Why would Sauron care if Aragorn had the Ring?

Discussion in '"The Lord of the Rings"' started by BalrogRingDestroyer, Feb 3, 2019.

  1. BalrogRingDestroyer

    BalrogRingDestroyer Member

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    He's just a mortal man. Would it even be possible for him to get enough power from it to topple Suaron?

    That part I never got as to why it seemed possible that Gondor could do anything with the Ring more than raise a big stink and have Suaron personally come over there and take it.
     
  2. Merroe

    Merroe Active Member

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    The Ring would give the Ringbearer a power great enough to compete with Sauron's, if not more. It would mean that Sauron's servants would pass to the service of the Ringbearer (not least of them the Nazgûl).

    But for a weaker will, that would first require a learning process, or, as Galadriel put it:

    Before you could use that power you would need to become far stronger, and to train your will to the domination of others.

    Sauron was aware of mortals (and others) with a will strong enough to pose such a thread, not in the least after Aragorn had challenged him via the palantír recovered from Isengard. With Gandalf's words:

    he knows that this precious thing which he lost has been found again; but he does not yet know where it is, or so we hope. And therefore he is now in great doubt. For if we have found this thing, there are some among us with strength enough to wield it.
     

  3. Squint-eyed Southerner

    Squint-eyed Southerner Skulking near Archet

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    Indeed, and this is underlined by Aragorn's words at the Hornburg, a passage which repays careful reading:

    The "other guise" is clearly that of the True King, the ruler, by right, of Middle Earth. The right is signalled by Gandalf's handing over the Palantir to him, and by his own words:
    The fear inspired in Sauron by the appearance of the sword that cut the Ring from his hand, wielded by the heir of the mightiest of his enemies among Men, needn't be belabored.

    There is, in fact, a sense in which the power of the Ring itself belongs to the rightful King: Sauron, I would argue, knows in his heart that he is a usurper, a rebel against the Valar, and ultimately, against Eru, and to those loyal to him, "the Faithful". If so, all his works, including the Ring, could be lawfully commanded by Aragorn. According to the "laws" of Middle Earth, "right makes might".

    As for that power, recall the words of that other, would-be usurper, Boromir:
    Boromir is not wrong: the Ring does give "power of Command", for one with the strength of will to use it. But of course, the flaw is revealed in his words just before:
    The evil inherent in the Ring, the power of "unlimited ego", as I've argued elsewhere, is why the Wise refuse the Ring, and why Sauron is so fearful of its possession by one as powerful as Aragorn, that he is led to unleash his attack on the West before all his forces are ready: according to another of the "laws" of Middle Earth, good can understand evil, but evil cannot understand good.
     
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  4. Merroe

    Merroe Active Member

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    That's right, SES!

    Aragorn was the principal person of his fear, most especially after his challenge via the palantír.

    Besides, I always saw Gandalf as a second potential challenger (at least from Sauron's point of view): Gandalf was well aware of the power he could wield if he took the Ring and used it; here are his words when Frodo offered him the Ring:

    With that power I should have power too great and terrible. And over me the Ring would gain a power still greater and more deadly. Do not tempt me! For I do not wish to become like the Dark Lord himself.

    There are other personalities of "lordly" stature as well (Imrahil e.g.; SES mentioned Boromir, etc).

    Yet, no matter who would have done that, he would have ended as another "Dark Lord" with Sauron set aside, if not much worse for him. So Sauron had much to worry about who might come forth. That is also why any initiative to destruct the Ring was not an option he considered until it was too late.
     

  5. Alcuin

    Alcuin Registered User

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    Sauron cared if anyone other than he had his Ring. Aragorn was just one of those he most feared and hated.

    Merroe is quite correct: Sauron (and the Witch-king) certainly feared Gandalf’s having and wielding the Ring. We could surmise that, but Tolkien’s notes specifically tell us this. His working notes are quoted in Reader’s Companion for “Knife in the Dark”: the Witch-king and four other Ringwraiths are aware of Gandalf’s approaching Weathertop:
    Tolkien discusses others using the Ruling Ring in Letter 246. Most of the letter as published concerns Frodo and his failure in the Chamber of Fire, but near the end it describes other major characters: Aragorn, Elrond, Galadriel, and Gandalf.
    I think there can be little doubt that Sauron believed Aragorn possessed the Ring. He probably concluded the ruin of Isengard was Aragorn’s doing, with Gandalf’s help and advice, surely. I don’t believe he knew anything of Gandalf’s restoration atop Zirak-zigal after his overthrow of the Balrog, so he did not know that Gandalf had been enhanced in power and authority by Eru. But in any case, Sauron had ceased altogether to fear Eru. From Morgoth’s Ring, “Myths Transformed”,
    But there is more to Sauron’s hatred of Aragorn than appears on the surface. Yes, he was the Heir of Isildur who robbed him of his precious Ruling Ring. But in Unfinished Tales, “The Disaster of the Gladden Fields”, Tolkien describes Isildur’s eldest son and heir:
    And further in the footnote to this passage,
    Aragorn was like unto Elendur, and Elendur like unto his grandfather Elendil: Aragorn resembled Elendil, the man upon whom Aragorn modelled himself, Sauron’s greatest enemy.

