Round 10: GoT vs GoE

Discussion in 'Debates' started by Celebthôl, Nov 10, 2003.

  1. Scatha

    Scatha The dragon of wrath

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    Yes, Findi, you still have me. :D But since I am not able to come up with quotes in english, I would like to have our resident *ghost* ;) enter the debate at this point.

    Beth would like to finish this with me, if you all agree. :)
     
  2. Lhunithiliel

    Lhunithiliel Fëanorean

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    TWO butt-kickers in a team!?!?:eek: :eek: :eek:

    Poor us! :p

    But seriously, Beth and the ghost are welcome. It's fine with us!

    And never bother about the quotes, Scatha!
    In English or not, even your ghost won't find anything to back up the argument of th GoE's Team that the Ringwraiths suffered AT ALL! :p
    Besides, you always have the GoT to provide quotes for you! :p (Kidding!)
     

  3. Finduilas

    Finduilas Hope brings Death...

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    Yes, I too have nothing against Beth....come,come ;)....and I am patiently awaiting her appearance. :)

    As for the quotes, there is no problem to use ours...Tolkien's I mean ;)... and I also think that if you want to post a quote but have not the text in English can try to translate it in English (as good as you can) and refer it to a chapter and a book. Thus we may find it and oppose it..:p
    :)
     
  4. Bethelarien

    Bethelarien The Lost Evenstar

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    Thanks for your acceptance. I will try to post later tonight, but due to a very recent family tragedy, I'll likely be spending most of the night in the ICU at the hospital. So I'll probably put up my first post tomorrow.
     

  5. Gil-Galad

    Gil-Galad in love

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    I hope everything your family will be ok soon!Our fingers are crossed for you....:(
     
  6. Bethelarien

    Bethelarien The Lost Evenstar

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    Thank you very much, your most royal highness. ;)

    (and sorry for the spam)
     
  7. Lhunithiliel

    Lhunithiliel Fëanorean

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    Oh, Beth! :(
    I hope everything will be all right with your sis! !!!

    I truly don't know what to do now with this debate!
    :eek:
    But don't feel obliged or anything to be here when you're needed somewhere else much more important!
     
  8. Scatha

    Scatha The dragon of wrath

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    Thanks Beth, but as I said before, your first concern is your family and not the debate. Know however that our hearts are with you and your sister. :)
     
  9. Celebthôl

    Celebthôl Loremaster

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    Just so i am clear on this, why did Omni leave? And after this is cleared up, can we get back to the debate? Thanx.

    P.S. Beth, i really hope you sister gets well, as you know i have prayed for her and your family. . .
     
  10. Finduilas

    Finduilas Hope brings Death...

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    Beth, please concern your family first.
    There will be more debates but health is most important,because you can't turn it back...:(

    We'll be waiting whenever you come.
     
  11. Gil-Galad

    Gil-Galad in love

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    Yeah,you have all the time you need to post your things,but till the end of the debate :)
     
  12. Lhunithiliel

    Lhunithiliel Fëanorean

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    I think that this debate has no further chances for development, taken into consideration the circumstances.

    Therefore I offer the Eruhini to post their closing post. We'll follow.
     
  13. Bethelarien

    Bethelarien The Lost Evenstar

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    Here I go. Yay for me. :D And I apologize for the abhorrent length of my post, but then again, I am replying to posts throughout the entire debate.

    This is the question. The Guild of Eruhini has chosen to show that he did not.

    Here are two of our main reasonings as to our answer, once again.
    This is a belief that, naturally, has no documented basis, as our opponents have frequently accused us of.
    May I remind the GoT that the question is not whether or not Gollum suffered, but if he suffered the most? Of course he suffered. There were simply others who suffered more than he.
    So there! Our opponents admit it! Others suffered more than Gollum!
    If Gollum had been truly repentant, Sam's words to him would have made no difference. Repentance denotes a complete change of heart. And Tolkien says "the complete change in Gollum's tone and aspect". Therefore, in essence, he HAD repented.

