiel

    Ariana Undomiel Hrívëvendë

    I love Pippin's accent!

    I do believe that as the movie goes a long and Merry and Pippin figure out how serious this whole mission, quest, thing is, they will probably grow up a bit, and yet retain their lighthearted humor. Hopefully!

  11. Beregond

    Beregond Registered User

    I HAVE Pippin's accent. It just seemed out of place. Its also a bit insulting that told Billy to use his own accent because it made him appear more suited to their representation of young Peregrin (ie imature, stupid)
  12. joxy

    joxy Registered User

    The point is that the other three hobbits WERE active against the troll-very much so- but Frodo just cowered in the corner. Frodo was "really" the first to attack it, by stabbing it in the foot, but of course he wasnt allowed to do that in the film. What was the point of making him the only weak member of the company in that scene?
    The "knife", which was actually a powerful sword, had enough effect on the troll in the book to make it retreat completely, and not get into the Chamber at all for the others to attack.
  13. joxy

    joxy Registered User

    Hey, someone agrees that M&P are far too childish in the film!
    There is just a hope for them in TTT- as they are carried off by the trolls they are allowed to change their silly facial expressions into expressions of real seriousness- maybe in TTT they will be allowed to act their "real" age.
    Yorkshire-Cornish sounds an unlikely mixture- but I see what you mean and agree that his accent- shall we just call it "country"?- was just right.
    His character is not much developed yet, but it has hardly gone wrong at all in FOTR, so there are even higher hopes for him in TTT.
  14. warrior of ice

    warrior of ice Registered User

    i think they were made childish as to show the change they will have in the next movie.

    what i rally dont understand is how merry and pipin got into the adventure with frodo and sam
    they help them to reach bree but they thought they were going only to there but when stridder comes and tells them that they have to go to rivendel they dont argue and disapear from their homes without saying anything.
    i hope someone can explain me this

    sorry for my english
    i am argentinian
  15. Talimon

    Talimon Registered User

    Why only the next movie? They undergo huge changes in FotR. Pay attention. They are far more mature after Gandalf dies (Pippin in particular, feeling partly guilty for having awakened the orcs), and after Boromir dies the look on thier faces says leagues about thier change. Those are not the same hobbits you saw at the beginning. I think people aren't giving them the credit they deserve.

    By the way, regarding the original post, you forgot to mention the fact that they jump in anger on the cave trolls head when Frodo gets stabbed and supposedly "dies". That in my opinion is one of stronger scenes showing thier devotion to him.
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2002
  16. Pelvidar

    Pelvidar Registered User

    Joxy: "Frodo is far too weak, fearful, lacking in bravery, constantly needing protection"

    The bravery of others was elevated at times, but Frodo was not made to look weak. See my thread on this subject.

    Frodo's bravery and conviction is unquestionable in the movie. And the "protection" the other try to give him is supported by the text (not always in the same places - but the idea of them "protecting" him, and keeping him from harms way at their own cost is there).
  17. joxy

    joxy Registered User

    Your English is fine Warrior, don't worry about it.
    There is a simple explanation:
    A large amount of the book's plot is completely omitted in the film,
    because they claim there isn't time for it, which is quite reasonable,
    though they find time to add some other stuff which is NOT in the book!
    The omitted part tells how P&M found out about Frodo's intentions to leave the shire, determined to go with him and Sam, made a whole lot of arrangements for them all to leave together, and did just that.
    They didn't just come across F&S in a field and go along with them.
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2002
  18. joxy

    joxy Registered User

    As in so many instances that is only partially true.
    Here are two places where it isn't true that F is not made to look weak:
    He isn't allowed to show any character at all at the Ford- he is just carried like a bag of potatoes, and laid on the ground almost dead.
    In Moria he carries out very little of his original action, but cowers in a corner while ALL the others attack the troll which is supposed to be too scary for him to tackle.
  19. Pelvidar

    Pelvidar Registered User

    joxy: "He isn't allowed to show any character at all at the Ford- he is just carried like a bag of potatoes, and laid on the ground almost dead.
    In Moria he carries out very little of his original action, but cowers in a corner while ALL the others attack the troll which is supposed to be too scary for him to tackle."

    You're linking scenes in the book to scenes in the movie and noting how they are different. That's fair. I'll grant you that.

    But the movie, taken on it's own does not show Frodo as weak.

    Yes, he's carried as a sack of potatos. In the movie he is too ill to fight. Someone watching that (seperate from comparing the movie paragraph by paragraph to the book) would not conclude that this makes Frodo weak. The very opposite in fact. His recovery from the wound we find out to be remarkable, and he is made of "tougher stuff" then might be expected from a Hobbit.

    The Cave Troll scene, again, seperate from trying to compare it to the book does not make Frodo look weak... it makes him look scared, surely... but in the greater context of the movie this does not diminish the other grand moments of bravery.
  20. joxy

    joxy Registered User

    Can we have some examples of Frodo's (physical) bravery from the film then please?

    At Rivendell I think it is made pretty clear that his recovery is due to Elrond's skills.

    In Moria he looks weak to me, compared to everyone else in the scene who are all lashing out at the troll!

    PJ said he wanted the film to be as close to the book as possible and that he had read it over and over to make sure it would be. We find in fact that in the film Frodo is too ill to fight at the Ford which he wasn't, and too scared to fight in Moria which he wasn't!

Share This Page