The "WHAT IF...?" game

Discussion in '"The Lord of the Rings"' started by Lhunithiliel, Sep 10, 2002.

  1. Illuin

    Illuin Fire On The Mountain

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    I don't know CoE. Granted, the Númenórean navy was very impressive considering they scared Sauron stiff - and he had to implement plan B. But those gullible West-folk would have been a feast for the buzzards after the Eldar got finished with them. The Elves were a bunch of haughty snoots, but could tear it up when they were ticked off. Everyone forgets that it was the Eldar of Aman that pummeled Morgoth's entire Front (including the Air Force) in the War of Wrath. So I think the largest single-day amphibious invasion in the history of Arda would have gone very badly for the King's Men from Starwards no matter how it went down.
     
  2. childoferu

    childoferu Registered User

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    Well Illuin, I did say I'm Numenorean-biased, but besides that, think about it: you think the elves of Eldamar trained in the weapons of war from day-to-day? No. They were praising and singing and building ships and writing and running through the gardens and etc. Numenoreans, on the other hand, were much a military culture I believe and were great in the crafting the weapons and ships. And you say it was the Eldar of Aman that pummeled Morgoth's entire front, and I say that couldn't have been if the Valar were not with them, especially Eonwe. You know Illuin, now that I think about it, I'm starting to think of the title of a new thread....:rolleyes:
     

  3. Illuin

    Illuin Fire On The Mountain

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    Eönwë was a Maia. And I'm in the corner of those who do not think the Valar actually participated in combat. The army is never referred to as Valar, but rather as the host of the Valar. There is some evidence given in the 'Istari' chapter of Unfinished Tales:

    Also, it is Eönwë (Maiar); the Herald of Manwë, who is appointed guardian of the Silmarils, not one of the Valar. This is a contested subject but now you know where I stand. :D
     
  4. Withywindle

    Withywindle Registered User

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    I would assume the Valar and Maiar would not and could not intervene, which is presumably why they passed the buck to Illuvatar in the first place. Obviously one big tsunami from Ulmo would have wiped out the Armada at a stroke, but presumably Ulmo could not have raised his hand against the Second born children of Eru, even to save the First Born.

    A straight fight between the Eldar of Valinor and the Numenoreans would have been a Rumble in the Jungle and no mistake. On the one hand Ar-Pharazon's army had already seen off Sauron's forces by sheer intimidation, and we're talking about forces Sauron had been assembling for over a thousand years, drawing on almost all of western ME and being driven and controlled by the Ring: the Numenorean force sent to Valinor was even bigger than that one so we're talking about a truly overwhelming army.

    On the other hand the Noldor and the Vanyar were a powerful lot (I wouldn't expect much from the Teleri). When the Noldor arrived in ME to make war on Morgoth they also came straight from "running through gardens" (lol) poetry reading and various other nancy-boy activities and within 5 minutes were tearing through Balrogs! And we might assume that Fingolfin, Finrod, Fingon and Turgon were back in Valinor by that time. It would have been a hell of a battle all right, and I wouldn't like to call the result.
     

  5. Starbrow

    Starbrow Tolkien Fan

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    I think that one reason that Sauron was so intimidated by the Numenoreans was the technologic superiority of their forces. The Numemoreans were far more advanced than Sauron and his allies and didn't have the weapons to defeat them.

    But when Ar-Pharazon went to the Undying Lands, he was facing a people who were more advanced than the Numenoreans. Once they left the ships, I think they would have been defeated by the elves.
     
  6. childoferu

    childoferu Registered User

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    Why can't we assume that the Numenoreans took the technology that the elves gave them and made it better for themselves...maybe, and if not the technology, then certainly the numbers
     
  7. Illuin

    Illuin Fire On The Mountain

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    They didn't have the experience or intellect. Anything Men did, the Elves could do better if they chose. I'm not a big fan of the snooty Elves either, but they had Men beat in every possible area and every possible way. Many of the Elves in Aman had been alive for nearly 15,000 years. I'm willing to bet they could have perfected a bow, sword, or ship in that amount of time. Think about it, if you were 12,000 years old, and some 120 year old dude came to you and said: 'Hey, I got this great idea for a bow.' It would be like a 2 year old discovering that the fireplace was hot; and being proud of himself because he's discovered something new, 'counsels' his father not to go near it.
     
