Need help translating into Quenya original alphabet!!

Discussion in 'The Languages of Middle-earth' started by Paula FF, Mar 5, 2016.

  1. Paula FF

    Paula FF New Member

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    Hi!

    Can someone help me? Want to check if the phrase below makes sense, and, if it does, translate into the original alphabet

    illumë varya. illumë estel. illume kóleta

    Thanks!!
     
  2. Galin

    Galin Registered User

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    Hi! If you're still about, here's illume as I would transcribe it.

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/32039090@N02/8352656359/

    I'm no expert, but I would guess that you might want each word after illume to either be a verb in a specific tense, or a noun. And I'm guessing you really want a verb with a timeless sort of sense, like what some call the "aorist" (using the term in a Quenya context here).

    Estel, as far as I know, is a noun in both Quenya and Sindarin, and I don't think a verb form is attested (but see below). Your last word appears to be from a very early source (Qenya Lexicon maybe?). If so, a more updated word (but still not that late) could probably be lifted from Etymologies, extended base BORON- where we have Quenya voronwie "endurance, lasting quality; cf. name Voronwe = ON Bronwega."

    Still, even that's a little old, since we have no "Sindarin" yet but "Noldorin" (ON = Old Noldorin), but it's well after certain other sources, including the Qenya Lexicon anyway. That however, would leave you with two nouns (estel, voronwie) and a verb (varya "protect").

    Some think *estelya might do as a Quenya verb... and some think Quenya *vor- might do as a verb, though for two examples it could be *vora- or *vorya. If you chose the two I emphasized and stick with varya, you would have all verbs... although two extrapolated forms not actually attested by Tolkien (as far as I recall at the moment, at least).

    Moving from that sandy foundation (!) to verb tense: I'm not sure how all agreed upon it is, but some say the Quenya aorist of an "a stem verb" shows no variation, if so you might have some cohesion here if you went with, varya, *estelya, *vorya.

    Also, since I linked to illume you can probably guess that I can't show you how to transcribe whatever you choose -- I mean by simply writing it out here in the thread (I'm not Morelen). And again, even if the above direction passed the expert test, I would call it Neo-quenya -- although I call all Quenya not written by Tolkien himself Neo-quenya! And there might be other words you could use as well, I don't know... but I'm too lazy to go searching...

    ... especially as I've no way of being certain you'll ever actually read this post... or have confidence in it :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2016
    Erestor Arcamen likes this.

  3. Paula FF

    Paula FF New Member

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    Hi Galin! I appreciate you took the time to help me with this. I'm really new in the elfic language and did a very raw translation. Maybe it's better if I write the sentence in english.

    Always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

    My goal os to translate to original quenya and after that transcribe into tengwar. Really need any help I can get with this! It's for a tattoo! :)
     
  4. Galin

    Galin Registered User

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    Translation

    Hi again. It looks like I guessed right that you want a verb. Again I'm no expert, but your English looks to me like it's in the "simple present tense", and with an -s on the end you imply there is a he/she/it involved (any English teachers around to confirm or correct this). In other words...

    "I always protect." or "He/she/it always protects" (and so on) represent what can be called the simple present tense in English. And I've read at least one expert say that for this tense the Quenya "aorist" can be employed, which I already did above: varya, *estelya, *vorya are supposed to represent the aorist forms, as far as I know. So...

    illume varya, illume estelya, illume vorya

    [I think trust and hope can be expressed with estelya, and it seems you agree, as you only had estel (noun) in your first post]

    So, according to my inexpert opinion, that's how I would write this in Quenya (vorya "endure" is the best I can come up with, but to me it seems somewhat close to the meaning you want). And I caution not only my own inexpertness, but also that even the experts don't know everything about Quenya, and there is plenty that has been extrapolated or guessed at, based on existing material. Tolkien changed his mind... a lot, and not even he was fluent in Quenya (to simply the matter greatly). If you look at the films, they contain plenty of Neo-Sindarin and Neo-Quenya, that is, reconstructions invented by a fan. We can't learn to speak Quenya in the same way we can learn to speak French or German, for example.

    And here I'm just letting you know that *estelya and *vorya are guesses, if based on other attested material. Estel is certainly attested by JRRT or course, as a noun and a name however, not as a Quenya verb.

    Transcription


    Anyway, as far as transcribing that into the Elvish letters, if you click on the link in my last post it shows the word illume in two different styles of Elvish writing. I don't know if there are any examples of these particular verbs on the web (any examples I would agree with, that is) but I only write with pen and paper and have no way to show you the full example as I would write it.

