Was Bilbo right to offer the Arkenstone of Thrain to Bard?

Discussion in '"The Hobbit"' started by Arvedui, Oct 14, 2003.

  1. Arvedui

    Arvedui Stargazer

    Was Bilbo right to offer the Arkenstone of Thrain to Bard?

    Another topic from the Debate-Tournament.

    Enjoy:)
     
  2. Celebthôl

    Celebthôl Loremaster

    No i dont believe so at all, I believe that Thorin should have been with the jewel of his house one last time at least, i think it was very wrong what Bilbo did, he may have had good intentions by doing it, but it didnt bring about any results at all. The way i always saw it was that Bilbo was a busy-body. ;)
     
  3. Sarah

    Sarah Pervy Hobbit Fancier

    Thorin did say he could chose what he wanted didn't he? Well he chose the stone. The stone was his. He gave it to whom he wanted. Correct me if I'm wrong.
     
  4. Celebthôl

    Celebthôl Loremaster

    No, Thorin said he can have anything BAR the Arkenstone ;)
     
  5. Sarah

    Sarah Pervy Hobbit Fancier

    Bilbo didn't know what the arkenstone was tho. Thorin didn't say, the arkenstone is this big and it's this color, and it's very shiney. NO. Bilbo didn't know. no, he was just like 'ooo, pretty, i want one!'

    What can I say, I like shiney things:rolleyes:
     
  6. Celebthôl

    Celebthôl Loremaster

    Then why did he run off to Bard and the Elven-king yelling "Here is the Arkenstone of Thrain"? ;)
     
  7. Legolam

    Legolam Ad astra per aspera

    If memory serves me correctly, Bilbo was doing what he thought was right at the time. He saw this stand-off between 2 proud people who wouldn't back down and, being the peace-loving, argument-avoiding little hobbit that he is, he tried to sort things out himself. I get the impression that he was thoroughly fed up with the constant threat of violence, especially AFTER the dragon had been removed and the quest accomplished. Bilbo just tried to get the whole thing over and done with quickly and painlessly so he could go back to his nice little hobbit hole.

    Of course, in his naivety, he didn't realise that the Arkenstone was something of great importance to Thorin and unwittingly caused more problems than he solved. But you can't doubt that his heart was in the right place.
     
  8. Celebthôl

    Celebthôl Loremaster

    But he stole the Arkenstone BEFORE he decided to use it as a tool for bartering. Before he even knew of the stand-off. He was a thief and he should never have kept the Arkenstone from Thorin. :mad: :)
     
  9. Arvedui

    Arvedui Stargazer

    I believe the question was if Bilbo was right in offering the Arkenstone to Bard, not if it was right to keep it from Thorin...

    Once again, I think that Legolam has provided a good explanation. Bilbo was tired of the stand-off and the hatred between Men and Elves on one side, and Dwarves on the other. Also there was a clear danger that there might be war between them.
    Bilbo had the Arkenstone. He knew how much it meant to Thorin. He then saw that offering it to Bard was perhaps the only course of action to unlock the stalemate without fighting.

    And mind you, he did this without thinking of his own personal safety. After giving Bard the Arkenstone, he went back to the Dwarves, and was honest enough to admit his actions to Thorin, even if he knew that he would get into trouble.
     
  10. Celebthôl

    Celebthôl Loremaster

    And what did he have to show for it? What did his actions repocurse to?

    Dont forget how much normal jewels and metals are to Dwarves, the Arkenstone meant even more to Thorin, its like one of your friends taking away you most loved possesion and giving it to your rival.
     
  11. Arvedui

    Arvedui Stargazer

    Not sure what you mean with this.
    Are you thinking of what happened after he gave the Arkenstone to Bard?
     
  12. Celebthôl

    Celebthôl Loremaster

    Indeed i am, what did it ammount to?
    Lots of yelling, Bilbo and all Hobbits being cursed, NO gold to change hands, more yelling, possibly some hatred arising(?).
    From what i remember anyway. . .
     
  13. Arvedui

    Arvedui Stargazer

    Not to forget that Thorin was willing to give up one fourteenth of the wealth (Bilbo's share) to Bard, thereby unlocking the stalemate.
    So Bilbo would have been without his share, but that was the price he was willing to pay, wasn't it. In the end, he didn't bring much with him home, even if he was offered a lot.
     