    Now, the Ringwraiths. (I can practically see Lhun rolling her eyes.;))
    Well, Lhun, as you've so delicately pointed out:
    And yet, you've just told us exactly how the Nazgul feel. Hmmm....Lhun, the walking contradiction.;) Nevertheless, your above statement about the Ringwraiths' lack of regret is therefore unsubstantiated and cannot be used as evidence. Pity.
    The Nazgul, once great kings of Men, were deceived by Sauron. Now, remember, at this time Sauron was Lord of Gifts, not the cruel Dark Lord. They took them without question, as did the Dwarves and Elves. THEY DID NOT KNOW WHAT WOULD HAPPEN.

    Why is this important, you may ask? Because suffering denotes a victim. One who suffers is a victim, that is simply how it is. A victim almost always does not know what is going on until it is too late, as the case is with the Nazgul. The Nazgul, not knowing Sauron's intentions until it was too late, were not given a choice. Of course they took the offered rings. They were kings, and the rings were kingly gifts. No doubt they were used to receiving such gifts.

    Gollum, on the other hand, had many choices, many chances.
    This is Gollum's chance, one of many. He had begun to love Frodo. Of course, we know that later Sam says some harsh things, and our opponents claim this prevents Gollum's repentence. For heaven's sake, no! Gollum had the choice--and he chose to let Sam's negativity and unkindness sway him. Had he truly repented, his heart would have been truly changed, and such a comment would not have invoked such wickedness from Smeagol.
    Precisely. As my esteemed colleague has said, losing your humanity would be suffering of no comparison. The Nazgul no longer had the freedom to think or act for themselves. They were COMPLETELY under Sauron's thumb. They could make no choices, and had, in truth, no accountability. Gollum, on the other hand, was free to choose. His will was not Sauron's, nor anyone elses' but his; therefore, he could choose, and chose wickedness.

    And then there is this preposterous comment by Gil-Galad (no offense ;))
    WHAT?!? Oh, good grief! Once again, our opponents blame others for Gollum's choices. He CHOSE to leave, under circumstances he himself had created by murdering Deagol.

    Another one by Gil-Galad:
    What on earth?!? Of course Gollum could have resisted. He could have overcome it. Bilbo did. As you will recall, Bilbo WILLINGLY gave up the Ring. True, Gollum had the One longer than Bilbo and Frodo put together. However, he still had a chance.

    Now one by Lhun:
    Nice try, but "indomitable" does not equate to "core of good".
    indomitable-Incapable of being overcome, subdued, or vanquished; unconquerable. Not meaning "core of good".

    Now, to sum up my rather lengthy post.

    Gollum did not suffer more than anyone else in Middle-earth, most certainly not more than the Ringwraiths. As my esteemed colleague Omni has said:
    and
    And there you have it. Having been stripped of soul, will, and humanity, the Nazgul suffered far greater than Gollum. Therefore, Gollum did not suffer more than any being in Middle-earth.

    So say I, Bethelarien the indomitable. :D
     
  14. Gil-Galad

    Gil-Galad in love

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    Lhun will post our closing post.:)
     
  15. Lhunithiliel

    Lhunithiliel Fëanorean

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    Ooops! :eek:
    I posted a closing post but it seems I must have miscalculated the time left to the end of the debate!
    I was asked by the Host to delete it... So... I did.... :(

    Thol...Thol... You should've warned us in time!

    Anyway, I still wish the judges good luck in judging the debate and I also thank our opponinets for the nice opportunity to debate against them.

    Hm... Some more organizationa could've still be useful, you know... :rolleyes:
     
  16. Celebthôl

    Celebthôl Loremaster

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    Im sorry :( I messed up the whole debate :( Im sorry, i would have closed it, but i wanst awake at 1am GMT :(

    I really am very sorry :(
     
  17. Gil-Galad

    Gil-Galad in love

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    So what now?Is it fair our closing pos to be deleted,because there was no warning?Is it fair?Is it really fair?:(
     
  18. Celebthôl

    Celebthôl Loremaster

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    I have no choice, 14 hours is WAY to long a time. Tho i won't object if you wished to take this to a higher person, someone who is more qualified. . . Eri maybe?
     
  19. Gil-Galad

    Gil-Galad in love

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    Well I think we did our job in the best possible way even without the closing post,but the problem is that we were not warned,and I think we were supposed to be warned.
    At least something like "There are four hours left" or etc. ...
     
  20. Lhunithiliel

    Lhunithiliel Fëanorean

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    It's OK. Really!
    Things happen....

    We did a great job.... So did our opponents....

    Let's close the topic :)