Why didn't the Valar receive the One Ring?

Discussion in '"The Silmarillion"' started by Úlairi, Mar 13, 2002.

  1. Úlairi

    Úlairi Crying in the Wilderness

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    :D :D :D In the Council of Elrond it was suggested that they should sail the Ring over to the "The Lords of the West" i.e. the Valar. But it was said that the Ring would not be received. Yet the Valar were so worried about the domination of Sauron, that they sent five wizards (or possibly even more than that) over to ME to stop him. Why do you think this is???:D :D :D
     
  2. Eonwe

    Eonwe Upper Class Twit

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    This is directly explained I think by Elrond in the CoE. To paraphrase (since I don't have the books), he says that too often the free peoples of ME have turned that way to solve their problems. The Valar after Numenor are no longer directly involved, they leave it up to the people of ME to correct their problems.

    So the Valar in the Third Age sent the Istari to guide people to do the right things against evil, not to counter the force of evil directly.
     

  3. Merry

    Merry Has chubby cheeks

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    That is really mean, the Valar didn't have to do much, just sit on the ring and keep it safe. In fact, I'm sure Manwe could have unmade it within seconds.

    Lets abandon the world to darkness and hatred shall we??

    Yay the Valar! :mad:
     
  4. Anduril

    Anduril Nil desperandum!

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    I think Eonwe has a good point...
    In fact, If we can remember what happened in Numenoré, thus we can have a whole idea of the nature of men...

    To this people (men) were given by the Valar several gifts, power, wisdom , longevity...and this guys, at the end, wasted them due to greed and perversion...

    I think at this point, The Valar decided play a role as guides, not saviors...
     

  5. Orome

    Orome Guest

    Hmmmm, have to think about what Merry is saying. There are times when we have to use the gifts we have given to make the best of things as they are, but wouldn't it seem at least responsible the Valar take care of their own so to speak? Leaving mortals to clean up the messes of greater ones the greater ones themselves have not cleaned up seems quite nearly negligent and irresponsible if you think about it from a responsibility standpoint. Let mortals deal with mortal problems. Let the higher ones take care of their own problems which were not fixed. Whatever could be said of temptations Sauron made at various times which were accepted by any race in any form should not have been a temptation they should have faced. Mortal temptations are quite enough to overcome in any reasonable form but those offered by greater beings should not be faced. At least the Istari being sent seems some parallel for the tempation Sauron would make in that there was influence toward the opposite path. Seems like their arrival was after too much of Sauron's impact was already set in motion and direct influence from the Valar was not as much there to offset it in ways. Not very balanced seemingly. Let greater ones against whom our power is not so much act more directly against greater ones againtst whom are power is not so much. The rest is test enough!
     
  6. Legolam

    Legolam Ad astra per aspera

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    But what's the point in turning to someone higher up every time you have a problem. At some point, you have to stand on your own two feet. Everyone has to learn to sort out their problems, or else no-one has any accountability. The Valar were acting as guides, as Anduril said, but they can't take responsibility for the actions of men all the time. The fact that the citizens of ME had to sort it out themselves also helped them grow and mature and appreciate the difference between good and evil. If the Valar had simply stepped in, they wouldn't have learnt this important point.
     
  7. Merry

    Merry Has chubby cheeks

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    I would agree with you if the natural inhabitants of M-E had caused the problems themselves. However, Sauron was a Maia and was picking on people who were inferior in power. Leaving M-E to defend themselves against Sauron is almost like letting a wolf have free reign in a chicken coup, the match is not a fair one.

    I think that the Valar had the responsibility to defend the children of Eru against any unfair competition.
     
  8. Anduril

    Anduril Nil desperandum!

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    I think this is a question of "pares" (similar people in rank, in latin)...

    who can pervert a Vala? a Maia?..I don't think so...

    I think that in certain point of the history, every nation,every country, every bunch of people has been obligated to fight against external forces (even stronger than themselves)...that's the only way to learn, and to grow up.
    If everything is given to you, you won't appreciate your own effort or your own growth.
    I you don't know light, you can easily be perverted by darkness.
    If you don't know darkness, you can't see light.

    Hard, but real.

    In fact, I think Sauron knew that he couldn't pervert Vala...so, he tried the easier way in the order to damage The Creation...pervert man, dwarves, elfs...
     
  9. Merry

    Merry Has chubby cheeks

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    Therefore that is a backdoor way of attcking the Valar, if you attack the children of god you are in effect, attacking god. But the Valar did nothing....??
     
