Round 9: The Guild of Scholars v The Guild of Eruhini

Discussion in 'Debates' started by Gothmog, Oct 24, 2003.

  1. BlackCaptain

    BlackCaptain Vast Menace of Despair

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    Decieved? Persuaded rather. He may have had that, but if there was no pity at all to be found in Fangorn then he would have kept him locked up. Saruman's persuasion (in this example) is used to find that pity and bring it to surface. If there was no pity to find, what good does your argument make?

    Perhaps so, but what did Saruman do then? Took over the Shire. Now honestly, do you think that the greatest of the Istari (a very elite member of the Maiar) could be considered anything but on a downward spiral when he's reduced to controlling the pipe weed import/export of the Land of Halflings? Persuasion isn't a skill you can loose... it's something that once you know how to do it, it stays with you. As long as he doesnt damage his voice in any way...


    Did Treebeard know a thing about Gollum? Could Treebeard know what it's like to be betrayed? You can't blame him one bit for thinking Saruman was reconciled. Who knows? Maybe Treebeard knew that Saruman couldn't do much damage besides the damage he'd do in his inferior state. Even if he didnt, he was still correct to release Saruman. He can't be entirely dumbfounded and blind to what Saruman still has left.
     
  2. omnipotent_elf

    omnipotent_elf Omnipotent....mmm....good

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    Persuade: "to induce to a belief,convince, manipulate"
    - webster Comprehensive dictionar, Encylcopedic edition. (1992, if you want the make)
    Given, the use of the word Decieve doesnt change much...

    I dont mind if we use persuade. Are you trying to say that Sauruman did not influence to impose upon treebeards descision by playing on his conscience?
    Saruman manipulated treebeard

    look:
    IF that is not pity, please tell me what is


    that imply's my argument is good :D ;)


    now

    A interesting comment, but I would have thought that was a great great improvement on being "trapped" within fangorn forest. Indeed, for him to control the land of the halflings after being assumend merely a shadow surely implies that he had great power
    additionally, as he was the greatest of the Istari(a very elite member of the Maiar), then why is it safe to let him go?. Surely, Sauruman's greatness would have meant that the safest option was to keep him within fangorn!!!

    why???

    well, it depends how good at persuasion Sauruman was. As "the greatest of the Istari (according to you) and a "elite member of the Maiar" I would have thought that would have meant he was brilliant at persuasion. Do not also forget, that Treebeard was unaware of what great damage to the woods which Sauruman was doing!

    thus Sauruman was still a great danger!!!
     

  3. Inderjit S

    Inderjit S Bootylicious

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    What good would it do to leave Saruman in Isengard?

    Who would or could have removed him?

    The 'power' of Orthanc? So he evidently had some power whilst he was in Orthanc. I can back this up by the following statements:

    Evidently Saruman still had some power whilst in Orthanc. Who would ever be able to oust him if he elected to remain? Or could he have caused still some ruin to the Rohirrim from Orthanc?

    Saruman would indeed have been a potent threat from Orthanc. What could Gandalf or anyone do? Nothing. Gandalf states so himself twice.

    With the passing of Saruman he was robbed of all-his pride, home and his place of power, once he was ousted from Orthanc this toothless snake (Or one tooth snake) had little power or influence upon the affairs of Middle-Earth, he was left to wonder and to end his life howsoever he wished,

    So long as he remained in Orthanc Saruman was a threat.

    There was still some use in him going to the Shire. Gandalf states;

    It allowed for the Hobbits to rescue the shire. "That is what you have been trained for". At last the Hobbits must deal with their own problems themselves, they had "grown exiling Saruman and his Men out of Bag End.

    Saruman, was of course, leaving The Shire himself at that time, to leave it to the mercy (or lack of thereof) of his Men. It allowed for the Hobbits to establish themselves and more importantly-to stick up for themselves. 'There is a seed of courage in even the most timid Hobbits'-the Hobbits had been doormats for far too long, they needed to be roused (In a similar way to the Ents) and with the aid of Merry, Pippin, Frodo and Sam they were able to defeat Saruman-and show him how low he had gone, to be thrust out like a beggar by the simple Hobbits, who were now clearly strong enough to take care of themselves. It was one of Gandalf's aims to "educated" Hobbits, and this acted as a swift and lasting education.

