Round 9: Ost-in-Edhil vs. Tolkienology

Discussion in 'Debates' started by Rhiannon, Oct 24, 2003.

  1. Rhiannon

    Rhiannon is one hand clapping

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2003
    Messages:
    1,011
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    College student, psuedo-intellectual, and lady gee
    Location:
    Rohan
    Home Page:
    This debate closes tomorrow, November 5th, at midnight Central time

    Confirmed judge list:

    Scholars - Captain
    Periaur - Aule
    Outcasts - Rhiannon
    Eruhíni - Nevavarein
    Neutral - Ithrynluin
     
  2. Aulë

    Aulë The Larrikin

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2002
    Messages:
    2,988
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    Agronomist/Researcher
    Location:
    Perth, Australia
    Rhi: Arvedui's first post was on the 10-28-2003 at 18:14 PM GMT
    Therefore the debate closed on the 11-04-2003 at 18:14 PM GMT (10 hours ago)
     

  3. Rhiannon

    Rhiannon is one hand clapping

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2003
    Messages:
    1,011
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    College student, psuedo-intellectual, and lady gee
    Location:
    Rohan
    Home Page:
    Maybe on your calculator it is...When I count seven days from the 28th I get the 5th
     
  4. Aulë

    Aulë The Larrikin

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2002
    Messages:
    2,988
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    Agronomist/Researcher
    Location:
    Perth, Australia
    (Note to Rhi: October has 31 days ;) )
     

  5. Rhiannon

    Rhiannon is one hand clapping

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2003
    Messages:
    1,011
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    College student, psuedo-intellectual, and lady gee
    Location:
    Rohan
    Home Page:
    Well if you want to be snippy about it...

    Did you hear about me scratching my mom's car this week?
     
  6. Aulë

    Aulë The Larrikin

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2002
    Messages:
    2,988
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    Agronomist/Researcher
    Location:
    Perth, Australia
    TUES Oct 28th - Start debate
    WED Oct 29th
    THUR Oct 30th
    FRI Oct 31st
    SAT Nov 1st
    SUN Nov 2nd
    MON Nov 3rd
    TUES Nov 4th - End debate

    ;)
     
  7. Rhiannon

    Rhiannon is one hand clapping

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2003
    Messages:
    1,011
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    College student, psuedo-intellectual, and lady gee
    Location:
    Rohan
    Home Page:
    Whatever. My brain was surgically removed by aliens two weeks ago and I am no longer responsible for my actions.
     
  8. Lhunithiliel

    Lhunithiliel Fëanorean

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2002
    Messages:
    3,138
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    translator
    I am sorry, but do the GoT now have the right to still post our closing post or not?
     
  9. Lhunithiliel

    Lhunithiliel Fëanorean

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2002
    Messages:
    3,138
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    translator
    As the Hostess of the debate has not closed it, then I suppose the GoT still has the opportunity for posting our closing notes.

    First of all, however, I would like to thank the Guild of OiE for the most interesting and tollerant debate! :)

    Closing post

    The Topic: 'Who proved more detrimental to the good of the other peoples of Middle-Earth: The Noldorin Exiles or the lesser houses of Men?'

    The GoT defended the position that it was the Noldor exiles who proved more detrimental.

    Our main arguments:

    A/ Personal responsibility

    This argument was not well countered by our opponents, though being developed in full by our team.

    The Noldor exiles were a people with highly developed lore and knowledge as a result of their direct interactions with and direct guidance by the Valar.
    The "lesser" Men had no such "luck".

    Taking into consideration that higher knowledge,

    a/ gives more power BUT!!! also
    b/ requires a higher sense of responsiblity

    GoT states that the Noldor failed in this respect far stronger than the "lesser" Men, which eventually gave a far stronger negative impact on both - the current and on the further course of events, thus causing a strong detrimental effect to the good of all peoples in ME.

    How?

    They implemented their knowledge and lore, hence - their power and authority, mainly for and in favour of their own good.

    a/ refusal of the Silmarilli to the Valar
    b/ rebellion against the Valar
    c/ kinslaying at Aqualonde
    d/ for all above - "being rewarded" by the Curse of Mandos! - btw, an argument that was lightheartedly missed by our opponents! ;) All they said it was not import :eek:

    d/ entering the lands of Beleriand and settling there building up their own kingdoms as conquerers and in pursuit of selfish reasons (the regaining of the Silmarilli, revenge for the death of their King, wishing kingdoms of their own...)

