Translation from english to quenya: «Me and you»

Discussion in 'The Languages of Middle-earth' started by sinkjo, Jan 8, 2018.

  1. sinkjo

    sinkjo New Member

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    Hello!

    I need a translation for this senctence:

    «Me and you»


    After some searching my suggestion is this:

    «Amin ar´ lle»


    But I don´t know if this is correct. I also need to find out the elvish symbols/writing for this sentence, where can I find this?


    One can´t simply translate a sentence into elvish online. :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2018
  2. Galin

    Galin Registered User

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    Hi!

    Your example above looks like something called Grey Company Elvish. Grey Company lifts enough vocabulary from Tolkien to confuse plenty of folks just getting into JRRT's languages.

    Anyway, for Neo-quenya I would guess (by the way this seemingly simple construction is not that simple, but I'm not going to delve deep into all the problems or variations that could be raised), maybe...

    tye ar nye *you and me (using the familiar form of "you" here. In any early-ish example Tolkien used tye for the expression "I love thee" between father and son). Some think ni can be used for the object "me", just to note this without going into detail about this pronoun in general).

    Or: if the pronouns here represent spouses (my spouse and me) for example, maybe use yo "and" instead of ar)

    Or: maybe one word (if not exactly what you asked for obviously)...

    met "the two of us" (exclusive plural with dual ending)

    Also I switched your pronouns in the English, only because Strunk and White (apparently) say it's polite form to put (object pronoun) "me" second.

    friendly word of warning: I only dabble in Tolkien's invented languages. I'm no expert and not a linguist. And following Tolkien's often changing mind can be difficult.

    How's that for inspiring confidence in this post. LOL! :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2018
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  3. sinkjo

    sinkjo New Member

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    This was VERY helpful! I am overwhelmed, thank you so much! :)

    I can give you some short backstory here: I´m getting married in june, and in our relationship the phrase "Me and you" has become somewhat of a saying, in that order of pronouns. It´s like our own little motto. So we want this phrase to be written in our wedding rings. Therefore I need help from helpful intelligences like yourself! Amazing.

    So yes, it represents me and my spouse. If I understand the information you have given me correctly:

    "Me and you"

    becomes:

    "Nye yo tye"


    Could this be right?


    PS: "Met" was a beautiful suggestion, I might want to use it anyways in the wedding. :)
     
  4. Galin

    Galin Registered User

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    Congratulations! Although suddenly I fear to give you the wrong advice, given that this is going on wedding rings!

    About yo, I should probably add:

    Tolkien wrote a long and somewhat complicated explanation of Quenya ar ("and") in notes now called Words, Phrases and Passages (WPP), which included: "(...) 1. yo, a reduced form (...): this was often used between two items (of any part of speech) that were by nature and custom closely associated, but were not "pairs" (as e.g. were hands, feet, eyes, etc.). These might be names of persons: as Beren and Luthien, Manwe yo Varda; or of things as sword and sheath, bow and arrows..."

    The explanation goes on, but you can see that I'm guessing yo can properly be used when a married couple is involved, even when (as in your request of course) we have pronouns rather than names. Also I'm going to change my mind a bit and recommend ni rather (before the other form at least), as after checking WPP again I find:

    "Q ni, I/me, dative nin." JRRT, Words, Phrases and Passages, Parma Eldalamberon 17. And dative nin "to/for me" is attested in Galadriel's lament Namárie. So maybe Neo-quenya...

    ni yo tye

    Appendix E notes: "TY represents a sound similar to the t in English tune. It was derived mainly from c or t + y. The sound of English ch, which was frequent in Westron, was usually substituted for it by speakers of that language."

    In Quenya the pronouns are often suffixes, like in hiruvalye, which breaks up as hir-uva-lye "find wilt thou", but we do have some attested pronouns that aren't suffixed.

    Anyway, it seems you have some time (or hopefully you do anyway), to check my ramblings against other opinions.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2018

  5. sinkjo

    sinkjo New Member

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    Thank you so much again!

    I think "ni yo tye" makes absolute sense based on everything you´ve said And even though it´s going in our wedding rings, it´s not a crisis if it´s not 100 % correct formal-version as so on, as long as the words are correct.

    My next question is: we want this sentence in elvish writing/symbols. How do I go about this? I´ve found a lot automatic translators online, but I belive this often is from english. What kind of writing does Neo-quenya go about, and where can I find a dictionary for this kind of stuff?