    Fate, plays a big part in Middle-Earth. Who is to say that this wasn't fate working it's way for the best of Middle-Earth? What would Saruman have done to been reduced to, gnawing his hatred for years?

    It also allows for Saruman to be given a last chance to repent, he is set free by Frodo, and it also gives Wormtounge a chance to repent too, but alas-they do not take it and their fates are sealed.


    Saruman was pretty powerless. Gandalf was the greatest of the Istari. But Saruman was almost impotent, he had little power outside Orthanc.

    Treebeard was aware of the damage Saruman was doing-in a way he was the woods-he was the lord of his forest-how could he not know what was going on in them?
     
  4. Scatha

    Scatha The dragon of wrath

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    The question of this debate, is not whether Saruman was powerless or not, which he clearly wasn't if he managed to persuade Treebeard to release him, nor powerless enough not to have caused havoc in the Shire, but more about Treebeard being right or not by releasing him.

    In that light of day, with his powers of persuasion still intact, Saruman was in fact still a menace, leading to events that would not have happened if the Ent had held the former white wizard in check.

    Therefor, no other conclusion can be made, then that Treebeard was wrong in releasing him, even though Saruman himself persuaded the Ent to let him go. After Saruman's release, still trees were being damaged in the Shire, due to Saruman's influence, thus Treebeard's decision was clearly a wrong one. Even in the eyes of an Ent, I might add.
     

  5. BlackCaptain

    BlackCaptain Vast Menace of Despair

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    And for what? How could you possibly leave this menace locked up forever? Sure, Gandalf could have kept him in, but Gandalf only. I dont think that anyone in middle earth but Gandalf could endure the voice of Saruman. And what happens when Gandalf is sick of playing baby-sitter for Saruman? What happens when Gandalf realizes his mission in Middle Earth is done? He can't stay just to stop Saruman's futile attacks against the insignificant Shire. It was a problem that could (and was) be easily dealt with.

    Simply, Gandalf couldnt stay in Isengard forever defending the Gap of Rohan against Saruman's voice. When he would leave, who would there be to prevent Saruman from getting out? If Treebeard just left Isengard, Saruman could escape with some type of ladder. With Fangorn there, he could easily persuade him.

    It wasn't in Treebeard's power to hold Saruman in the Moon Fang. And why would he want to leave him in anyways? So he could escape at a later time (Probably recovered and full of plans)?

    He would have escaped sooner or later; why not sooner? Fangorn made the right choice without even knowing it. But it's not the question whether or not he consciencely made the choice or not.
     
  6. Inderjit S

    Inderjit S Bootylicious

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    The power of Saruman ties in with this topic. You cannot take a narrow stance when looking at the question, the power of Saruman irrevocably links with this question, Saruman being released, or not so, links with the question at hand since his power, or lack of it, would be a issue or consequence, if you will, of Treebeard's decisions. You cannot hinge you argument upon one argument and dismiss all others as being out of bounds of the question at hand, since they irreversibly link with the consequences of Treebeard's decisions of releasing Saruman.

    What about the 'havoc' that he may have caused if he was left to his own devices? What if years later he had fooled Treebeard or someone else with his voice? Would they have the wisdom of Gandalf? They could not lock Saruman in there forever, as long as he lived he was a threat, as soon as a threat is removed the better, and in releasing Saruman Treebeard ensured Saruman's demise and death. Saruman may have wreaked more havoc in the Shire then he did if he was released say after the deaths of Pippin and Merry and the passing of Sam and Frodo.

    The Hobbits were 'awakened' they were able to protect themselves, for a while, and got a taste of what the wide world was like due to Saruman's men (And his 'deal' or alliance with Lotho) and the Shire would have been damaged anyway, but the whole point is that it was eventually cured, and made whole again. 'All's well that end's better' as the Gaffer would say.

    Saruman in Isengard, his impenetrable fortress would have been a threat. Saruman dead would have been one less threat.

    'Justice' or the right decision cannot be seen universally, that is, not everyone interprets justice in the same way. What is just to one person may not be just to another one. Was it wise for Treebeard to release Saruman, moved seemingly by pity, enhanced by Saruman's? Who can say. Pity is for each individual to give as freely as he or she wishes.

