Translation from english to quenya: «Me and you»

Discussion in 'The Languages of Middle-earth' started by sinkjo, Jan 8, 2018.

  1. sinkjo

    sinkjo New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2018
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Norway
    Hello!

    I need a translation for this senctence:

    «Me and you»


    After some searching my suggestion is this:

    «Amin ar´ lle»


    But I don´t know if this is correct. I also need to find out the elvish symbols/writing for this sentence, where can I find this?


    One can´t simply translate a sentence into elvish online. :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2018
  2. Galin

    Galin Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2004
    Messages:
    732
    Likes Received:
    199
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Hi!

    Your example above looks like something called Grey Company Elvish. Grey Company lifts enough vocabulary from Tolkien to confuse plenty of folks just getting into JRRT's languages.

    Anyway, for Neo-quenya I would guess (by the way this seemingly simple construction is not that simple, but I'm not going to delve deep into all the problems or variations that could be raised), maybe...

    tye ar nye *you and me (using the familiar form of "you" here. In any early-ish example Tolkien used tye for the expression "I love thee" between father and son). Some think ni can be used for the object "me", just to note this without going into detail about this pronoun in general).

    Or: if the pronouns here represent spouses (my spouse and me) for example, maybe use yo "and" instead of ar)

    Or: maybe one word (if not exactly what you asked for obviously)...

    met "the two of us" (exclusive plural with dual ending)

    Also I switched your pronouns in the English, only because Strunk and White (apparently) say it's polite form to put (object pronoun) "me" second.

    friendly word of warning: I only dabble in Tolkien's invented languages. I'm no expert and not a linguist. And following Tolkien's often changing mind can be difficult.

    How's that for inspiring confidence in this post. LOL! :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2018
    Yalerd likes this.

  3. sinkjo

    sinkjo New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2018
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Norway
    This was VERY helpful! I am overwhelmed, thank you so much! :)

    I can give you some short backstory here: I´m getting married in june, and in our relationship the phrase "Me and you" has become somewhat of a saying, in that order of pronouns. It´s like our own little motto. So we want this phrase to be written in our wedding rings. Therefore I need help from helpful intelligences like yourself! Amazing.

    So yes, it represents me and my spouse. If I understand the information you have given me correctly:

    "Me and you"

    becomes:

    "Nye yo tye"


    Could this be right?


    PS: "Met" was a beautiful suggestion, I might want to use it anyways in the wedding. :)
     
  4. Galin

    Galin Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2004
    Messages:
    732
    Likes Received:
    199
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Congratulations! Although suddenly I fear to give you the wrong advice, given that this is going on wedding rings!

    About yo, I should probably add:

    Tolkien wrote a long and somewhat complicated explanation of Quenya ar ("and") in notes now called Words, Phrases and Passages (WPP), which included: "(...) 1. yo, a reduced form (...): this was often used between two items (of any part of speech) that were by nature and custom closely associated, but were not "pairs" (as e.g. were hands, feet, eyes, etc.). These might be names of persons: as Beren and Luthien, Manwe yo Varda; or of things as sword and sheath, bow and arrows..."

    The explanation goes on, but you can see that I'm guessing yo can properly be used when a married couple is involved, even when (as in your request of course) we have pronouns rather than names. Also I'm going to change my mind a bit and recommend ni rather (before the other form at least), as after checking WPP again I find:

    "Q ni, I/me, dative nin." JRRT, Words, Phrases and Passages, Parma Eldalamberon 17. And dative nin "to/for me" is attested in Galadriel's lament Namárie. So maybe Neo-quenya...

    ni yo tye

    Appendix E notes: "TY represents a sound similar to the t in English tune. It was derived mainly from c or t + y. The sound of English ch, which was frequent in Westron, was usually substituted for it by speakers of that language."

    In Quenya the pronouns are often suffixes, like in hiruvalye, which breaks up as hir-uva-lye "find wilt thou", but we do have some attested pronouns that aren't suffixed.

    Anyway, it seems you have some time (or hopefully you do anyway), to check my ramblings against other opinions.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2018

  5. sinkjo

    sinkjo New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2018
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Norway
    Thank you so much again!

    I think "ni yo tye" makes absolute sense based on everything you´ve said And even though it´s going in our wedding rings, it´s not a crisis if it´s not 100 % correct formal-version as so on, as long as the words are correct.

    My next question is: we want this sentence in elvish writing/symbols. How do I go about this? I´ve found a lot automatic translators online, but I belive this often is from english. What kind of writing does Neo-quenya go about, and where can I find a dictionary for this kind of stuff?


