Orcs out of pods?

Discussion in 'New Line Cinema's 'LOTR' Trilogy' started by Kris Rhodes, Dec 28, 2001.

  1. Kris Rhodes

    Kris Rhodes Registered User

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    Just want to point out - I saw the movie again and I really don't think the movie portreys orcs as having been spawned out of "pods." The movie shows *saruman's uruks* coming out of sort of pod thingies, but that's to show that they are Saruman's creation.

    The birth of actual orcs, however, is not addressed.

    Also, I had to watch the credits to see who Lurtz is. He isn't even named in the movie... so what's really the "big deal" as it were?

    -Kris
     
  2. ReadWryt

    ReadWryt Guest

    So what you suggest is that perhaps the manner that Uruks are made from Orcs involves these Pod Things? Interesting...

    The whole Lurtz thing is an annoyance at best. It's just that with so many characters cut for the sake of time, Lurtz is a reminder of how time was spent yet again on characters that were not part of the story in the first place...
     

  3. Mandella

    Mandella Registered User

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    I thought about that too, Kris! :)

    It wouldn't really make sense for Lurtz to be such an imposing fighter, having just been birthed! Perhaps Saruman was indeed simply using his powers to twist the best of his half-orc's and orc's into the new fighting Uruk-Hai...

    And the time spent on Lurtz wasn't really about that particular Uruk, but rather of the new race as a whole. They needed to emphasise just how these dark skinned "super-orcs" (As my non-Tolkienite friend called them...:p ) were different and more dangerous than the regular goblins.

    And they succeeded IMHO. Nice touch with the White Hand war paint, too...
     
  4. ReadWryt

    ReadWryt Guest

    New? Let's see...the first movie covers the period through the year 3019, the first mention of Uruks is in a battle in which second Boromir in 2475 routed them out of Ithilien...they had been around for over 500 years...unless you meant new to the audience..oh wait, yeah. I bet that is what you meant, nevermind. DOH!:eek:
     

  5. chrome_rocknave

    chrome_rocknave Frodo Lives!

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    Well, I thought it was uninteresting and dumb to have orcs hatching from pods. I think Jackson only put that in there for the 9 year olds that would be flocking to see a movie with gore...
    I didn't really need to see that....ugh
     
  6. Kris Rhodes

    Kris Rhodes Registered User

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    Well, Chrome

    The book does not actually depict the creation of Saruman's uruks - it simply has another character *say* "Saruman made them" or words to that effect. But (I don't remember specifically why this is,) I came away from the story with the definite impression of that creation being a pretty horrible and nasty and evil science-run-amok kind of thing.

    Now here's the deal. In a movie, I can not think of any way to simply have a character *say* taht he created them and still evoke a reaction (a real, actualy *reaction* and not just head-knowledge) that this was a horrible evil twisted process. In a *movie* (though not necessarily in a book,) this must be explicitly *shown* - it can not be effectively implied through context clues and stylistic rhetorical devices as in a book. Movies just don't work that way.

    So, I think the Uruk-pod conciet was a pretty insightful way to achieve the same (or an analous) effect in the audience. I actually think that changes like this show a great *familiarity with and understanding of* the themes and morals of the LOTR stories.

    -Kris
     
  7. ReadWryt

    ReadWryt Guest

    I don't remember anyone mentioning who made the Military Droids in Phantom Menace, but it was assumed that they were made by someone. I know that Orcs and Machines are different in that we KNOW that a machine had to be made, but that Uruks and Orcs might well have inhabited the mountain caves since time unremembered. Because of the story telling limitations I kind of assumed that we, at some point, would see Saruman commanding his troops. Why then could the concept that he made the Uruks not simply be handled then? "Go do the work I created you for" or words to that effect.

    In light of so many changes being made in the name of reducing confusion for the audience, it seems to me that this works counter to that idea. Why make things "easier" for the Non-Reading audience and Alienate those who actually bothered to crack open the cover of a literary work by reverting back to your Horror Movie/Gore Fest roots? I just think that this was one of those moments when Jackson was at a loss for any creative way to do things and fell back on tricks he learned making movies like Braindead (Dead/Alive), a movie which held the record for having a scene which contained the largest amount of Stage Blood ever shot in a single scene..
     