    Consider what Sauron imagined he knew: Summoned by his Ring, instead of a frightened Hobbit on Amon Hen, he saw a strange Man who somehow overcame its temptations and wrested it off. Saruman’s army was defeated at the Hornburg, then Isengard was destroyed and Saruman overthrown. Somehow this Man obtained the palantír of Orthanc from Saruman, dared to show himself and the Sword of Elendil to Sauron, then overcame Sauron by wrenching away control of his palantír of Orthanc! Sauron no longer knew what this Númenórean could see, or influence his deliberations (as he could Saruman and even Denethor to some extent): this was a serious problem! Then he appears sailing up the Anduin in Sauron’s own fleet from Umbar! So he somehow defeated the coastal invasion even before coming to Minas Tirith. The Nazgûl lord is overthrown, and Sauron’s magnificent army annihilated, even after Denethor immolated himself! In Sauron’s mind, Aragorn must be wielding the Ring: he must have a clear understanding of Sauron’s purposes and plans: he is therefore very, very dangerous. Worse, he probably looks something like Elendil, (though Aragorn denied it to Boromir: “Little do I resemble the figures of Elendil and Isildur as they stand carven in their majesty in the halls of Denethor.”) and Elrond thinks he carries himself as did Elendur, and therefore like Elendil.

    And Aragorn guessed and deliberately played upon Sauron’s fear:
    Now Sauron must have supposed Gandalf was somehow behind this, and that Gandalf planned eventually to take possession of the Ring himself. This is plainly reflected in the minds of the two who met Sauron in the palantíri: Saruman, who “imagine[d] that [Gandalf’s] different behaviour [from Saruman’s own] was due simply to weaker intelligence and lack of firm masterful purpose. He was only a rather cleverer Radagast…” (“Myths Transformed”); and Denethor, who accused him outright of manipulative scheming: “Thy hope is to rule in my stead, to stand behind every throne, north, south, or west. I have read thy mind and its policies. … So! With the left hand thou wouldst use me for a little while as a shield against Mordor, and with the right bring up this Ranger of the North to supplant me.” (Return of the King, “The Pyre of Denethor”) While Saruman and Denethor had each his own faults and may well have come to these conclusions separately, on their own, I think their minds were also filled with the fears of Sauron, with whom they had unfortunately come into close communion. Gandalf also suspected this in “The Last Debate”:
    In other words, “a time of strife” between Aragorn and Gandalf, in Sauron’s expectations.

    Aragorn was “a great power,” as the Witch-king observes in Tolkien’s notes. Returning to Reader’s Companion,
    Finally consider this: How many of the Dúnedain of Arnor secretly loved Arwen? How many did she suspect? She was by this time an excellent judge of Men, having seen so many generations of great and brave Númenórean exiles come and go. Of all these, she chose Aragorn.

    Sauron had reason to fear him.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2019
  6. CirdanLinweilin

    CirdanLinweilin The Wandering Wastrel

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    *Applauds*





    CL
     
  7. Celebrimbors bane

    Celebrimbors bane New Member

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    I'd love to just add a comment in response to alcuins brilliant answer, but I do have to disagree that Sauron was aware Gandalf was behind the scheming of and aiding of the good guys. I don't have the book in front of me but Gandalf after pippins whole palantir debacle says along the lines "we have been strange fortunate, and I have been especially saved by pippins mistake, if I have had probed this stone to find it's uses I would of been revealed to him and it d be disastrous to see me now, now yet not when secrecy is still needed" that was basically the quote once I have the book in front of me I shall put the proper accurate quote in. But from what Gandalf says saying he would be revealed and it wasn't the time because secrecy was still being used it seems to me that Gandalf being essentially a guardian and aid of the good guys wasn't an open thing yet to the forces of Sauron.