    The more important part of this is not a criticisms of Treebeards pity, but of the consequences of his actions. In the long and short run, we can see that his decisions was a good one. The Hobbits realised what the big bad world was like and about, after years of isolation, the four Hobbits were able to 'prove themselves', the Shire was eventually brought back to it's former glory, in fact it prospered even more then before, Saruman was removed from Orthanc, King Ellesar issued his edict which preserved Hobbit's livelihoods for a great amount of time, and Orthanc was open again, and the threat to Gondor and Rohan didn't exist there any-more and it was a fortress of Gondor again, and many stolen treasures were recovered, it eased passage between the north-south Kingdom, which would have been great in the long days after, Saruman was dead, or rendered impotent, and all's well that ends better. ;)

    Trees were always being 'damaged' for say fire-wood, or timber for ships and other purposes. Of course this damage was senseless, but how many of these Trees that were cut down for the needs of various people were replenisd. (i.e The Númenóreans ravaged the Eriadorian woods in the S.A.) The Shire was restored and the trees grew back-what's the problem? Everything worked out O.K in the end.
     
  7. Scatha

    Scatha The dragon of wrath

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    Gandalf did not come by years later to see what became of Saruman, now did he? At that point, the fallen wizard would have been rendered powerless altogether, without the given circumstances in the book of his later demise by the hand of his own minion.


    Impenetrable? With most of Saruman's powers gone, Gandalf could have easily gotten in. Nor would there have been a risk of being persuaded to release him, as the old stormcrow would not have fallen for it.

    Correct, inderjit. Justice is interpreted by each in a different fashion. Pity however, is greatly influenced by circumstance, whether the idea that sprouted it, may nontheless be wrong.

    Whether or not this would not have happened by another means, remains to be seen. After all, Tolkien did not write a secondary outcome of his book. Orthanc would have been liberated one way or another and Saruman removed from it.

    The problem lies in the fact that this could have been accomplished much easier, without more fighting in the Shire. Gandalf would never have left Orthanc to Saruman, knowing his power to be replenished in time. There and at that moment, the same demise for Saruman could have been accomplished, as Grima would probably have dealt Saruman the same faith, when confronted by Gandalf. Saruman was not able to withstand Gandalf anymore, not at a distance, nor at close range.

    As for BC's arguement, that the fallen wizard could have escaped by other means, this is rather far fetched, as he could not even get through the circle of Ents that were guarding it. All they had to do is keep him there long enough for Gandalf to end the matter, which in fact would only have been a little longer.

    And I doubt a ladder would have done the trick, by the description of Orthanc itself, BC. :p
     
  8. BlackCaptain

    BlackCaptain Vast Menace of Despair

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    Well if the Ents were gaurding the border he could have just persuaded them to let him out. It's only 800 meters to the wall, I'm sure if he yelled loud enough he could have had one of them come over and help him down.

    And if Gandalf had come what would have happened?
    He would have condemned Saruman to eternity locked up in this thing, which we know would have resulted in Saruman's potential escape. What else could he have done to keep him locked up forever that Saruman couldn't talk himself out of? Gandalf couldn't stay, and he's the only person resistant to Saruman's Tongue.

    And why wouldn't a ladder've worked? He could just lower one from the balcony to the steps. If he can devise bombs to break the previously impenitrable Helm's Wall I'm sure he could've devised a simple ladder. What's so hard to believe about that?

    The point of my post was that Saruman would have gotten out even if Gandalf had come, so what was so wrong with Fangorn letting him out then?
     
  9. Scatha

    Scatha The dragon of wrath

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    You'd have to yell VERY loud to carry your voice across that distance. Try it sometime. ;)

    So far as the book tells us, Saruman's demise was one of pure luck, so if you look at it like that, Treebeard's choice was wrong.
    What would have happened is that Saruman and Gandalf most likely would have fought inside Orthanc.

    What would he have made the ladder of? Trees? I'm sure Treebeard would have loved that. :p

    Treebeard could not have foreseen the outcome of Saruman's release, therefor was wrong to let him go. He already was aware of the havoc and mayhem the wizard caused and could (or should) have expected it to happen again.
     
  10. Inderjit S

    Inderjit S Bootylicious

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    Rendered powerless? What would lead to a decrease in his power exactly? You do not lose 'power' (The kind Saruman had, rather then say a warrior) by staying in your tower.