    Your help is very much appreciated Galin!!!
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
  6. Galin

    Galin Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2004
    Messages:
    732
    Likes Received:
    199
    Trophy Points:
    43
    I can describe things with the help of the website Amanye Tenceli. If you want to try this path, using the first link below, look up the number (with Quenya name) of the tengwa to see its shape. And I'll try to describe the vowel marks. I'm using what's called the Classical Mode here:

    17 númen -- vowel above: one dot (meaning put one dot above this consonant) (ni)

    23 anna -- two dots beneath/ vowel above: a curl "open to the right" (yo)

    1 tinco -- two dots "below" (see the second link)/ vowel above: an "acute accent" (tye)

    link http://at.mansbjorkman.net/teng_names.htm

    If you go to my next linked page you can see tinco with its "under dots" (ty), in the section headed consonant modifications -- palatalized consonants. Conveniently, anna with the two under dots is right next to it. Basically you'll see y, ty, ly here.

    And just below that section you can see the vowels that I tried to describe. You don't have any long vowels, and you don't need any carriers in your example since the vowels go above the preceding consonant in this mode (intentional for a language with words that often end in a vowel, like Quenya).

    link http://at.mansbjorkman.net/teng_quenya.htm

    You probably know this, but if you are unsure about the Quenya you can write "me and you" using the Elvish characters (using a different mode). It will still look Elvish, but will be read as English of course.


    Anyway, I think my suggestions might be... correct enough... maybe? LOL! I'd wait a bit and get more opinions if possible, here or at other sites.


    These letters are just the basic shapes, and of course you can get creative with font or style (different examples can be found all over the web). The "flowing" style on the One Ring is popular, although I'm not sure you want a wedding ring that echoes Sauron's choice for his Black Speech on the One!

    ;)


    nai elen atta siluvat aurenna veryanwesto Tolkien wrote this, which some folks confidently translate as *'May two stars shine upon the day of your wedding'.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
  7. sinkjo

    sinkjo New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2018
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Norway
    Thank you again! I´m trying hardt to put it together with dots and stuff. Feeling like a graphic designer. ^^

    Amazing quote by Tolkien, thank you! :) :) :)
     
  8. Galin

    Galin Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2004
    Messages:
    732
    Likes Received:
    199
    Trophy Points:
    43
    I wish I could just show you my suggestion, sinkyo, here in the thread, but I don't know how to do such techno-magic!

    The numbers above are the same as in the tengwar chart in Appendix E, The Return of the King.

    17 kinda looks like a Roman m
    23 kinda looks like a Roman u
    1 kinda looks like a Roman p

    If that helps :D
     
  9. sinkjo

    sinkjo New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2018
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Norway
    Everything helps indeed!

    How would this look by the way? :)
     
  10. Galin

    Galin Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2004
    Messages:
    732
    Likes Received:
    199
    Trophy Points:
    43
    For English "me and you" I would say (using a mode called "general use" and using orthographic spelling):

    18 -- vowel above > a dash (looks like an acute accent) me

    5
    -- with a "bar" on top (the bar looks like a Spanish "tilde") -- this is a shorthand form, nd, then, I think, add a dot as explained in the note below.

    23 and 22 -- vowel on top of 22 > curl (open to the right) y+ou


    ____________________
    note on
    and: In the Appendix on writing and spelling, Tolkien, referring to the Elvish script on the title-page, explains: "It may be noted that a dot below (one of the uses of which was to represent weak obscure vowels) is here employed in the representation of unstressed and, but is also used in here for silent final e;..."

    So... umm... anyway, the version with the dot on the title-page represents the word and in the following (again, JRRT using the Elvish script of course): "Herein is set forth the history of the War of the Ring and the return of the King as seen by the hobbits". Back over at Amanye Tenceli, if you go to Mode, then to General Use and English, then scroll down a bit, you can see the shorthand forms for both ands, so to speak, almost at the bottom of the page.
    ____________________

    Again, hopefully that's correct! I noticed that Amanye Tenceli used the acute accent/dash to represent the vowel in "he" -- in the orthographic example at the bottom of the page -- so I echoed that for "me".

    Generally speaking, there are also modes which use tengwar for vowels. Your request seems short enough (even for a ring) if you prefer a fuller mode. You can find examples -- to see if you like the look -- once again, at Amanye Tenceli. Check out the bottom of this (linked) page, for example.

    http://at.mansbjorkman.net/teng_later.htm


    :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2018
  11. sinkjo

    sinkjo New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2018
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Norway
    Hi again Galin!
    Thanks so much for your help!

    I was wondering a little bit about this example. Is this written somewhere by Tolkien? How do I find the elvish writings for it?
     
