The True Villain of the Lord of the Rings

Discussion in '"The Lord of the Rings"' started by HLGStrider, Jun 12, 2005.

?

Who is the true villain?

  1. Sauron

    40.3%
  2. The Ring

    13.4%
  3. Evil as a force, or Melkor

    29.9%
  4. Other

    14.9%
  5. Saruman

    1.5%
  1. scotsboyuk

    scotsboyuk Vitr Alfr

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    Well I heard my name being mentioned and I thought I might add my own opinion to this discussion ...

    For some reason many of you seem to be over complicating this issue. We are discussing a work of fiction, born of a man's mind. Tolkien created heroes and villains, they aren't always black and white, indeed they are often grey. Nevertheless there are still heroes and villains.

    I'm not sure why some are weaving in complex analagoies or philosophies to explame something that is really very simple. Tolkien's work is about a battle between good and evil. These two forces are personified at different times by different people/things. It doesn;t actually matter what name we choose to give the villain, or the hero for that matter, because they are always the same.

    For me Tolkien's works start out with balance, with harmony. Then we have imbalance and disharmony. One only needs to look to this to see what is good and what is evil. All the other things we label as such stem from this. Now many of you will be thinking that I am suggesting that Melkor is the villain at this point, but you would only be partly correct. It is the imbalance, which Melkor created that I see as being the true villain in Tolkien's works.
     
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  2. Thorondor_

    Thorondor_ Registered User

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    Have you somehow failed to see that evil is mentioned as the possible true villain in the poll? Or is it that you preffer that everyone shuts up once you voiced your opinion on the matter? Well, "forgive" us for trying to get to a deeper understanding of Tolkien's world.
    I dislike it when people are cynical instead of providing a good counterargument; and it seems to me that you are making a habbit out of not reading previous posts before writing. But I will repeat my arguments concerning the fact that the Tolkien universe is panentheistic (i.e. that Ea is "just" a part of Eru - not to be confused with pantheism), nevertheless:
    First of all, Eru created the Ainur from his mind; the music theme that actually sets the rule of creation is his also and he is the only one who can alter the course of Ea, by his own will and for whatever purpose he has; he is also the only source of souls and the primary source of the imperishable flame. (In my opinion at least) the creation can never be truly separated, ontologically speaking, from its primary Cause, as it is from that Cause that the creation gets substance, it is within it where it takes form and it is always sustained by it (and should the creation ever end, it will return to that Cause). Furthermore, we should also remember that Eru states that everyone, even those who are against him, are actually his instrument.
    @scotsboyuk
    I completely agree with you that there are heroes and villains, and that they are good and bad - to a certain extent, i.e. there are always shades of gray. However, I wouldn't qualify imbalance per se as evil; in most cases in mythology, there is a sort of imbalance that triggers the act of creation (or a sort of imbalance that triggers evolution/progress).
     

  3. Hammersmith

    Hammersmith Irresistible Ork Child

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    Thorondor, perhaps you need to create a separate poll (or maybe Elgee, you could split this one?) so that the idea of evil as a valid entity and the blame associated could be discussed fully? As interesting as the debate is, it's become very narrow and shut out what could have become an interesting character debate.
     
  4. HLGStrider

    HLGStrider All Knowing Magic Cat

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    For once I am agreeing. I think we have taken it up a bit much.


    Originally the idea of evil and good did mix in pretty well, but if we are going to get into philosophical makeup, I think it mixes hard if at all.
     

  5. yhwh1st

    yhwh1st Call me Meg :)

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    Oops! I ment to click Melkor but clicked Other instead. I think I may be a little dyslexic. My mind mixes things like that up all the time.

    I think Melkor is the true villain because (to put it bluntly) He started it! Seriously though, the whole reason that this happened was because of the way he sang or made music at "the begining of time" so to speak.
     
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  6. Thorondor_

    Thorondor_ Registered User

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    Well, then I am waiting for you to do that mod magic with the thread :)
     
  7. ingolmo

    ingolmo The Voidroamer

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    Finally, someone with a good amount of common sense. While Thorondor_ and Elgee have used about two or three pages on such a simple matter, it can be put into one line. (And I just skimmed through the philosophical debate and geometrical anology posts, not read them fully.)
     
  8. Mirak Dagan

    Mirak Dagan New Member

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    Eru Illuvatar really is the one who responsible for all of these chaos. All of these Evils came straight outta him, good as well, since, he's the first source who can produce everything in the universe just by Thinking/Desiring it. Anything impossible become possible within his Dream/Thoughts.
     