    But did he? Did he want to? Saruman was out of Gandalf's plans-he didn't desire mastery. But with Gandalf gone there goes one of the few people who could resist the voice of Saruman, apart from Galadriel and Elrond maybe. 'Much evil festers in that tower' if the evil remained in the tower then maybe evil would fester in there for a long time after-Treebeard's decision was more effective in the long run, it rid them of one large problem. Saruman's power was greatly enhanced in Orthanc, as shown by several quotes I have provided.

    It was impentrable-Gandalf states so, even a Nazgul would have diffculty getting in there, the Ents barely scratched it-who could ever have gotten into it without Saruman's leave?


    Nay, they are one and the same. Pity and justice, like two peas in a pod, so to speak. Isn't justice too influenced by circumstance? As much as pity? You cannot state one is and one isn't, they both entail the same thing-was it pity or justice that let Treebeard release Saruman? Was it just for his pity to move him this act of kindness? Pity is for each person to give, in his own fashion, you cannot criticize Treebeard's decisions born out of pity, when pity is often the tool whereby good comes from, as was the case of Saruman's release from Orthanc. Good came out of it. What if Bilbo had killed Gollum when he had the chance, or Sam and Frodo tied him up or killed him in the Emyn Muil? It may have been a good decision in the short-term, or in their eyes, but pity stayed their hands and out of pity came good and their ultimate victory.

    But was it? We can say that about any situation in Tolkien's world, another circumstance may have come along, but it didn't Tolkien wrote it like he did for a reason.

    Treebeard though Saruman was impotent. He states so to Gandalf.
     
  11. Scatha

    Scatha The dragon of wrath

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    Justice and pity are hardly the same thing, or do I have to quote you the definitions from the dictionary, Inderjit, to prove they are not?


    Treebeard did not have the same priorities as the other living creatures in ME do, which he was aware of. Therefor his action of releasing Saruman, is one decision he should not have made by himself.

    (Plus the fact that 'impotent or not' is hardly an issue, we already know Saruman did not have children. :p )
     
  12. BlackCaptain

    BlackCaptain Vast Menace of Despair

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    Not if your Saruman and have the kind of voice he had... and why would the Ents ONLY be gaurding the border?

    Oh well, we're getting off topic by debating that...

    And what was so bad about making it by himself? If authority belonged to anyone it would be Treebeard because he was the one who destroyed Isengard in the first place. What was even wrong about the decision? Could it have been a better desicon when ends met ends? What could Gandalf have done to possibly have a better outcome.

    The scouring of the Shire was a nescesity. If the Scouring never took place then what would the point of Frodo sacraficing everything be? The quest (Frodo knew) would destroy everything he once knew. He knew he needed to sacrafice his life and his once calm home for Middle Earth. So if Saruman had never Scoured the Shire, where does that esscence go?

    Gandalf could have done nothing more than Treebeard. Treebeard's descicion was a right one, and I can't percieve otherwise.
     
  13. Inderjit S

    Inderjit S Bootylicious

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    I did no say they are the same "thing" they have the same connotation, the reasons for the giving of justice and pity are one and the same.

    Consult others? Gandalf already stated that he would have nothing to do with Saruman. Would anyone else want to get involved? Gandalf states Aragorn would have shown Saruman ‘wisdom and pity’-it seems that Saruman would have remained in Isengard, since they couldn’t remove him from without.

    Also on the meaning of impotent (here’s where I think you should be reaching for your dictionary) it also means powerless. Some constructive criticism please. and
     
  14. Scatha

    Scatha The dragon of wrath

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    Indy, why do you think there is a :p behind that sentence? :rolleyes: I hardly need a dictionary for this language, even though it is not my native one. Ever heard of the term "Joke"?

    Some constructive criticism please and..... and what???

    Yes, consult others. Certainly when knowing your own priorities do not match those of the world around you.

    By your logic here, BC, Frodo would have needed Sauron's permission to wish to throw the ring into the abyss of mount doom.


    Justice is given to someone by somebody in authority, pity however is given by anyone who feels sorry for the situation omebody is in. Where does that have the same connotation?
     