    Here I would like to point out that it IS important to know the reasons for the Noldor's deeds, unlike our opponents! It is very essential!

    A lot has been provided by our team in this respect referring this part of our arguments and I am not going now to repeat it all.
    In simpler words :

    The Noldor wronged heavily against the Valar and against their kin and failing to bear the responsibility for their wrong deeds, they continued the same line of actions transferring and imposing that wrong attitude and policy to new territories - ME.
    That attitude led to involving all the races of ME into fierce wars, battles and conflicts which eventually and on its part resulted in:

    >> a strongly observed estrangement among the peoples of ME
    >> great loss of lore and achievements (sadly - most of it reached by themselves!)

    The Noldor just failed to take responsibility! And they should have, being the far more knowledgable and powerful nation!
    But they failed!
    This was one of the major detrimental impacts ever observed in the histroy of Arda. Probably the next, in whole its "wrongness", after the deeds of Melkor.
    It was global, strong and with long-lasting effect.

    Therefore, the GoT considers it as far more detrimental than the influence of the "lesser" Men. "They should've known better what their power may lead to!!! They should've not permitted this "plague" to be spread." Instead, they chose to escape from responsibility.


    tbc
     
  10. Lhunithiliel

    Lhunithiliel Fëanorean

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2002
    Messages:
    3,138
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    translator
    B/ Direct detrimental deeds of the Noldor exiles

    Regarding this issue, the GoT provided a lot of arguments and facts about :
    1/ the wars
    2/ the policy of showing different attitude towards other races - Men of different houses in particular.

    Re: p.1:

    Our opponents claim that the wars were unleashed in Beleriand by Melkor far before the coming of the Noldor exiles.
    The truth however is that the presence and the power of Melkor, before their coming to ME was absolute. Practically, Melkor was the full master of Beleriand before the coming of the Noldor exiles to ME and no other group of people could match his authority. That little resistance he had encountered on behalf of the Avari was insignificant, for them being not strong enough to oppose him.
    Only with the coming of the Noldor exiles to ME Melkor felt threatened.
    Thus, with the coming of the Noldor to ME arose the major conflict between the two most influential powers - that of the Noldor and himself.
    The result - five destructive wars!

    Now, our opponents claim that the Noldor led the wars for high and noble purpose - to restrain Melkor and to clear ME from his presence.

    On the surface it may look so. Yet, let's not forget the fact that the Noldor needed lands for their new kingdoms free from Melkor and his creatures and later allies! Long before any Men came to Beleriand the Noldor already were fighting Morgoth!
    One could hardly find here the reason our opponents want us to believe - namely that the Noldor led the wars for the good of all people. What all people? Not until 310 year of the Sun were there any others but Elves! (Oh, well, let's not forget the Dwarves! But then again...did the Noldor show too mcuh willingness to befriend them?)

    The fact stays :
    No Noldor in Beleriand - no threat to Melkor's authority - no devastating wars.
    Sadly, what might seem a "good" reason led to a destructivly bad result.

    And let's not forget p.A above! :)

    Re: p.2

    The Noldor did show different attitude towards the other races and in particular - to Men from different houses.
    To the Edain they showed favour and friendship. It was them to whom they taught much lore and helped in developing and improving.

    To the "lesser" Men the Noldor showed distrust, especially after a separate group of those caused to a great extent, though not entirely because of, the loss of one of their major battles.

    Thus, the Noldor wronged again by "taining with one brush" all those who did not come from the Houses of the Edain, "branding" them as enemies to the Elves.

    Wrong attitude! Very wrong and unjust!
    And it led to negative results that were felt far into the further ages to come, demonstrated in:
    - the estrangement of the races of the Children of Eru
    - the policy of favouring ones and neglecting others even by the Valar (remember to whom Numenor was given and for what reasons?)

    And in fact, it again comes to taking responsibilty! The Noldor should have never favoured ones against others. They should have shown a better understanding and if they cared equally for the good of all races and peoples, they should have tried to overcome such a wrong and strongly individual attitude.
    But they failed to do this!

    As a result - the "lesser" Men were entirely abandoned to their fate and to the power of Melkor over them!

    Therefore, the detrimental effect from this wrong policy/attitude was much stronger to the good of all peoples of ME in the overall history.

    tbc
     
  11. Lhunithiliel

    Lhunithiliel Fëanorean

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2002
    Messages:
    3,138
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    translator
    And finally :)

    C/ Which of the two peoples (Noldor vs. "lesser") was after all the strongest weapon of Evil?

