The True Villain of the Lord of the Rings

Discussion in '"The Lord of the Rings"' started by HLGStrider, Jun 12, 2005.

?

Who is the true villain?

  1. Sauron

    37.5%
  2. The Ring

    13.9%
  3. Evil as a force, or Melkor

    31.9%
  4. Other

    13.9%
  5. Saruman

    2.8%
  1. Thorondor_

    Thorondor_ Registered User

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    I would agree with Pasteur that a disease mostly occurs when the organism is too weak to defend itself - we are under constant attack from diseases, but at one time, due to one reason or another, we become too weak to defend, and therefore we have a disease.
    I would qualify diseases, suffering and misfortune as a challenge to improve ourselves or our wrong attitudes. Tolkien wrote several times, in both Akallabeth and Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, that is it the wrong attitudes of Men that lead to their shortening of lives. I believe that the reverse is also true.
    This brings our discussion to a very interesting level: is there anything outside Eru, which is not permeated by Him?
     
  2. HLGStrider

    HLGStrider All Knowing Magic Cat

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    Define permeate? I think of Eru as being everywhere, but not being everything, which is what I think you are getting at. Therefore he is within things but at the same time is seperate from things.


    There are better challenges. It is a challenge to survive concentration camp and it is a challenge to survive college, but one challenge is positive, the other is negative.

    It is a challenge to get used to not having a left leg. It is a better challenge to learn to run a half minute mile on two strong legs.

    I think that isn't the only description of disease. There are diseases caused by germs and there are diseases which are caused by genetic dispositions, for instance, which are actually part of us rather than attackers of us.
     

  3. Thorondor_

    Thorondor_ Registered User

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    Hm, Eru has an immanent and a transcendental aspect, so therefore he is somehow separate from things, because creation doesn't fully define him; but I don't see a single part of creation which is separated from him: Ainur, the fire sent to give life to creation, the fear... none. Those manifestations of him may have a certain form and identity, but they don't exist independently of him.

    I can assure you than even surviving through college can be an awesome challenge - I am refferint to the highly demanding japanese educational system, I read that children over there even commit suicide because of this (and it also generates [size=-1]Hikikimori, children becoming autistic).

    I think that those (severe) handicaps (aquired genetically or through injuries) signs of person who has too much of a wrong attitude; the mere existence of such an attitude is an attack on the whole of which we are all part of. Such handicaps reflect a deep-seated moral "cancer", so more extreme measures are needed in order to contain the aggression. Of course, in the case of genetic malformation at birth, I am presuming metempsychosis.
    [/size]
     
  4. Kelendil

    Kelendil Star Lover

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    Anyway, back to the question.

    I think desire for the Ring.
    The ring embodies the evil, it is the source of contamination. Everyone in LOTR who is/has evil has somehow been in contact with it.
    And it is the way that the ring effects those beings that is the true evil. The evil comes from the desire for the ring, so the evil in effect comes from within. And by this I think Tolkien is showing that true evil comes from within, from desire, from lust. All the evil that goes on in our world today stems from desire, whether for power, for land, for control, the list goes on.

    What do you think????
     

  5. Hammersmith

    Hammersmith Irresistible Ork Child

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    I think you're all digging way too deep for no reason whatsoever. We aren't trying to define evil here, we're trying to describe the VILLAIN of Lord of the Rings. A baddie. The nastly guy. Not the Ring, not evil as a presence, not morality. Just a really, really unpleasant chap.
     
  6. HLGStrider

    HLGStrider All Knowing Magic Cat

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    Obviously, then, this system has reached the point where the challenge is no longer a positive thing. I think you just proved my point.

    I think all of it was initiated by Eru, but I think all of it is seperated from him. Creation could exist and Eru would be no less because it is in no way a part of him.
     