    The quote alcuins provides in which Tolkien gives an insight into Saurons opinion of the istari is very helpful, Sauron himself knows they're maia or emissaries of the valar, but the fact he guesses their purpose wrong gives Gandalf his major advantage needed. He saw them as a last ditch attempt by the valar to regain some power of middle earth which Saruman proved to be in line with, radagast he no doubt thought little of, yet Gandalf he did not understand, a maia comes to middle earth, doesn't seek power like Saruman but isn't interested in animals and such like radagast, Gandalf really must of been a blurr for Sauron to try to understand.

    Sorry sent this from work, but essentially my point is I don't think Sauron worked out Gandalfs purpose till he marched on the black gate when secrecy was of no avail no more
     
  8. Merroe

    Merroe Active Member

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    Gandalf's statement to which you refer is this:

    At this time we have been strangely fortunate. Maybe, I have been saved by this hobbit from a grave blunder. I had considered whether or not to probe this Stone myself to find its uses. Had I done so, I should have been revealed to him myself. I am not ready for such a trial, if indeed I shall ever be so. But even if I found the power to withdraw myself, it would be disastrous for him to see me, yet – until the hour comes when secrecy will avail no longer.

    And then he goes on saying:

    There remains a short while of doubt, which we must use. The Enemy, it is clear, thought that the Stone was in Orthanc – why should he not? And that therefore the hobbit was captive there, driven to look in the glass for his torment by Saruman. That dark mind will be filled now with the voice and face of the hobbit and with expectation: it may take some time before he learns his error. We must snatch that time.

    Gandalf therefore perceives that Sauron misunderstood the situation and that this buys some extra time unexpectedly.

    But I understand that your point was rather about Sauron's perception of Gandalf as an adversary. Here, Alcuin's references are clear about the enemy knowing of Gandalf opposition (besides, Gandalf helped to drive him out of Dol Guldur long before).

    However, I assume that Sauron must also have learned by then that Gandalf "the Grey" had perished in his fight against the balrog. Now, when exactly he became also aware afterwards that Gandalf "the White" had returned to ME with enhanced powers I do not know. The Witchking saw him during the battle of the Pelennor but whether news of Gandalf's re-appearance returned to Sauron in due time is not actually recorded in LotR, IAFAIK. Or maybe Wormtongue briefed Saruman who briefed Sauron in turn...!?

    I suppose this further confirms Sauron's perception of Aragorn as his principal opponent and challenger, as SES pointed out before (along with his suspicion that Aragorn might be able to use the Ring).
     
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  9. Squint-eyed Southerner

    Squint-eyed Southerner Skulking near Archet

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    Good posts, all. Thanks for the quotes, Alcuin, especially from The Reader's Companion, which I confess I don't yet have. There's one thing you said that confuses me;
    You seem to be speaking both of the Ring and the Palantir; could you clarify? My reading was always that Sauron saw no one on Amon Hen.

    As for when he became aware of Gandalf Returned, Gandalf speculated on this, while riding with Pippin:
    Saruman would no doubt try to conceal as much as possible from the Nazgul, especially his defeat by Gandalf, and attempt to silence Wormtongue, but as we know from one version of "The Hunt for the Ring", Wormtongue had encountered the Witch-King and crew before, and was in mortal fear of them. Who knows what he might he blurted out?
     
  10. Alcuin

    Alcuin Registered User

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    [Part 1 of 2]

    With delight! Thank you for asking.

    This was not my initial reaction either when I first read LotR decades ago. I would absolutely and resolutely have agreed with your statement, “Sauron saw no one on Amon Hen.” (Time is such a strange companion, an almost weird road: I am the same person I was as a young teenager, but so many things have happened, I myself have changed…)