  8. Thorin

    Thorin LOTR Purist to the end

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    The book and the movie both say (or imply) that Saruman was breeding orcs with man. He was interbreeding and through that would have come out with a different race from just plain old orc. This (maybe along with special wizard power from Saruman) would make it plain why the orcs can run in daylight and are bigger and meaner.

    They breed normally like regular orcs do. They do not come out of pods and to portray that is just silly. Resorting to old horror tricks to show a bit of slime and gore. It is ludicrous to justify it by reason, so stop trying. Tolkien makes things plain.
     
  9. aragil

    aragil Just another loremaster

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    A simple question?

    Who on this board would have felt it less offensive to see some sort of sex scene between a man and she-orc, than it was to watch the pod-hatching?

    NOT ME!!

    The Uruks were originally bread by Sauron, and were bigger, larger, and smarter than those created by Morgoth which had been running around for two and a half ages. But they were not the Uruk-hai. The Uruk-hai were a new breed created by Saruman. They were superior even to the Uruks of Mordor- Grishnak was a Uruk, Ugluk was a Uruk-hai. Why is it important? Well, in my opinion Saruman's ability to improve on the designs of both Morgoth and Sauron is impressive. It shows us all how powerful Saruman was. So it is important to the development of Saruman's character to show him creating this new race of master orcs.
    Of course, there are many ways that Jackson could have shown this creation and stayed true to the book. The above scenario is one that probably would have been pretty appealing to a purported Horror-film hack looking to ratchet up the gore count. But then this would have left him with a whole bunch of infant Uruk-hai- not much use in hunting down the fellowship. Having them hatch out of pods brings the element of magic into it. As a biologist, I can tell you that the heads on those Uruks would probably have been too big at infancy to make it out of the birth canal of a female orc or human. I'd imagine that what happened in the movie is that the fetus were removed from the mother prematurely, and then allowed to experience an accelerated maturation process in the pods.
     
  10. Greenwood

    Greenwood The Guild of Ost-in-Edhil

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    This whole orcs from pods controversy seems to me to be yet another debate about a rumor spread before the film opened.

    I have seen the movie twice now. I saw no pods. I saw orcs stirring (?) some muddy mass from which a new, larger orc thing (presumably a Uruk-hai) emerged. Both the book and the movie say that Saruman was blending/mixing/interbreeding/? (I don't remember the exact quote and I don't have the books at hand at the moment) orcs and men to make bigger, stronger creatures who are unafraid of the sun. Contrary to Thorin's assertion Tolkien does not "make things plain" on this subject.

    The movie chose to visualize the process. Would the people who object to the way it was done in the movie provide an alternative visual? Merely saying: "Just say the races were mixed", does not constitute a visualization. This is a movie. Would you have preferred some Middle Earth version of a biochemistry lab? Saruman was Saruman the White; I suppose he must have had something resembling a lab coat lying around. Or perhaps we could go for and R or X rating for the film and have a scene of maidens from Rohan being dragged off and ravaged by orcs?

    My apologies for the sarcasm. This is the first post in which I have used it, but I am getting tired of hearing complaints about things in the movies that are not in the movie.
     
  11. Greenwood

    Greenwood The Guild of Ost-in-Edhil

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    Aragil

    Our posts seem to be passing each others in the ether again. :) Maybe it is because we both have biological backgrounds.
     
  12. Cian

    Cian sylvan madman

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    Last edited: Dec 28, 2001
  13. Aerin

    Aerin Halfway out the door

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    Reading this thread reminded me of a movie I saw not too long ago...
    As for the Orcs hatching out of pods, what I saw looked an awful lot like a slimy pod Lurtz was coming out of. Not to mention totally revolting!
    But what reminded me was the way Lurtz emerged from the slimy goo. My da had me watch an old movie about two weeks ago, and it was almost exactly the same.
    The movie was "The Invasion of the Body Snatchers", the original one. When the body snatchers emerged from the pods, it looked almost exactly like when the Orc came out of his "pod"... only in "Invasion", it was a human that came out.
    I find this rather amusing, but rather puzzling. Does PJ know that the scene is so close to "Invasion of the Body Snatchers"? If so, was it a ploy to make one think of an alien species?
    As for me, I don't really care how the Orcs bred. In addition, I don't really want to know.... When reading LotR, it is enough to know that the Uruk-Hai are a relatively new breed of Orc that is tougher and stronger than the older Orcs.