  8. childoferu

    childoferu Registered User

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    Hmm, should we move on to another What-If......?
     
  9. Firawyn

    Firawyn Verbatim et litteratim.

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    Okay, so this might be a little unusual...

    But what if the only Tolkien works ever published were the ones he published himself.

    So, if only Hobbit and LotR were the only books by Tolkien any of us had ever read...do you think that the Tolkien fan base would be as large? Why or why not?
     
  10. Withywindle

    Withywindle Registered User

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    There´s no question that the LotR is the masterwork. It is the greatest narrative creation of all time whose power to move the emotions, inspire the imagination, and heighten the senses is without rival in all of fiction.

    It is the LotR which makes us fall in love with ME; as you know, together with all the members of this forum, this is an obsessive kind of love, and that obsession craves anything and everything else that we are offered which makes us feel closer to ME, but the obsession always starts with the LotR.

    Certainly, The Silmarillion and HoME etc. feed our love and help sustain our obsession: they give us an endless stream of trivia to ponder about in this forum for one thing. In that sense, Tolkien fandom might have been more of a private experience had we only the LotR to read; there would have been less to share with other fans.

    But I don't think there would have been fewer fans if these other texts had never been published. Nor do I think the chief influences of ME on our own world would have been different: the effect on the Hippie movement and in turn its effect on all of posterity such as an increased love of nature, especially forests; a changed concept of mythical beings such as elves and dwarfs etc.
     
  11. childoferu

    childoferu Registered User

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    I don't know about the size of the fanbase, but we definitely would have been a fustrated lot, every fantasy or sci-fi epic has to have HISTORY, you name it, star wars, star trek, comics, everything has to have its history, and the bulk of the history behind LoTR comes with HoME and the Sil
     
  12. Stockholm

    Stockholm Dream walker

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    Great thread, why was it abandonned ?

    So what if Celebrimbor had seen through Sauron's game and had therefore never made the Rings ? (Yes, I do have a thing for the House of Fëanor)

    My guess is that Sauron might have tried smithing a Ring of his own anyway. Then try to take over Middle-Earth in pretty much the same way he did at the end of the Second Age...
    Of course there would have been no Ring for Isildur to cut off his hand, and the question is : would he have been defeated then ? And how would he have gone back to full power ? Maybe that would've been slower, but his power wouldn't have been destructed either, so... What do you think ?
     
  13. childoferu

    childoferu Registered User

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    Not abandoned, many have just become inactive for some reason or another, but we all come back from time to time, as for your what if, it kind of depends on celebrimbor's actions after discovering Sauron's plan, but yea, Sauron would have ultimately been defeated in any occurence
     
  14. Erestor Arcamen

    Erestor Arcamen Archivist Staff Member

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    What if?

    Ok so here's my what if. I know Aman was removed and only the straight road was left for the elves in their ships (correct me if I'm wrong), but what do you think would have happened if Sauron had gotten his ring back. I mean I know it says all that about a second darkness and enslavement of all the free peoples of Middle Earth and blah blah blah but what would his next step be? Would he have built up his orc and easterling armies into the millions? He wouldn't be able to get to Aman so would he just sit there, in Mordor, with the rest of Middle Earth at his disposal, ruling everybody with nothing left to do or would he try to find a way to Aman and try to battle them, if he would even have a chance at all, and possibly free Morgoth from the outer void? Or had he forgotten about his former master all together and had his own motives for ruling Middle Earth? And I don't believe it was simply power, I mean of course he wanted the power and authority over all of ME's people, but what would be next?
     
  15. YayGollum

    YayGollum Conscience of TTF

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    I merged this with the old What If thingy. Anyways, first of all, it would probably take Sauron quite a while to have all of Middle Earth under his control. Check out how long Mel was taking, and he was much cooler (because that matters?) and far more powerful. Of course, Sauron would mostly be up against boring humans, and check out how easily he claimed Numenor. Heh. :D Argh. I liked the other smilie thingies. oh well. Either way, once he finally does take the place over, I figure that, since he's immortal and plenty patient, he could handle living there for a while. Mayhaps he'd conquer the Dark Lands before checking Valinor out. And, while the path to paradise was made just for elves, I muchly doubt that Ainur wouldn't be able to get there, too. All Sauron would have to do is turn everyone in Middle Earth into vampires, then fly the army over. Alternatively, keep a few elves on hand to direct giant boats filled with Orcs. What, would the path suddenly whisk the crow's nest away and leave the rest of the ship to find the eastern shore of Middle Earth?
     