  12. Galin

    Galin Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2004
    Messages:
    732
    Likes Received:
    199
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Argh! Yes met is attested by JRRT (even in Elvish writing), but I'm not sure what I was thinking earlier, sinkjo...

    ... as I think you would want (well, see below) the inclusive dual rather, which at the moment I'm not sure is attested by JRRT, but I'll give a look at the sources I have anyway.

    Sorry for the confusion!
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
  13. sinkjo

    sinkjo New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2018
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Norway
    Not sure I understand.

    I feel that "The two of us" is a beautiful translation of the phrase I want, so I think I´m interested in using "met" in the rings. :). But I don´t quite understand what you mean with inclusive? I´m not so good in linguistical terms in english.
     
  14. Galin

    Galin Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2004
    Messages:
    732
    Likes Received:
    199
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Just looked up imbe met "between us two" in both RGEO and WPP:

    Frodo is listening to Galadriel, but her met "us two" -- in her song -- refers to Varda and Galadriel, and excludes Frodo the listener. And WPP confirms this, adding that met is "exclusive of those addressed" that is "us twain (Varda and Me)"

    So... erm... ahh :confused:
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
  15. sinkjo

    sinkjo New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2018
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Norway
    But is she singing to Frodo in this song? In our case it would be prefered that the person I´m referring to is the person I´m talking to, in other words by betrothed.
     
  16. Galin

    Galin Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2004
    Messages:
    732
    Likes Received:
    199
    Trophy Points:
    43
    In the text, Galadriel sings this lament as the Company passes down the Great River, but the description centers on Frodo hearing it, although he did not understand the words at once, and interpreted them later. Anyway, Helge Fauskanger (who is a linguist, I think) describes:

    I'm not sure where "wet/vet" hail from, at the moment anyway, but I would like to find an attested example.

    Ahh, found the inclusive wet attested by JRRT himself. For example:

    "The Quenya (stressed) separate forms were Sg. 1a ní, 2a tyé b lyé, * 3 sé (neuter sá); Pl. 1a mé, b wé > vé, 2 lé 3 té [,neut.] sa; Dual 1[a] met
    b wet, 2 tyet/let, 3 tú. personal and neuter." JRRT, Vinyar Tengwar 49, Appendix II Quenya Pronominal Elements (c. 1968)

    This quote is very arguably more confusing out of context like this :)

    But anyway it appears that vet refers to a later (later in story) change, noted above with Tolkien's wé > vé , thus wet > *vet in the dual too, though not noted here specifically.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 12, 2018
  17. sinkjo

    sinkjo New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2018
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Norway
    This is so exciting! I wish I knew as much as you about this stuff.

    I get a little confused with all your lingual-stuff, to be honest I don´t understand half of it. :p.


    But, can we conclude with: "wet" means "the two of us", and is usable as a sentence I tell to my fiancé?
     
  18. Galin

    Galin Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2004
    Messages:
    732
    Likes Received:
    199
    Trophy Points:
    43
    If I can still be trusted at this point... :D

    ... yes, I think the inclusive wet/vet is the way to go here.

    And for myself, I would choose vet, reflecting a change (initial w > v) "affecting Quenya as spoken by the Exiles" (Appendix E, Writing and Spelling).

    writing

    And if you do choose vet, I would write the initial sound with the letter called vala (number 22 in the chart). Amanye Tenceli notes:


    "wilya > vilya. Quenya w turned into v initially, but often remained w medially. In the sole Quenya text where vilya occurs (Tolkien's transcription of Namárie), it is used for medial w, in the word vanwa. According to "Outline of Phonology", the change of w to v was “usually also reflected in spelling”, which presumably means that vala was used to write the new v sound."​

    So that's why I say I'd use vet written with vala :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2018
  19. sinkjo

    sinkjo New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2018
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Norway
    Thank you so much!!! I very much agree with your reasoning.

    I found vala, and maybe use tinco for "t"? But what about "e"? I could not find it in the list.
     
  20. Galin

    Galin Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2004
    Messages:
    732
    Likes Received:
    199
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Yep, vala with an "acute accent" above it, then tinco. Tolkien writes: "The single dot and the "acute accent" were frequently used for i and e (but in some modes for e and i)".

    Using Roman letters, the word namárie has an acute accent over the a (which means the vowel is long in Roman orthography). The acute accent when writing vet in Elvish characters does not denote length, but the short vowel e, and as I say, it goes above the preceding consonant (if there is one, and here there is), so above vala.

    I'm not sure all will agree with my choice of vala instead of wilya/vilya here, but I'm sticking to it unless convinced otherwise, and from my interpretation of the Amanye Tenceli quote, it seems right to me.

    http://at.mansbjorkman.net/teng_quenya.htm#vowels
     

Share This Page