    Sorry, I don't have any computer fonts for writing with the Elvish letter forms. That's why I went searching and found "illume" already written by Morelen, and I agree with the way it's written there.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2016

  5. Galin

    Galin Registered User

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    I maybe should add this, if it's for a tattoo (sorry to post twice in a row). You probably know this but you can also write in English using the Elvish writing systems... sort of like I can write German hund and English dog using the Roman Alphabet of course. That's a way to take out any complexities of translation, and the tattoo still looks Elvish anyway, due to the writing obviously. It's up to you in any case, and I still wouldn't be able to show you the English version in Elvish (though I'm guessing "always" in Elvish characters is already somewhere on line).

    In the past I've tried to describe the example by referring someone to the tengwar chart in the back of The Return of the King (the chart gives you the basic letter shapes by number, and then you can get fancy with styles), but too often that became a waste of time, as the person didn't get what I was doing... never responded for some reason (so I didn't know if it was a waste of time or not)... or someone else just put it -- in Elvish writing -- in the thread anyway!

    Anyway, there's that route too. Sorry I can't be more helpful... but good luck! :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2016
  6. Galin

    Galin Registered User

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    At the risk of triple posting... since varya and vorya will be close in spelling, I decided to describe the words by referencing the chart in Appendix E to The Return of the King (writing and spelling). Sorry if you don't have the book, but if you do, the basic letter form is next to the numbers noted below. As for the vowel marks, I'll describe them too, but you can see them at the following link...

    http://at.mansbjorkman.net/teng_quenya.htm#cons_mod

    illume already illustrated in the link above

    vorya letter number 22 with a curl above it (curl open to the right), then letter number 25 with two dots below the letter and three dots above the letter

    varya
    same as vorya except three dots above letter number 22 (a-tehta instead of o-tehta). And I described it already, but to actually see the sequence -rya check out the last word of the first line in the following link. The word here is cirya.

    http://at.mansbjorkman.net/mancenuva.jpg

    estelya e-tehta (acute accent) above a short carrier, letter number 29 (or 30), letter number 1 with an acute accent over it, letter number 27 with two dots inside the curl and three dots above the letter.

    Since it's for a tattoo I suggest getting several opinions. But those are mine. If you don't have the book this third post is probably a waste of time, but it was almost only two words, so no big deal.

    Almost two ;)
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2016
  7. Paula FF

    Paula FF New Member

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    Hi, Galin! Thanks for all the support!

    I tried to use some websites in order to transcript English to Elvish, but I don't know how trustworth it is. I've already posted in another topic here in the forum to help me with the transcription, but there wasn't any response. Nevertheless, I attached some images of the phrase, one is English to Tengwar and the other one is Sindarin (which I guess was the one you used to translate the sentence I asked for) to Sindarin transcript. I don't know if it is possible, but I would really appreciate if you or anybody here could attest if its "right"/undestandable the way the website did the translation.

    Thank you!!
     
  8. Paula FF

    Paula FF New Member

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    For some reason did't go the attachments. Here it is! :)
     

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  9. dirk_math

    dirk_math New Member

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    The English to Tengwar is correct. But the text illume varya, illume estelya, illume vorya is in Quenya, so you should use the Quenya mode.
     
  10. Paula FF

    Paula FF New Member

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    Hi! I corrected that one to Quenya! But searching the internet, I've found this other website which does transcription as well. Comparing the two of them, I found some characters that are a little bit different. Could you please check it out to see if it is acceptable?
     

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  11. dirk_math

    dirk_math New Member

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    The biggest difference between Quenya and Sindarin classic mode is that the vowel signs are on the previous consonant in Quenya and on the next one in Sindarin. On your recent example again you see a vowel I on a double L, so in Quenya this reads LLI, in Sindarin ILL. That's why this recent conversion is still wrong.
    upload_2016-5-2_21-23-56.png
     
  12. Paula FF

    Paula FF New Member

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    Thanks for the explanation! I already saved the image above in my computer! So in this website that I uploaded the last image they only transcribe to Sindarin? If this is it, can I consider the version in English correct?
     
  13. dirk_math

    dirk_math New Member

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  14. Paula FF

    Paula FF New Member

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    Thank you for all the help! I already have one text package installed, but will try to find another one! :)
     

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