    Frodo was wearing the Ring when he reached the summit of Amon Hen. He looked out and about: there was no sound, only images, sharp but distant: very much like a palantír, except that palantíri permitted communication between (or perhaps among, in the case of the master stones of Osgiliath and Amon Sûl) users. He saw orcs in the Misty Mountains, the Rohirrim on the plains, the city of Minas Tirith, Orodruin – and the Barad-dûr.
    That “black shadow” is clearly Sauron’s attention, his “gaze” if you will. It’s represented as a dark, demonic presence. Gandalf the White is striving against Sauron, probably from Lórien. Speaking of Frodo early in their first meeting in Fangorn Forest, he told Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli,
    Saruman and Sauron both know Gandalf the Grey fell into the abyss in Moria with the Balrog. One of the great things about Reader’s Companion is that it reports Tolkien’s notes on the movements of Enemies: Sauron, Saruman, the Nazgûl, Orcs, etc. Tolkien very carefully worked out what both sides were doing, when, who, where, and what. (I think this is likely a holdover from his days as a young officer at the Battle of the Somme, where is his life and those of his men depended upon it.) In the chapter on “The Departure of Boromir,” we read that
    It goes on to describe the Mordor-orcs on the east side of Anduin, the Nazgûl mounted on the flying beast, Legolas’ shooting down the Nazgûl in flight, and the meeting of Uglúk and Grishnákh on February 25, the day before they ambush and kill Boromir and kidnap Merry and Pippin.

    I bring all this up to put into perspective what is happening. Both Sauron and Saruman know Gandalf has been killed. Neither realizes – nor imagines – that Eru has sent him back as His emissary to ensure that both are overthrown!

    There’s a little side-note here that is nonetheless important: Gandalf the Grey, Olórin the Maia, overthrows the Balrog, a fallen Maia, sacrificing his own life in the process. Eru finds his sacrifice acceptable, and sends him back. After his return as Gandalf the White, he first discomfits and breaks the personal power of Saruman, Curumo the Maia. (The Ents broke Saruman’s institutional power by wrecking Isengard; and Aragorn and the Rohirrim, with Gandalf’s assistance, destroyed his army.) Gandalf is, as Aragorn declares at his crowning, “the mover of all that [was] accomplished,” and contributes greatly to the overthrow of Sauron the Maia. Gandalf is directly responsible for the removal of three wicked Maiar at the end of the Third Age, and indirectly responsible for removing Smaug the Dragon and the monstrous Shelob; his indirect actions also led to the release of the Dead Men of Dunharrow and the cessation of their haunting and killing people living in the White Mountains. His direct actions are all against other Maiar (or Sauron’s preternatural servants, the Nazgûl), who have no right to do what they’re doing; his indirect actions help clear much of the supernatural or preternatural power operating in the West of Middle-earth, so that the Fourth Age is safe(r) for Men.​

    Now when Gandalf tells Aragorn, “There remains a short while of doubt which we must use. The Enemy, it is clear, thought that the Stone was in Orthanc… it may take some time before he learns his error. We must snatch that time,” he is thinking, in this light, not only of the fact that Sauron doesn’t know that Saruman’s palantír has left Orthanc, and that as a result Sauron is unaware of their presence and position and situation, and thus of his own increasing peril: Sauron doesn’t know Gandalf even exists any longer, and certainly not that he is far more powerful than before. It will be five days before the Nazgûl meet Gandalf on the Field of Pelennor when he rescues Faramir from them. Only then does Sauron discover that Gandalf is alive; I don’t think he ever discovers the increase in Gandalf’s power and authority. (Aragorn’s existence is also a surprise to Sauron, who believed he had killed the last Heir of Isildur with the death of Aragorn’s father Arathorn.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2019
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  11. Alcuin

    Alcuin Registered User

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    [Part 2 of 2]

    And that brings us back to your question, Squint-eyed Southerner. Frodo is sitting on the Seat of Seeing on Amon Hen. He’s wearing the Ring, so he’s already partly in the shadow world of spirits, where Sauron’s necromancy operates. Through the power of Amon Hen, he sees Barad-dûr, and Sauron is immediately aware that someone is wearing his Ring and looking at him: I think the Ring “calls” to its master: which is a pretty good thing to program into the Ring in case it gets separated from you: “Here I am!” (Sam intuited this when he stepped over the border into Mordor in the first chapter of RotK: “He’d spot me and cow me, before I could so much as shout out. He’d spot me, pretty quick, if I put the Ring on now, in Mordor.” That’s exactly what happens to Frodo when he puts on the Ring in the Sammath Naur.) Gandalf realizes what is happening on Amon Hen – how he does, we are not told, but after all Eru had just sent him back to foil Sauron – and that confrontation between the two Maia gives Frodo just enough time and strength to avoid being indentified, tracked, and captured. I don’t think there’s any question that had Sauron actually seen Frodo while he was wearing the Ring, he’d have immediately put forth all his power and all his substantial resources – Nazgûl, Orcs, necromancy, what have you – to get his Ring back. There’d have been no place Frodo could escape, even if he took off the Ring, because once he was seen and positively identified, Sauron could follow him with the palantír. (He later lost track of Aragorn because Aragorn entered the Paths of the Dead.) This was a major contest between two powerful creatures, Sauron and Gandalf; afterwards, Gandalf said he “was weary, very weary; and … walked long in dark thought.”