    Your help is very much appreciated Galin!!!
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
  6. Galin

    Galin Registered User

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    I can describe things with the help of the website Amanye Tenceli. If you want to try this path, using the first link below, look up the number (with Quenya name) of the tengwa to see its shape. And I'll try to describe the vowel marks. I'm using what's called the Classical Mode here:

    17 númen -- vowel above: one dot (meaning put one dot above this consonant) (ni)

    23 anna -- two dots beneath/ vowel above: a curl "open to the right" (yo)

    1 tinco -- two dots "below" (see the second link)/ vowel above: an "acute accent" (tye)

    link http://at.mansbjorkman.net/teng_names.htm

    If you go to my next linked page you can see tinco with its "under dots" (ty), in the section headed consonant modifications -- palatalized consonants. Conveniently, anna with the two under dots is right next to it. Basically you'll see y, ty, ly here.

    And just below that section you can see the vowels that I tried to describe. You don't have any long vowels, and you don't need any carriers in your example since the vowels go above the preceding consonant in this mode (intentional for a language with words that often end in a vowel, like Quenya).

    link http://at.mansbjorkman.net/teng_quenya.htm

    You probably know this, but if you are unsure about the Quenya you can write "me and you" using the Elvish characters (using a different mode). It will still look Elvish, but will be read as English of course.


    Anyway, I think my suggestions might be... correct enough... maybe? LOL! I'd wait a bit and get more opinions if possible, here or at other sites.


    These letters are just the basic shapes, and of course you can get creative with font or style (different examples can be found all over the web). The "flowing" style on the One Ring is popular, although I'm not sure you want a wedding ring that echoes Sauron's choice for his Black Speech on the One!

    ;)


    nai elen atta siluvat aurenna veryanwesto Tolkien wrote this, which some folks confidently translate as *'May two stars shine upon the day of your wedding'.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
  7. sinkjo

    sinkjo New Member

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    Thank you again! I´m trying hardt to put it together with dots and stuff. Feeling like a graphic designer. ^^

    Amazing quote by Tolkien, thank you! :) :) :)
     
  8. Galin

    Galin Registered User

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    I wish I could just show you my suggestion, sinkyo, here in the thread, but I don't know how to do such techno-magic!

    The numbers above are the same as in the tengwar chart in Appendix E, The Return of the King.

    17 kinda looks like a Roman m
    23 kinda looks like a Roman u
    1 kinda looks like a Roman p

    If that helps :D
     
  9. sinkjo

    sinkjo New Member

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    Everything helps indeed!

    How would this look by the way? :)
     
  10. Galin

    Galin Registered User

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    For English "me and you" I would say (using a mode called "general use" and using orthographic spelling):

    18 -- vowel above > a dash (looks like an acute accent) me

    5
    -- with a "bar" on top (the bar looks like a Spanish "tilde") -- this is a shorthand form, nd, then, I think, add a dot as explained in the note below.

    23 and 22 -- vowel on top of 22 > curl (open to the right) y+ou


    ____________________
    note on
    and: In the Appendix on writing and spelling, Tolkien, referring to the Elvish script on the title-page, explains: "It may be noted that a dot below (one of the uses of which was to represent weak obscure vowels) is here employed in the representation of unstressed and, but is also used in here for silent final e;..."

    So... umm... anyway, the version with the dot on the title-page represents the word and in the following (again, JRRT using the Elvish script of course): "Herein is set forth the history of the War of the Ring and the return of the King as seen by the hobbits". Back over at Amanye Tenceli, if you go to Mode, then to General Use and English, then scroll down a bit, you can see the shorthand forms for both ands, so to speak, almost at the bottom of the page.
    ____________________

    Again, hopefully that's correct! I noticed that Amanye Tenceli used the acute accent/dash to represent the vowel in "he" -- in the orthographic example at the bottom of the page -- so I echoed that for "me".

    Generally speaking, there are also modes which use tengwar for vowels. Your request seems short enough (even for a ring) if you prefer a fuller mode. You can find examples -- to see if you like the look -- once again, at Amanye Tenceli. Check out the bottom of this (linked) page, for example.

    http://at.mansbjorkman.net/teng_later.htm


    :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2018 at 5:39 PM

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