  10. Anduril

    Anduril Nil desperandum!

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    They helped men in the past...example again...Numenor, and the battle before The Gift..pfuff...ouch...

    And we demostrated our "high capability of being corrupted"...

    We're not the children of The Vala, we're children of Eru...The Vala were, since the very beginning, the guides of Arda. They defeated Arda for the coming "boarders"...

    This is a matter of perception.

    I think the Vala were guides, more than saviors, if Eru (and I'm going to launch a very bold statement)didn't thought we needed him...who were the Vala to disagree with him?
    And I'm responding with another question to ilustrate my point: Why Sauron , as a Maia, as a demigod, as an ubermensch, didn't offer a ring to Eru?...too complicated. Even impossible...
    The Vala helped us, we "failed"...If you are all the time helping your son, he will get the custom and he'll never grow up or will never grow stronger.
     
  11. Orome

    Orome Guest

    Going back to the original question about why the Valar did not receive the ring, right or wrong for what their overall involvement was would it have only been a non-solution in ways or possibly kept things in some mad cycle in middle earth. It had to be decided one way or the other ultimately. Even if the ring was kept from Sauron's reach then Sauron if cast down would have his power actually preserved in a way in the land of the Valar itself. Kind of an irony in that. As long as the ring existed somewhere each time Sauron was thrown down he could regather his power again. That would have been quite a mess and the Valar would have themselves contributed to it had they taken the ring. So while it was not ensured that Sauron would never gain full power it was also not ensured that Sauron would continue on and on and on as long as his ring was existing. The only way
    around this I suppose is if the Valar themselves would have destroyed the ring.
     
  12. Úlairi

    Úlairi Crying in the Wilderness

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    Exalctly my point!

    :D :D :D That's exactly my point, exactly! They could have destroyed the One Ring if it was given to them in an instant. That would end Sauron, yet they did not receive, which brings us back to the thread, why didn't they receive the One Ring and help the peoples of Middle-earth out one last time before the return of Melkor!:D :D :confused:

    Hey people! Post!

    This thought just occured to me. If the Valar weren't willing to receive the One Ring because of the fact that they believed that they had helped the peoples of ME one too many times, then why did they send the Istari if they weren't willing to help?
     
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  13. Anarchist

    Anarchist The Eternal Champion

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    Well to begin with, personally I don't like some of the Valar. They let Morgoth do his own for such a long time and cause such pain and sadness before they punished him. It would be a small matter for them to undo the ring. But think it the other way. After the "attack" of the Numenorians (actually they didn't achieved an attack), they became more distant from the people of ME. They let them do their own without interfeering. I believe they had offered enough help. But, if all things failed, I believe that they would finally help, punishing once again the Dark Lord, just like they did with Morgoth.
     
  14. Zale

    Zale Wordsmith

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    Remember that Sauron may not have been the Valar's only 'problem' in Middle-Earth; Tolkien only wrote about the North-West corner! There may have been loads of other things (including Morgoth-corrupted Maia) to deal with. Therefore, they could not devote all of their time to Sauron.
     
  15. Úlairi

    Úlairi Crying in the Wilderness

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    Very good opinion Zale! But I believe that most of the southern parts of ME were wasteland.
     
  16. Beleg Strongbow

    Beleg Strongbow Superior Elf

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    Is that right Ulairi can u tell me where u got that info?? I'm interested in that part of the world and there aint that much info on it.
     
  17. Úlairi

    Úlairi Crying in the Wilderness

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    There is no info on it Beleg, it is just stated that is was mostly wasteland. BtW, this thread was abondoned long ago (a couple of months now) and I do not wish to post in it anymore Beleg, so, just don't post in it. I hate seeing posts where my happy and lovey-dovey smiley faces still exist. I cannot believe I was once like that. I gave up the smiley faces when I reached Senior Member status.
     
  18. Beleg Strongbow

    Beleg Strongbow Superior Elf

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    Yes how did you change that from to "senior member" 2 "lord of...."? I don't know how to do it:) :rolleyes: :rolleyes: .:confused:
     
  19. Úlairi

    Úlairi Crying in the Wilderness

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    You go to your user control panel, go to edit profile on the toolbar at the top. You will go to your profile and you scroll down to where it says: "Custom User Title" and you can change it in there! You seemed to have missed out on quite a lot since you have been gone! BtW, the WB at one time even got rid of the post count!
     
  20. Beleg Strongbow

    Beleg Strongbow Superior Elf

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    Yes i geuss so. Thanks alot Ulairi