  15. BlackCaptain

    BlackCaptain Vast Menace of Despair

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    First of all, that doesn't follow my logic, and even if it did they are on two completely different and uncomparable stages
     
  16. omnipotent_elf

    omnipotent_elf Omnipotent....mmm....good

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    good, because that is a good reason to keep Saruman imprisoned, so as the prevent even the slightest hope he would return.

    i have to agree with Scatha, thats what it sounded like to me also....

    indeed, treebeard did not consider the ideals of others living in ME. This is elfish, and thus a descision that was not wise for any race, let alone an ent.

    wheres the justice in releasing Saruman go?. Pity is certainly there, but wheres the justice in allowing a creature, who has killed many lives, to go free to join with the faction he was previously involved with. He certaintly met up with them pretty quick....
     
  17. Inderjit S

    Inderjit S Bootylicious

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    Can't say that I have.

    Sorry my computer is a bit doo-lally, it posts certain words again and again for no reason, so bear with me, if you ever see a word that stands alone and makes no sense.

    Just because Ents priorities differ from other people in most cases doesn't mean they differ from them in all cases. Why exactly would their priorities differ from others in the case of Saruman? They wouldn't. The problem would be universal.

    Stop generalising. You contradict yourself. Wasn't Treebeard in a position of authority when he allowed for Saruman to go free? Therefore wasn't he in a authoritative position when he let Saruman go free? So doesn't justice and pity have the same connotation in this system? Or was your semantic paradox intentional?

    So it is good to keep him in Orthanc because he was at his most powerful there? Hm...
    I tell you what prevented him from returning, his death, because Treebeard chose to release him. I don't know what you mean by "return" return to what exactly? If he was released from Orthanc, as he was, he would never return. If he stayed in Orthanc then he would have nothing to return to. Maybe you mean they would know where he was? Well, he could have escaped (Gandalf comments on the many secret underground entrances beneath Orthanc, which would have been free once the waters of the Isen had cleared) or he could have hundreds have years later built up a new following (Tolkien states that Men were apt to turn evil, as indeed happened in the F.A story 'The New Shadow (HoME 12)) because of his glory and reputation, or he may have convinced another, less-wise leader, hundreds of years later to release him.


    Where's the justice in Gandalf doing nothing to Saruman, in Frodo telling the Hobbits not to slay Saruman? Where is the justice in the world? In the hearts of the person that is dealing it out.
     
  18. Scatha

    Scatha The dragon of wrath

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    OK, Indy, so jokes are not spent on you inside a debate.
    (We'll see about outside of them sometimes. ;) )
    Meanwhile i'll be bearing with you if another of those random words pop up. :)


    Saruman had no glory left, but was left with a reputation as a destructor. Hardly and example to gather followers.

    As for convincing a less wise leader of his release:

    *How would he get word to that leader?
    *How would he know the time is right to make the demand?
    *Would he have hundreds of years left in him?

    Fact of the matter of this debate remains, that Treebeard should at least have waited to execute his decision for Gandalf to turn up, or Elessar. With an enemy that had destroyed so many lives and did this amount of harm to the world, the Ent should have consulted others. I'm sure the elves, humans and hobbits would agree with that.

    Regarding the scouring, with Saruman not causing the havoc he did in the Shire, the need for this scouring would not have been this great. It would have been dealt with in a less violent fashion.

    Within Orthanc, Saruman would not have been a threat to Treebeard, nor the surrounding lands for a great deal of time. It certainly would have taken him countless years to ever become a menace again, instead of only a short period of time after the Ent released him. More time to prepare for the eventuality of Saruman's deeds in the future.

    Treebeard's choice to let Saruman go, was premature and only plain luck made the outcome of it a good one. Therefor, even though it turned out right, the decision was still a wrong one.
     
  19. omnipotent_elf

    omnipotent_elf Omnipotent....mmm....good

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    i think you misreed my intention. It was good to keep him IMPRISONED while in orthanc. But to release him is just careless. To allow Saruman to go, to even give him a hope of returning to his former power, was dangerous.

    thus

    but wheres the justice in a selfish descision, one made out of pity rather then for the good of ME?
    Treebeards descision was premature!
     
  20. BlackCaptain

    BlackCaptain Vast Menace of Despair

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    Can you explain why he was careless?
    I keep saying over and over that Saruman was NOT dangerous.

    Here we have the former head of the greatest Maiar ''team'' to step foot on Middle Earth and he takes over the vulnerable and weak halflings (an extremely cowardice act), when he is fully capable of taking over Middle Earth and ruling with an iron fist.

    Yes, I would say he is very dangerous at this point:rolleyes:

    And him taking over the Shire was nesescary for the story, making his escape turn out for the better.