    A few minutes after Frodo left, Aragorn reached the summit, and he sat upon the Seat of Seeing. Reader’s Companion and the chapter on “The Departure of Boromir” quotes The Treason of Isengard:
    If we turn to The Treason of Isengard, in the chapter on “The Departure of Boromir” Christopher Tolkien continues,
    So here is how matters stand:
    1. Frodo goes to the Seat of Seeing wearing the Ring and sees Barad-dûr with his own eyes. I believe the Ring reacts as it was made to do: Sauron is alerted. (Later in Mordor Frodo sees Barad-dûr again: it takes Sam to help him stop his unwillingly putting on the Ring; Sauron is fixated upon Aragorn and his army before the Morannon and is unaware of Frodo since he is not yet actually wearing the Ring.)
    2. Gandalf is made aware and struggles with Sauron. We are not told how Gandalf knows of these events, nor how he interferes with Sauron, except that he mentally speaks to Frodo. But as a result, Frodo removes the Ring, and Sauron misses him.
    3. Aragorn sits upon the seat. “[S]itting in the high seat he looked out. But the sun seemed darkened, and the world dim and remote. He turned from the North back again to North, and saw nothing save the distant hills…”
    After years of puzzling over the matter, I think Sauron’s attention returned to Amon Hen soon after Frodo left. Sauron’s brooding thought is already depicted as “a black shadow … like an arm”; this is similar to the description of “the sun seemed darkened” for Aragorn. Frodo saw “many visions: small and clear as if they were under his eyes upon a table, and yet remote;” for Aragorn, “the world [was] dim and remote.” I propose that either Frodo sat longer that Aragorn, as seems likely, and the power of the Seat had not time to act fully upon Aragorn; or else that Sauron’s power prevented Aragorn from seeing anything. In either case, I think it unquestionable that Sauron’s attention was once more upon Amon Hen: that explains the darkness: Therefore, we can presume that Sauron saw a Man sitting upon the Seat of Seeing. What prevented Aragorn from seeing anything – whether Sauron or the short time he sat there before he heard Boromir’s horn and left to help – is yet unknown. But I am fairly certain Sauron saw him there.

    Once Sauron pondered subsequent events, especially after seeing Aragorn in the palantír and recognizing him as the Man he saw at Amon Hen, the obvious conclusion was that Aragorn had the Ring, possibly after killing Frodo to get it, since there were two Halflings missing from the company.

    Since Sauron would learn Gandalf was not present at Parth Galen, that would explain for him why Aragorn and not Gandalf had the Ring. Sauron would naturally assume the Halfling probably had the Ring because its ownership was contested at Rivendell; and that the Company of the Ring was proceeding to Minas Tirith to use it to make war upon Mordor. That is what Sauron would do were he in their place. (Gandalf tell the Three Hunters exactly this in Fangorn Forest: “He supposes that we were all going to Minas Tirith; for that is what he would himself have done in our place. And according to his wisdom it would have been a heavy stroke against his power.” Tolkien discusses this further when he refutes any analogy between the Ring and the atomic bomb in his Foreword to the Fellowship of the Ring: “If [World War II] had inspired or directed the development of the legend, then certainly the Ring would have been seized and used against Sauron.”) After his fall in Moria, Gandalf could not prevent Aragorn’s claiming the Ring for himself. That also explains why, after he discovered Aragon bearing Elendil’s sword in the palantír, Sauron struck such a heavy blow so swiftly against Minas Tirith: he was seeking to prevent Aragorn’s establishing himself in a position of strength from which he could wage war, particularly since it seemed obvious he had used the Ring to overthrow Saruman.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2019
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  12. Celebrimbors bane

    Celebrimbors bane New Member

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    Brilliant answer again alcuin but I'd like to add my own theory to your comment to maybe help answer how both Gandalf and Sauron were aware of Frodo at amon hen. My theory behind by both were able to feel frodos presence and such is basically well Gandalf was bearing a ring of power himself and Sauron himself had the 9 rings that belonged to the nazgul, sure Frodo was no where near close to mastering the one ring and couldn't, nor was he great in innate power like Gandalf or Sauron but it's clear to me that someone even a hobbit putting on the one ring would have an effect on the other rings, even if it was just like an alarm.