  14. Celebthôl

    Celebthôl Loremaster

    He didn't do this willingly (Thorin), he was cheated out of it, and i can almost guarantee that if the Lake Men and Wood Elves had left, Thorin would have distributed it fairly. But still my point stands ;) nothing came about from Bilbo giving the Arkenstone to Bard.
     
  15. Aulë

    Aulë The Larrikin

    As Thol mentioned before, why did Bilbo keep the Arkenstone secret in the first place? He knew that he was doing wrong, yet he kept hold of it.
    He considered taking the Arkenstone as his 'share', but what help would that have been had he taken that back to the Shire with nothing else? There wouldn't have been enough gold in the Shire to pay for suck a gem, so he would have been stuck with it for life, with the constant risk of burglars. He also wouldn't have gained any monetary value from it, since he couldn't really buy anything with it.

    He was rather silly in keeping it to himself, and probably should have given it to Thorin (given that he didn't know that it would serve useful in the near future). Perhaps Thorin was reluctant to start handing out rewards to the Men of Esgaroth until he had found his prized possession?
     
  16. Arvedui

    Arvedui Stargazer

    Nothing?
    Have we read the same book?:D
    It was up to Thorin if he wanted to give up an amount of the gold to get the Arkenstone back, and what did he decide?
    What then was the reaction to this from the Men and Elves?
    So this was nothing?
    What happened was exactly what Bilbo had hoped!
     
  17. Celebthôl

    Celebthôl Loremaster

    Was there any other choise?

    The Arkenstone to Thorin was a PC/Mac to us :D (at closest), i mean who can live without it? ;)

    He was none to happy about it notice he uses the word "traitor".

    Did they bring forth the ammount agreed? NUH UH! :p
     
  18. ely

    ely Parampampaa

    No, Bilbo was not right to offer the Arkenstone of Thrain to Bard. It was not his to keep and not his to give. Even Bilbo admits that actually he doesn't have to right to give it to Bard.

    But that doesn't mean the Bilbo didn't do the right thing. It was probably the best thing he could do. Desperate times need desperate measures. So, if you catch my point, Bilbo did the right thing by doing the wrong thing. I mean, it was a wrong thing to do in a different situation but it was the right thing do to in that situation.

    About Bilbo keeping the stone, no he didn't have the right to do that either, but he felt that a time comes when he will need it, and I'm sure that if the situation had been different, he'd given the stone to Thorin. He trusted his instinct, his inner feeling... and so he also did the right thing by doing the wrong thing.

    :D ;) :p
     
  19. aragil

    aragil Just another loremaster

    Was Bilbo wrong in keeping the stone?
    There you have it- burglar, not thief, and no mention of exclusion of the Arkenstone. A forward-thinking Thorin should have put it in the contract, if it meant so much to him. In terms of burglaring Bilbo did his fair share- he was certainly more responsible for accomplishing the quest than the thirteen Dwarves put together! Once he posessed the stone, was he right to offer it to Bard and the EK? From the legally binding sense he had no further obligations to the Dwarves- the quest having been fulfilled and he having 'accepted' his payment. Was it morally correct? Other people have argued well that it was the best thing he could do in the situation. For all he knew it was the only way to repay the Lakemen and Elves (who were the ones who had not only helped Thorin and co. out, but who had also slain the dragon and paid the price for his destruction), while at the same time avoiding further bloodshed.
     
  20. Legolam

    Legolam Ad astra per aspera

    Don't forget that Bilbo had recently come into possession of the One Ring, the one object in Middle Earth likely to corrupt his innocent little hobbit mind. Maybe he wouldn't have normally taken it, but the Ring was already exerting a subtle influence over him. Does anyone know if he was wearing the Ring at the time of this quote? I don't have my Hobbit handy (in a manner of speaking).

    Yay, thanks Arvedui! It's been a while since I actively searched out some good LOTR topics to get my teeth into, and with all this GoP rubbish going on, I reckoned I may as well start discussing what I came here to discuss. But I'm a bit out of practice, so it's nice to be appreciated!
     

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