  9. Azrubêl

    Azrubêl Drúadan

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    After seeing about a dozen of your posts like this, I can confidently say you have one of the most thoroughly inaccurate perspectives on Tolkien that I have ever seen.
     
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  10. Mirak Dagan

    Mirak Dagan New Member

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    Well, that just one of my thoughts. And since, I'm an Atheist, my perspective are quite different than most of Tolkien fans, thus, I'm fine if people criticise mine.
     
  11. Azrubêl

    Azrubêl Drúadan

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    I mean it doesn't really have anything to do with your own spiritual beliefs. It's a dramatic misunderstanding of Tolkien's mythology to say that Ilúvatar is a villain and that any evil came from him. This contradicts the Ainulindalë and, as a result, the basic mechanics of Tolkien's world.
     
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  12. Mirak Dagan

    Mirak Dagan New Member

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    It's only a misunderstanding in your own perspective, logic and point of view. Everything on Arda happens for a reason and that reason is within Iluvatar's head, who knows it better than him. Besides, It's just my thought/opinion on it. Who are you to say it's a dramatic misunderstanding and such. It mainly depends on how you see things in real life. You see it your way, I see it my way.
     
  13. Azrubêl

    Azrubêl Drúadan

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    "Your way" is an objectively wrong interpretation of Tolkien because it leads to condradiction within the mythology. Ilúvatar is the origin of all things, and evil comes into existence for the first time when Melkor causes dissonance within the music, for the reasons described in the Ainulindalë. Evil did not exist before Melkor's Discord allowed it to enter. Therefore, it is not possible that Ilùvatar was the source of the evil.
     
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  14. Mirak Dagan

    Mirak Dagan New Member

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    Iluvatar created Melkor exactly for that purpose, you should've know it already if you read it correctly. Both Good and Evil came deep from his thoughts, he was the one who came before everything. He could've created/designed Melkor to be good like the other Valar but he didn't for the purpose he himself only knew. His creations, they all played their parts against each other in the Music. That's why there're Good side and Evil side and they always clashing against each other.
     
  15. EcthelionL

    EcthelionL Away with the Eldar...

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    My opinion is that the Children of Iluvatar (Elves, Men and Ainur) have free will and are responsible for their own actions. Yes, Iluvatar gave them desires and characters but it's up to the individual how they respond to this. Melkor could have overcome his greed for power and instead served Iluvatar but, alas, it wasn't to be.

    That being said, Iluvatar created 'evil' thoughts or desires but it is up to us (and Ainur such as Melkor) how we respond to them. So I agree with Azrubel that Iluvatar is not responsible for evil - Melkor (or Morgoth) is.
     
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  16. Azrubêl

    Azrubêl Drúadan

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    Ilúvatar created Melkor for his glory, to participate in his creation. Melkor, like all beings, had free will, and Melkor chose to allow evil to enter. Ilúvatar may have known that Melkor would cause evil, but he did not create Melkor in order for evil to enter. In Tolkien's world, the One is pure and of one will, and each being in his creation has its own free will.

    Ilúvatar is also the primordial creative force that creates the incarnate world, but he does not make slaves. The actions of his creation are their own.
     
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  17. EcthelionL

    EcthelionL Away with the Eldar...

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    Just to add - I can see where Marak is coming from but I think it's a misunderstanding. When Iluvatar says that even Melkor's theme is for the glory of Iluvatar (or words to that effect) He means that evil deeds will result in good. The examples in Ainulindale are clouds and frost but other examples would be pity, heroic deeds, mercy etc all of which are the result of evil.

    Iluvatar never intended for evil to enter the world but, as it has, he uses it to create good.
     
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  18. Mirak Dagan

    Mirak Dagan New Member

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    I see yours but I'll stick with my interpretation.

    Like I've said before, you have your point of view, I have my. Thus, it's meaningless to argue against each other. I'll leave it at that.

    Point well made. Still, it could goes both ways.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 21, 2017
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  19. Azrubêl

    Azrubêl Drúadan

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    It cannot go both ways, as your way is self-contradictory. However, you are free to think that.
     
  20. Mirak Dagan

    Mirak Dagan New Member

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    It certainly can go both ways, as it is a point he made regarding my opinion. An opinion doesn't equal self-contradictory or a fact. And of course, I can.