  7. Thorondor_

    Thorondor_ Registered User

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    The raw material of anything that is created is Eru or at least is a manifestation of Eru. I really can't see Ea as separated from Eru, (only visually, not essentially); also, think of how limited is a limited-dimension perspective: if you intersect a complex two-dimensional figure with a line, the projection of the initial figure will be apparently separated lines; same with a three-dimensional object: if you intersect it with a geometrical plane, you will see apparently separated two-dimensional figures. The imperishable flame, the initial theme and the valar are just a glove of Eru, it is him who animates and sustains the creation (or, at least, the major evolution of creation), all the time. This is the very reason he said that everyone, even those who are against him, are just instrumental and a part of the whole; he has set in motion a design according to his own will (even if certain parts of creation do manifest what could be labeled as free will - to a certain extent) and he alone is able of altering the evolution of creation, whenever and however he sees fit. For me, even the timeless void is just an aspect of divinity - the unmanifested divinity.
     
  8. ingolmo

    ingolmo The Voidroamer

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    Nice debate going on there, you two, but I feel the need to bring you back onto land now.*Elgee and Thorondor fall back onto earth headfirst from nowhere.*
    To go back to the topic, here's a quote, giving more proof that Morgoth is the true villain.
    That, in my opinion, gives full evidence that Morgoth is the full villain. After all, you have to listen to what Tolkien says. :D
     
  9. Thorondor_

    Thorondor_ Registered User

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    "Full" villain? A rather ambiguous term. He accentuated/expanded/accelerated corruption in Ea; most of us agree that Melkor was the most powerful villain, but whether he is the source of evil or if evil exists independent of him / prior to him, (as a moral choice / a force per se) is still a matter of debate, and that's what we are "mining" here :)
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2005
  10. HLGStrider

    HLGStrider All Knowing Magic Cat

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    OK, I am setting a new rule for debating with Elgee. NO GEOMETRIC ANALOGIES!


    I love analogies, analogies are good, but I really dislike geometry and trying to picture squares when it is a hundred degrees outside is more than I can handle. Scientific analogies, mathmatical figuring analogies, real life analogies, natural analogies, you can do any sort of analogy you want and I'll get along with it, but not GEOMETRY! Please have mercy! No squares, no circles, no lines or parabolas! Please, please, please. . .

    Anyway, where was I?

    I don't see a link between creating something (I admit he created the beginings for everything) and it being part of you. My parents created me, I am not them. I create blankets out of yarn, jewelry out of beads, paintings out of paint (Elgee is now simply showing off that she has more hobbies than the average human being). . .and none of those things are part of me.

    Now, as to whether Arda could exist without Eru, I think it is a moot point as by his nature, I don't think Eru can cease to exist. I think he is eternal. I think he always was and always will be and is incapable of ceasing by his very nature.

    I also think that what you are describing, a plan being set in motion, does not imply that all is part of him. I have often knocked over the first in a string of dominoes without feeling I was part of the set.
     
  11. ingolmo

    ingolmo The Voidroamer

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    You're going off topic Elgee...

    Anyway, to answer your question, I don't think that Arda could have existed without Eru. He created Arda, along with the whole of Ea, so without him, Arda couldn't have been created, and in that way, couldn't have been done evil to by Morgoth, the greatest villain to roam Umbar.

    Which brings me to my original point, that Morgoth is the most powerful, evil and true evil in all of Tolkien's saga. My quote says that '... and will bear dark fuit even unto the latest days.' The latest days refers to the time of LotR, and hence, it is clear that the lies and treachery of Morgoth in the first age, which led to evil ever after, makes Morgoth the true villain.
     
  12. Inderjit S

    Inderjit S Bootylicious

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    I think I would like to give my point of view here too.

    I think that Eru created the Valar as independent beings from himself, or rather they had the potential to diverge from his own views and actions and make their own decisions, or if they wanted to, to blaspheme Eru himself and follow another lord, as many did, or become a dark lord, opposed to Eru, as Melkor did. Some used this "free will" for good-such as Manwë and the other Valar, though the other Valar were not all as "good" or as patient as Manwë, some being more violent, some more proud and some more impetuous. (i.e. Tulkas, Aulë and Oromë.) Manwë himself was not "perfect", or, rather he was not infallible and he made some mistakes- and he feared Melkor. Melkor himself had the free will to use his powers to do good or evil-it was a conscious choice of his own and Eru had bestowed the potential of evil to Melkor by giving him free will, ergo giving him a choice between conflicting ends. (Though Eru gave to each Valar a distinct character, Mandos for example was known to be stern, and Melkor was to a degree proud by nature, though this later turned to arrogance and evil, and he was powerful by nature but this later meant that he desired to be king when he didn't deserve the title.) Evil was not a part of Eru-Eru was perfect and free from evil, and though the Valar were a part of Eru, they were also as a result separate from him and because of their free will they were able to develop independent characteristic from Eru-the very fact that the were fallible shows this.

