Smaug the last?

Discussion in '"The Hobbit"' started by Snaga, Jan 13, 2002.

  1. Snaga

    Snaga The Usual Suspect

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2002
    Messages:
    2,261
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Home Page:
    Was Smaug the last dragon? Gandalf says if the events in the Hobbit hadn't taken place Sauron would have used Smaug to terrible effect. So weren't there any more that Sauron could use?
     
  2. Lord T

    Lord T Guest

    If i remember correctly Gandalf said that the Rings could be destroyed by dragon fire but that there were none left.
    I dont think anything else about the dragons was mentioned anywhere else so im assuming that he was the last. :(
     

  3. Cian

    Cian sylvan madman

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2001
    Messages:
    532
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Home Page:
    Smaug was not the last Dragon. cheer up :)
     
  4. Ciryaher

    Ciryaher Witch of Resurrection

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2001
    Messages:
    2,207
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    Baltimore, MD, United States
    Home Page:
    Perhaps there are only young 'dragons' (wyverns or drakes?) left in the Withered Heath. No Great Dragons or Wurms, though, I should say.
     

  5. druid

    druid Guest

    Hi all

    Lord T

    If I'm not greatly mistaken Ganadalf says that not even dragons fire could unmake the ring, only the fire from whence it came, ie mount doom

    and i would nearly risk to say that smaug was the last of his kind, but my memory is fussy and my copy of the hobbit not at hand
     
  6. Moonbeams

    Moonbeams Spilling Moonbeams

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2001
    Messages:
    57
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    (still) Other People Problem Solver
    Location:
    Land of a Thousand Islands
    Home Page:
    Well, I never read that all dragons were extinct in ME, and that Smaug was the last.
    Maybe the others were just too far off, too far for Sauron to call them to come and do some damage.
     
  7. Cian

    Cian sylvan madman

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2001
    Messages:
    532
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Home Page:
    :)
     
  8. EverEve

    EverEve Back from a long hiatus

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2002
    Messages:
    770
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Home Page:
    umm....i always thought that smaug wuz the last dragon...didnt gandalf say that? and in the beginning of the fellowship of the rings, sum hobbit said that the only dragon left wuz the green dragon (the pub)
     
  9. Ståle

    Ståle Registered User

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2001
    Messages:
    47
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Norway
    Home Page:
    Actually, at least the Seven could be destroyed by dragonfire(4 of them did), so it's probable that at least the Three and the Nine could be consumed by them.

    Hence, unless Dragons were totally utterly evil, the good guys could have had a great weapon against the Nazgul.
     
  10. Snaga

    Snaga The Usual Suspect

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2002
    Messages:
    2,261
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Home Page:
    As far as dragons and rings go I think that only the One is immune, since it alone was forged in Mt Doom.

    Stale you say

    I think it is a safe bet that all dragons were evil. Didn't Melkor make them? Anyone with a copy of Sil to hand know?

    Even if they were not totally evil, I can't see them wanting to go up against the Nazgul just because they wanted to do good. You'd need a ring of power to control them. Anyway I don't think the Nazgul actually carried their rings around with them - other debates elsewhere seem to conclude S kept them in Barad Dur.
     
  11. druid

    druid Guest

    Well you're right about Melkor creating the dragons and I do get the impression that they are evil being conceived of evil

    just my op thought:)
     
  12. Bucky

    Bucky Registered User

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2001
    Messages:
    1,623
    Likes Received:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Near New Haven
    Home Page:
    >>>If i remember correctly Gandalf said that the Rings could be destroyed by dragon
    fire but that there were none left.

    Gandalf actually says "There is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough".

    So, he doesn't actually say there are no dragons left, but that those left are getting old....


    BTW, what's a 'wyvern'?
    Never heard that one before.
     
  13. Greymantle

    Greymantle Registered User

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2001
    Messages:
    348
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    San Francisco
    In D&D, wyverns are dragon-like in shape, but smaller, barb-tailed and without that pesky fire breath. But I don't know how that translates to Tolkien. :rolleyes:
     
  14. Bucky

    Bucky Registered User

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2001
    Messages:
    1,623
    Likes Received:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Near New Haven
    Home Page:
    I would expect that a few 'Cold Drakes' (wingless Dragon, correct) remain in The Withered Heath, but they're old & not going anywhere.....
     
  15. Cian

    Cian sylvan madman

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2001
    Messages:
    532
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Home Page:
    Tolkien's comment on his own sentence is that it implies that though there are none left of comparable "full primeval" stature, there are still Dragons.

    Dragons had bred since the Old Days notably, and were said to have "multiplied" and became "strong again" at one point in the TA, afflicting the Dwarves (a great cold-drake slew Dáin I and Frór for example). Smaug was said to be the greatest of his contemporaries:

    "... Smaug the Golden, greatest of the dragons of his day ..." Appendix A RotK
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2002
  16. Taranir

    Taranir Registered User

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2002
    Messages:
    17
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Home Page:
    Great dragons

     
  17. Beleg Strongbow

    Beleg Strongbow Superior Elf

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2002
    Messages:
    698
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    Marchwarden and student
    Location:
    Doriath AND Sydney Australia and where ever "SHE"
    Home Page:
    Re: Great dragons

     
  18. Tar-Elenion

    Tar-Elenion Registered User

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2002
    Messages:
    484
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Home Page:
    In Letter 144 JRRT wrote:
     
  19. ssgrif

    ssgrif Sheppard of the forest

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2002
    Messages:
    223
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    Sheppard
    Location:
    Lofty place a few days walk from Amon Sul
    Home Page:
    The Encyclopedia of Arda states that:

    I've looked at the Bibliography section of the site, and most (if not all) of Tolkiens works are used, so can we say that Smaug was indeed the last?
     
  20. Cian

    Cian sylvan madman

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2001
    Messages:
    532
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Home Page:
    I think we can say Smaug was not the last Dragon.

    Tar-Elenion and I have posted a Tolkien quote (I posted part of it twice) that says as much In my opinion :)

    'there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough'. But that implies, I think, that there are still dragons, if not of full primeval stature.' JRRT