    Greenwood - No, I would not care to see what PJ could come up with as a "Middle Earth lab". That thought is revolting, just as the scene where Lurtz makes his entrance is.
     
  14. Foe-Hammer

    Foe-Hammer Registered User

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    The uruk-hai

    were coming out of a sack that looked to be incubating in a primordial soup of sorts. I did not see stacks and stacks of pods and the uruk-hai were fully developed, where as the body snatchers took form over a period of time.

    If I missed it, I apologize, but it seems to me the real reason to show Sarumans making the uruk-hai was to show he had his own agenda. Especially when he commanded lurtz not to spoil (search) them. (even though sauron commanded saruman to create them in the first place)

    With the death of lurtz, the door is opened for a struggle for control within the uruk-hai on the way back to Isengard.
     
  15. Thorin

    Thorin LOTR Purist to the end

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    Which brings me to another interesting NP point.

    Did any of you notice that one of the orcs led by Lurtz was just about to do in Merry and Pippen before Boromir came on the scene? What happened to the command from Saruman that none of the Hobbits were to be harmed and spoiled? This seems like a little bit of an oversight on the directors part rather than an overzealous orc disobeying orders.

    If you want to talk about keeping in the spirit of Tolkien rather than the exact written word, the orcs had many times when they could have ravaged and wiped out the hobbits. Even pyscho Grishnak was in a quandary because of the orders. They did not because they knew to follow orders. It is obvious that one of PJ's orcs was not going to.
     
  16. aragil

    aragil Just another loremaster

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    I noticed that bit too. Who can say, untrustworthy orc or PJ's folly. Remember the opening of book 6- The wiping out of the entire garrison of Cirith Ungol (not to mention a large portion of the rearguard of Minas Morgul) just because some of the orcs didn't want to follow orders.
     
  17. Greenwood

    Greenwood The Guild of Ost-in-Edhil

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    It is quite clear in The Two Towers that the orc band that has captured Merry and Pippin are composed of groups loyal to Saruman and to Sauron. Perhaps the orc attacking them was from Sauron's band.
     
  18. ReadWryt

    ReadWryt Guest

    I'm getting the impression here that folks think that Saruman invented Uruk-hai. Uruks faught way back in 2475 at Ithilien and Osgiliath, this movie takes place in 3018-3019. They are merely a strain of the same Orcs that Melkor created in Utumno in the first age before the Men were created. they are made from Elves who were captured near Cuivienen and had flourished and bred in the Misty Moutains from 1300 onward, the difference being that the Great Orcs, or Uruk-Hai bred to create a strain that would not suffer the ill effects that the Sun has on Pure Bred Orcs.

    Half Orcs are mentioned as Saruman's servants. They are also refered to as The Chief's Men. They are taller and are apparently interbred with Men and are NOT Uruk-hai.
     
  19. Greenwood

    Greenwood The Guild of Ost-in-Edhil

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    Throughout The Two Towers the Uruk-hai are portrayed as Saruman's troops with an implication that he created them.

    In the chapter The Uruk-hai (which as far as I remember is the first time the name is used in LOTR) Ugluk says: "We are the fighting Uruk-hai! We slew the great warrior [Boromir]. We took the prisoners. We are the servants of Saruman the Wise, the White Hand: the Hand that gives us man's-flesh to eat. We came out of Isengard, and led you here ..... "

    Later in The Two Towers in the chapter Treebeard, Treebeard says in talking about Saruman: "He has taken up with foul folk, with the Orcs. Brm, hoom! Worse than that he has been doing something to them; something dangerous. For these Isengarders are more like wicked Men. It is a mark of evil things that came in the Great Darkness that they cannot abide the Sun; but Saruman's Orcs can endure it, even if they hate it. I wonder what he has done? Are they Men he has ruined, ir has he blended the races of Orcs and Men? That would be a black evil!"

    Tolkien seems to be distinguishing the Uruk-hai as Saruman's and later implying Saruman had a hand in creating them.
     
  20. Tuor

    Tuor Nobody important

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    In an attempt to reconcile the muddy membrane thing that Lurtz came out of, I think that Saruman caused the Uruk-Hai either to be born with intact amniotic sacks or surrounded by the afore-mentioned membrane after birth. The Uruk-Hai were then incubated there, being made stronger and smarter than they would have been. Or it could have been just Lurtz, and maybe Ugluk too, who were incubated in this fashion.