    But even evil served it's purposes in the History of Arda-from the discords of Melkor the children came to be, and many other natural phenomena and the world was "bettered" because of evil-and Melkor, and thus the triumph of good was achieved, for however evil the act, however hopeless the situation good always triumphed over evil, or sprang out of evil-Melkor thought he had destroyed Gondolin yet he had brung about his own downfall for example.
     
  13. HLGStrider

    HLGStrider All Knowing Magic Cat

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    It's not off topic until the mod says so ;).
     
  14. Thorondor_

    Thorondor_ Registered User

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    Again, you haven't read previous posts: if Eru created evil, (or, moreover , if everything is Eru, as I will try to argue), then we can't attribute evil to a certain part of creation.
    [As a lesser argument, since,
    - as Tolkien writes in HOME 10, that "it was the essential mode of the process of 'history' in Arda that evil should constantly arise";
    - it is being given full credit to the idea that Melkor can change
    Then this implies that evil would have existed even if Melkor would have repented - which reinforces the idea that evil is independent of Melkor, even if Melkor was the most powerful agent of evil.]
    Ok, let's see: according to De Broglie (in 1924!) and first confirmed by Davisson, Germer and Stern, the fact that we perceive the objects around us as separate from each other is merely a consequence of the fact that the greater an object is, the smaller its wavelength is. In fact, every object is a wave - i.e. a mere disturbance that propagates / carries energy and not something that exists in and of itself. A wave on a lake doesn't exist per se, it merely "gives form" (more exactly: assigns probability) to an energy. Nothing exists per se.

    Where does creation start? In Eru's mind. That is the very medium where everything "appears". All that is seen is a mere "disturbance" (and not something actually separate) in the primal medium, which is Eru.

    All beings are merely aspects of Eru, they are various forms of His energy coupled with various levels of His consciousness. When that consciousness is rather "oculted" (or "dorment") then that certain being (aspect of Eru) "believes" that it is separated from Eru, and that it "acts" as such. But this is false. This puts in real light Eru's statement: all those that think that they work against me, actually work for me. Why is that so? Because everything is Eru.
     
  15. HLGStrider

    HLGStrider All Knowing Magic Cat

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    I really don't think so. Can you prove that with book quotes?
     
  16. Thorondor_

    Thorondor_ Registered User

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    Since I want to focus only on parts where we don't agree, which part of my argumentation do you think is unfounded or at odds with Tolkien's perspective?
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2005
  17. Hammersmith

    Hammersmith Irresistible Ork Child

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    You're all off topic. Keep it up and I'll write an essay proving Tom Bombadil to be the evil arch-enemy of everything.
     
  18. HLGStrider

    HLGStrider All Knowing Magic Cat

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    Basically I don't think a pantheistic philosophy fits with Tolkien's image of Middle Earth which was based off Norse Myths rather than Eastern Mythology.
     
  19. Thorondor_

    Thorondor_ Registered User

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    I don't think that there is anything in Tolkiens' view which precludes utter unity of the creation at the subtler level. I wouldn't call my perspective on Ea as pantheistic; pantheism, as far as I understand it, equates God with the creation - and this is not true in Tolkien's case, since Eru existed before the Ainur and Ea. Eru is neither co-substantial with Ea (i.e. He is not restricted to her, but He includes her and transcends her), neither co-eternal with her.
     
  20. ingolmo

    ingolmo The Voidroamer

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    Aargh! Those evil modses!

    True. We are talking about Tolkien's world and his creations, not De Broccoli's philosophy's.

    So Inderjit, what is your point of view? Morgoth is or is not the true villain?

    By the way, everyone, the topic is 'The True Villain of Lord of the Rings' not on Eru, his creations, and his Ainur.