Discussion in 'Debates' started by Gil-Galad, Nov 7, 2003.
Just to remind you that you have less than 5 hours
I think we have both strayed from the time period in question, namely the ages after the War of Wrath. Hence the questions of the houses' effects on the events of the First Age are irrelevant. (I just re-realized this)
Taking this into account, the question is which house left the most enduring legacy from the Second age on. As I see it the argument for Nogrod is as follows:
Nogrod: destruction of Doriath -- flight of Elwing -- marriage of Elwing and Earendil, silmaril comes to Earendil -- birth of Elros and Elrond -- effect on Numenor and Rivendell -- Arwen marries Aragorn -- effect on Gondor
I would argue that Ulmo would have contrived to have Earendil's voyage happen whether Elwing was forced to flee from Doriath at that time or not. This is however clearly a hypothesis.
Our case for Belegost:
trustworthiness in the Battle of Unnumbered Tears -- improved trust between Dwarves and Elves and Men -- alliance in later ages (Moria-Eregion, role in Last Alliance (?), Kingdom under Mountain-Dale) -- defense of Kingdom under Mountain and Dale during War of the Ring -- protection of Rivendell, Lorien, Mirkwood, ultimately Gondor -- drew Sauron's armies away from war with Gondor -- saved Arwen in Rivendell -- helped Gondor survive and flourish under Aragorn and Arwen
Durin's Folk -- establishment of Moria -- mutual benefit from Elves of Eregion -- Last Alliance (?) -- Kingdom under Mountain -- alliance with Gandalf -- destruction of Smaug -- restoration of Kingdom Under Mountain and of Dale -- Gimli in the Fellowship -- (see above)
(Apparently Inderjit isn't posting, so I guess this is our concluding post.)
Here is the concluding post for the GOO:
You forget one important thing-without Elros, there would be no Numenoreans to enrich the men of Middle Earth, no downfall which lead to the formation of Gondor and Arnor, no Rangers of the north or the south to wage a daily battle again evil. It doesn't merely have an 'effect' upon them-they do not exist, because he does not exist. Without Elrond, there is no Arwen-period. He is not there to aid Gil-galad in the Last Alliance battle, nor to offer his counsel in any other way. Without Elros and Elrond, there is no Fellowship, for it was Elros's descendants and Elrond who helped bring that about.
Our final argument is that the dwarves of Nogrod(being the more volatile of the only two groups of master dwarvish craftsmen) had a unique and important part in the Music. Their role in creating the Nauglamir, slaying Thingol(causing Melian to leave and so leaving Doriath far more vulnerable than it would have been originally) was a 'necessary evil' which lead to Elwing's fleeing of Doriath with the Silmaril and meeting Earendil: this in turn caused the births of two essential beings who had a unimaginably positive effect on the outcome in the war against Sauron.
The debate is closed.
Thank you to both Guilds.
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