  16. Bucky

    Bucky Registered User

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    I must say that I loathe speculation in Middle-earth as much or more as Tolkien (said) he loathed allegory, but here goes with the facts:

    Where in the Second or Third Age is a Vampire ever even mentioned? They, as opposed to werewolves, seem to belong solely to the First Age.

    Secondly, and most importantly, Tolkien says in one of his letters or in Morgoth's Ring, that in the Third Age, Sauron claimed to be Morgoth returned.
    The LAST thing Sauron would've wanted was the REAL Morgoth returning and himself being demoted to
    Vice-Dark Lord. :cool:
     
  17. YayGollum

    YayGollum Conscience of TTF

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    Why loathe speculation? It's fun. Sure, that Tolkien dude wouldn't agree with plenty of the crazy ideas that people come up with, but it's just an exercise. Not nearly as bad as taking hold of some author's characters and plots and breathing your own unholy life into them. Anyways, I don't remember vampires being mentioned. Mayhaps they were, and mayhaps they weren't. I wouldn't be surprised either way, though, to see that some still existed. Why not? They weren't written of as some gigantic as well as terrifying threat, so they didn't get anything written about their extermination. And towards what you figure to be more important, sure, I'd agree that Sauron doesn't seem to be the likeliest candidate for bringing Mel back, but that was merely one of the reasons suggested for why he'd be in Valinor.
     
  18. Erestor Arcamen

    Erestor Arcamen Archivist Staff Member

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    Thuringwethil was a vampire woman who when killed, Luthien took her hide as her disguise when Luthien entered Angband.
     
  19. Bucky

    Bucky Registered User

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    Well, whatever.
    I've just seen - not so much here but on that other more popular site folks go off on the wildest therories despite what Tolkien clearly writes and then they say "Well this is what it means to me." regardless of contrary evidence presented right out of Tolkien's words. Very fustrating to see Tolkien's own words twisted to fit somebody's own agenda.
    But, there seems to be a an awful lot of that in society everywhere these days where folk's think there is no absolute truth but their own.......


    As for vampires past the First Age, here's why not IN MY OPINION (LOL):

    Tolkien lists what servants Sauron has in his talk with Frodo on his bedside in Rivendell after recovering from his Morgul wound:

    "All his servants are not chattels and wraiths. There are Orcs and Trolls, there are Wargs & Werewolves; and there are and have been and still are many Men, warriors and kings, that walk alive under the sun, and yet are under his sway...."

    Werewolves are definitely mentioned, while vampires are not.

    That gives me the impression that the only vampires mentioned, are in The Silmarillion - if you are (gasp!) to read the text as I just did - both Sauron 'in the form of a vampire' & Thuringwethil who 'was wont to fly in vampire's form to Angband' would certainly seem to indicate Maiar of a greater or lesser degree that could shift shape as opposed to a breed of 'evil beast' called vampires like werewolves.

    So, since the only Maiar that are specifically mentioned as remaining in the Third Age are Durin's Bane, a Balrog which all seemed to stay in Balrog form and Sauron, who after the Downfall of Numenor lost the ability to appear fair (and wrought for himself the shape of the black, one-eyed Dark Lord in which he remained ever after), it seems likely Sauron also had no ability to shift-shape any longer. Heck, it took him 1050 years just to begin to take the shape of the Dark Lord again, so I don't think hwe was shifting into a vampire or were-wolf at will any longer.

    At least that's my kooky theory - based on the texts of course. :cool::
     
  20. Stockholm

    Stockholm Dream walker

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    Funny, I always understood this « vampire Sauron » thing as « looking like an oversized, scary and many-toothed bat ». Like this, but bigger. I didn't understand it in a Dracula-orientated way.