    If I remember correctly galadriel knew Frodo had only put the ring on 3 times before she had even met him, how could she know? Well she most likely would of felt him doing that when wielding her ring. Frodo also at the council of elrond tells Gandalf that at some point (can't remember exact quote) he saw Gandalf walking back and forth atop orthanc in which Gandalf gave Frodo a very confused look. So yeah I theorize that even without a great power wielding it there's some little links still.
     
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  13. Miguel

    Miguel Active Member

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    I'm a little confused about something, could Gandalf have noticed Frodo had he wore on of the nine rings?. Is this something all rings share or is it exclusive only when wearing one of the three?.
     
  14. Celebrimbors bane

    Celebrimbors bane New Member

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    I theorize that anyone wearing one of the rings of power would feel or know when someone had put the one ring on.
     
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  15. Alcuin

    Alcuin Registered User

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    Galadriel knew that Frodo had worn the Ring three times since he left Hobbiton because her grandsons, Elladan and Elrohir, told her so. Remember, they were sent to Lórien as their father’s emissaries following the Council of Elrond.

    Frodo collapsed at the Ford of Bruinen on October 20. He awoke four days later in Rivendell. During that time, Elrond and Gandalf surely made a most careful investigation of all that had transpired, and Frodo talked in his restless sleep.
    1. Frodo put on the Ring at the house of Tom Bombadil after Bombadil made light of it, causing it to seemingly vanish (possibly by making it move entirely into the shadow-world for an instant): Merry, Pippin, and Sam all witnessed this incident; and you will recall that Bombadil could still see Frodo (who was in the shadow-world), and knew that he was wearing the Ring.
    2. Frodo put on the Ring in The Prancing Pony. Aragorn, Pippin, and Sam witnessed this, along with just about everyone in the inn except Barliman Butterbur.
    3. Frodo put on the Ring during the attack on Weathertop. Aragorn, Merry, Pippin, and Sam all witnessed this.
    So there was no need for Galadriel or anyone else to sense Frodo’s using the Ring: there were witnesses, and all the witnesses of any import were in Rivendell willingly providing as much information as they could wrack from their memories during those four days. Finally, everything Frodo did between Hobbiton and Rivendell was thoroughly and openly discussed at the Council of Elrond, and that must have included his wearing and using the Ring. Though we cannot rule out that any person wearing a Great Ring can “sense” another nearby, I don’t think there’s any reason to resort to Galadriel’s or Gandalf’s or Elrond’s “sensing” the Ruling Ring.

    Part of Sauron’s ring-verse spell is
    one ring to find them,
    which may well be an indication that “finding” them was not so easy.

    I don’t think the Nazgûl could at first tell who had the Ring on Weathertop until Frodo put it on, though they knew it was in front of them. The wills of the Nazgûl were entirely enslaved to the One Ring, and that made them sensitive to its presence. Tolkien’s notes indicate that Khamûl the Black Easterling was “the most ready of all (save [the Witch-king]) to perceive the presence of the Ring.” (Reader’s Companion, “Three Is Company”) And again, “as Gandalf passes, [the Witch-king] is aware that Gandalf has not got the Ring.” (Op. cit., “Knife in the Dark”) When Frodo saw the Witch-king at the bridge to Minas Morgul, “the Wraith-lord ... was troubled, sensing some other power within his valley.” (Two Towers, “The Stairs of Cirith Ungol”) I think those three examples make clear that they could sense the Ruling Ring, but I also think that was because the One Ring had long since already “found” them as per the ring-verse.

    We have drifted rather far afield from Sauron’s fear of Aragorn.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2019
  16. Celebrimbors bane

    Celebrimbors bane New Member

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    Yeah we have drifted far, but back to the whole ring issue, when Sauron first putthe one ring on the elves became aware immediately, I don't see why galadriel elrond and Gandalf wouldn't be aware everytime Frodo did put the ring on. Just like Gandalf would of known that Sauron hadn't gotten the one ring back even when Frodo was captured down to the fact he bears an elven ring and would of been aware of Sauron right away, but it's a hard one, your points are deffo valid.
     
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  17. Merroe

    Merroe Active Member

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    Dear Celebrimbors, with that I must respectfully disagree. In that case the use of the Ring (and therefore also its very finding) would have been known also when Bilbo had it and before him Gollum! I remember there was a discussion on this topic before and indeed this isn't the right thread to meander further away.
     
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