    Here it comes to the issue - in which race was Melkor's corruption more influential and who opposed it more efficiently IF opposing it at all.
    Because, if this issue is cleared, then it will become obvious whose was the far more detrimental effect.

    Both teams here agreed on the fact that both - the Noldor and the "lesser" Men were heavily corrupted by Melkor.
    No wonder! Melkor was the root of Evil in Arda!

    The GoT however showed that the malice and the corruption of Melkor was more strongly demonstarted in the case of the Noldor.

    The Noldor were Melkor's prime aim long before the direct clash between him and them. Their minds had been heavily corrupted by him and unfortunately the other Valar did not or could not interfere.
    This led to deeds on behalf of the Noldor that contradicted the very nature of this race!

    But it is quite understandable! A more powerful enemy needs a more "special" attention! And Melkor did his best in the case of the Noldor, causing an ever-lasting marring to his most powerful enemy! He had to overcome the immense power of Good that this race had in them. The Noldor, as part of the Elves who were directly taught and protected by the Valar, were a tough case!
    Therefore their fall was devastating!
    That was the greatest victory of Melkor!

    Men? They were not a difficult task for Morgoth! No wonder! Men had lost the direct guidance and help on behalf of the Valar and even Eru almost right from the start! An easy pray for Melkor!

    Yet not all of them!!!!
    The Edain and lots of their followers still preferred to believe in Good.
    Were it not for the wrong policy of neglecting the fate ot the Men from the other houses, led by the Noldor and later by the Valar, Men could have all been won for the Good!
    Unfortunately, starting with the unjust attitude of the Noldor towards the "lesser", the wrong attitude deepened and led later to the complete fall of Men to the influence of Melkor.

    Therefore, finding the roots of evil and analysing the results, one again comes to the sad fact that for the detrimental effect of the "lesser" Men the reason lies in the wrong deeds of the Noldor.

    The GoT considers the reason far more important than the consequence.
    Therefore we find a stronger detrimental result from the failure on behalf of the Noldor to oppose Melkor's corruption.

    *****************

    Thanks for the patience shown on behalf of the judges of this debate for reading our looooong posts! :)
     
  12. Aulë

    Aulë The Larrikin

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2002
    Messages:
    2,988
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    Agronomist/Researcher
    Location:
    Perth, Australia
    Ummm...Lhun.
    The debate finished about 15 hours ago...
    I gave a 12 hour warning, and Rhi acknowledged that she was wrong in her closing time.

    I suppose your closing post can be accepted though, if the OiE are fine with it.
     
  13. Lhunithiliel

    Lhunithiliel Fëanorean

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2002
    Messages:
    3,138
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    translator
    I am sorry for the confusion.
    But I did ask for permission...or at least I asked whether the Got could post our final post... There was no answer. But the debate-thread was not closed and I interpreted Rhi's final post on the issue as a fact that the debate had a few more hours.... :confused:

    Anyway, I suppose the Hostess of the debate may consult our opponents and if they don't mind ... I guess our post should then be considered as valid....
     
  14. Rhiannon

    Rhiannon is one hand clapping

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2003
    Messages:
    1,011
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    College student, psuedo-intellectual, and lady gee
    Location:
    Rohan
    Home Page:
    Since I am the source of confusion, I apologize to everyone, and ask that Ost-in-Edhil accept Lhunithiliel's final post as valid.
     
  15. Gothmog

    Gothmog Lord of Balrogs Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2001
    Messages:
    1,845
    Likes Received:
    77
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Cardiff, United Kingdom
    There was some confusion as to the finish time of the debate and this was not challenged by Ost-in-Edhil at the time.

    Personally I feel that after such a wonderful and friendly debate it would be churlish in the extream to ask that the closing post of the Tolkienologists be excluded.

    I am willing for it to be considered a valid post in the dabate.
     
  16. Lhunithiliel

    Lhunithiliel Fëanorean

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2002
    Messages:
    3,138
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    translator
    Thank you! :)

    Then.... Green lights to the Judges! :)
     
  17. Rhiannon

    Rhiannon is one hand clapping

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2003
    Messages:
    1,011
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    College student, psuedo-intellectual, and lady gee
    Location:
    Rohan
    Home Page:
    Thank you for your courtesy, Gothmag. The Tolkienologists' final posts stand.

    The debate is now closed.

    I apologize again to the guilds for being and incompetent host.

    The judging thread may be found here