Discussion in '"The Lord of the Rings"' started by dgoof911, Jan 26, 2002.
Because the valor were peaceful and thought it wrong to his mission
Negative. A "Senior Dragon" could have probably destroyed the Great Rings, but Gandalf says that not even the dreaded Ancagalon the Black could have destroyed the Master Ring.
They had to have had a direct contact, even in the books. It says that Gandalf went to Dol Guldor to drive out the Necromancer, AKA Sauron.
Also, if the rule were really imposed by the Valar, it would seem that Sauruman royally broke it with his actions, so maybe it was more of an honor system than actual force.
Sauron and the Ring are one. Sauron couldn't be destroyed while the Ring survived. Even without him possessing the Ring there is no hope to vanquish him without destroying it. Besides Gandalf would have probably been destroyed in a direct confrontation with Sauron at the time of the War. He feared he was overmatched even by the Witch-king. If he was destroyed could he have come back a second time? I doubt it. Then the story would have had to continue without him, and who knows how it might have ended!
I actually find that a bit hard to believe, as he was about even with a Balrog yet the so-called Witch-King, which, if the story is true, is just a regular man turned into a Nazgul, was supposedly too much for him (but apparently not for Merry and Eowyn.)
Another thing, minus the whole limited strength thing, is why Saruman would want to delay taking out Sauron for. It would be EASIER to snag the Ring for himself without Sauron lurking around as the Necromancer near the place where the Ring was supposedly last at. If Sauron was again weakened, then it would be easier to look for the Ring and take over without Sauron and his armies lurking around as a rival.
If by "regular man" you mean only that he was a mortal, that's true; however, he was, IIRC, already a king and mighty personality before being given his ring by Sauron. Indeed, in addition to creating minions to oppose the West, we could see the giving of the rings to mortal men as a strategy for controlling possible rivals.
In the event, the clash between him and Gandalf never takes place, as the intervention of the Rohirrim causes him to retreat.
As for Saruman's designs, they are given in the note to the entry for T.A. 2851, in Appendix B:
I don't believe it's as simple as saying "elves are more powerful than men, maiar than elves, valar than maiar." Men can have power to match the maiar, although that power may be of a different sort. Anyway I don't think the Witch-king WAS a man. Having faded into the shadows you become something quite different than what you were before, much like Smeagol faded into Gollum or elves were twisted into orcs. Besides being formerly powerful kings of men the Nazgul had the aid of their rings.
"Yet now under the Lord of Barad-dur the most fell of all captains is already master of your outer walls," said Gandalf. "King of Angmar long ago, Sorcerer, Ringwraith, Lord of the Nazgul, a spear of terror in the hand of Sauron, shadow of despair."
"Then, Mithrandir, you have a foe to match you," said Denethor.... "Is this all you have returned to say? Or can it be that you have withdrawn because you are overmatched?"
Pippin trembled, fearing that Gandalf would be stung to sudden wrath, but his fear was needless. "It might be so," Gandalf answered softly. "But our trial of strength is not yet come.
The Return of the King, LoTR Book 5, Ch 4, The Siege of Gondor
I'm no expert in LOTR books but in the film, a lightning bolt hits Gandalf's sword before striking the Balrog, is that in the book?. If it is, is that some sort of help from Manwë or Eru?. Regardless, he came to ME robed in grey, not as Olórin, so his power was not naked.
There's a thread (which I can't seem to find!) discussing the sequence in the book; maybe someone else can.
I'll quote just the most relevant parts from the book:
So there were two flashes, one caused by the clash of swords, one by -- what? That was discussed in the other thread. I'll link it here, if and when I can find it.
What PJ made of this, I don't recall -- a hash, I expect.
Miguel, dude, are you telling us you don't have a copy of FOTR?
EDIT: Ah here it is:
Mostly about staffs, but I suggested some possibilities concerning Gandalf's "cry".
I do have copies but they're in another continent, never got around to read them because i was spending most of that time learning the Quenta, they were next tho.
So that fight in the mountains is never mentioned in the book after all?.
Oh, were you talking about the fight on Celebdil? I thought you meant Moria!
The description of the last fight atop Celebdil comes, not directly, but as related by Gandalf, in TT:
That may be where PJ got his "lightning bolt", though as is clear from Gandalf's words, this was a mistaken impression of any who who may have "seen it from afar". Kind of appropriate, if you think about it.
Sorry to hear your copies of LOTR are also "afar", but I see individual volumes, and even box sets, at junk stores frequently. Just picked up a near mint set from 1978 at Goodwill last month. Worth looking around.
Well i do like the bolt hitting the sword tho, but i can totally understand people who read the books way before the movie going "what is that?" when they saw it.
I have a problem with reading for long periods of time, it gets me sleepy, and i tend to re-read lines too much, i don't know why, it's weird. That's why i hear the audiobooks, i prefer someone telling me the story, this does get me sleepy as well but not as fast as reading it. I need all the material in audiobook format.
OK. Still, a hard copy is useful for referencing specific sequences like this one.
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