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The purpose of creating Gondolin was to create a seperate city state that could remain hidden from the eyes of Morgoth and through it stlealth help the Noldor in any possible way. Gondolin didn't want to make itself public; by making it's public It would become just an ordinary Elvish Kingdom about which Morgoth knew and had decisive information about it---while Gondolin was a secret--a troublesome whisper in Morgoth's ears--and a continuous worry for him.
Yet Nargothrond was hidden for a long time-and it accepted people into it's realm.
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Ulmo had hinted that help can come from the West and it was in his plan that some sort of effort should be made to gain the pardon and help of the Valar.
No-read it in the context, by which Ulmo said those words. the Noldor's hope lies in the West-which is true-it did lie in the west, but Ulmo didn't say 'Send some ships of to Valinor' when it was futile to do so. Firnod didn't send any ships because he knew it was futile and a waste of precious lives to do so.
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In this part also, Gondolin has the mastery. For Gondolin had the honor of being the birthplace of Earendil, from the seed of Tuor, who had Ulmo's backing.
Yeah, startling revelation. Gondolin had the mastery? Because Earendil was born there?
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No Earendil=No freedom.
Yeah and no Finrod=No Silmaril=No point of Earendil=No freedom. :rolleyes: :p
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For the satisfaction of Mister Meadhros, I would like to provide Quote's from Grey Annals, NOT a work edited by Guy Kay or Christopher, and I believe is a later work then that of Lost Road.
Yes-but Maedhros was forced to quote form there since Tolkien didn't deal with it elsewhere.
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A new Age had just begun and it had begun not easily for the Elves in ME. The exiled Noldor were just establishing themselves in the vast new territories, fighting back Orcs and evil creatures, trying to settle conflicts with the local Elves, trying to put up with the quarrels among themselves
Yeah the oh so many Ork's who were afraid to leave Angband for a long time, the non-existent quarrel with 'local Elves' (Sindar) and that terrible Mereth Arthedad. Oh the poor Noldor! So, so bad for them, I mean all the free land, with no prevelant enemies!
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diligence, love and respect for Ulmo and patience (Turgon) and to the other for his wisdom and love for Men and for his tendency to rather find reasonable solutions than catch the arms (Finrod).
Yeah Finrod 'loved men' a race that they hadn't even met yet. Firnod took a more active part in 'catching the arms' (If you mean fighting) then Turgon.
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A war between Elves and Men against Morgoth was not the solution!
Look at the whole role of the Noldor in the war:
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If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reestablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth, without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction. And in the meanwhile, Men, or the best elements in Mankind, shaking off his shadow, came into contact with a people who had actually seen and experienced the Blessed Realm.
Myths Transformed
So another point of the Noldorin exile was to hold Morgoth abay and stop him from destroying Beleriand and M-E. And of course this would have been in Ulmo's plans since his closest ally Manwe was supposed to have taken this in cosideration when 'exiling the Noldor' (With Namo of course, who knew what would happen.)
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Even so, and on the grounds of the stories as received, it is possible to view the matter otherwise. The closing of Valinor against the rebel Noldor (who left it voluntarily and after warning) was in itself just. But, if we dare to attempt to enter the mind of the Elder King, assigning motives and finding faults, there are things to remember before we deliver a judgement. Manwe was the spirit of greatest wisdom and prudence in Arda. He is represented as having had the greatest knowledge of the Music, as a whole, possessed by any one finite mind; and he alone of all persons or minds in that time is represented as having the power of direct recourse to and communication with Eru. He must have grasped with great clarity what even we may perceive dimly: that it was the essential mode of the process of 'history' in Arda that evil should constantly arise, and that out of it new good should constantly come.
Myths Transformed
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Turgon – he was to bring to the world the Messenger.
Exactly-without Finrod's help thus starting everything off Turgon's role was futile.
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This time Ulmo spoke directly, not in the mist of a dream. The plan he had devised he – the Vala, plainly and openly lay before the wise Elf-Lord Turgon in the very smallest details!!
Yeah a plan which Turgon convenintly forgot to carry out. Whoops. :rolleyes:
Gonoldin was simply harder to find then Nargothrond. Nargothrond was known to Elwe and was a previous petty-dwarvish realm. What do you want Ulmo to do instruct Finrod on how/where to find a realm, that he knows where it is situated.
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Remember! He knew nothing of Ulmo’s plan! Ulmo had never more spoken to him after that dream and had not explained to him any details of the great plan and had NOT instructed him on his role in all that!
Ys-because his own wisdom/foresight meant he knew that this was his role in the war-to assist in the saving of M-E!
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are to be understand as a sarcastic view to a imagined “what if”- scenario. Read it carefully and you’ll understand it!
Really! Like Oh-my-god! Wow, hilarious sarcasm. Oh I understand Lhun-I understand that you are defecting from what I saw as a contradiction :rolleyes:
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Right. And what about the whole chain of events that followed after Finrod’s sacrifise? They aren’t of outermost significance? And what about Thingol’s request for it? That makes him the key character in the Quest for the Silmaril, since there would be no Quest.
Why-so you can make a adequate countering of the arguments for once? I did not say Finrod was the sole person in helping the Quest (I belive you stated something similair though)
but that if it wasn't for him the quest would have failed.
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While Finrod threw his people into war much earlier, hence bringing destruction and downfall of his once mighty kingdom
Finrod never 'threw his people into war'. He went with a sortie after the Barggolach, to save his brothers (Something that Turgon didn't consider, even though he was next to Dorthinion.)
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He was to build a hidden city to protect as long as possible the Elven race – he did it.
Yeah he sure 'protected it' when he didn't heed Ulmo's plans and he allowed for it's destruction.
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>> He was supposed to provide all the necessary conditions to preserve Elven lore as high-leveled as it used to be in the Blessed Realm – he did it
Eh? Quendi and Eldar tells us that finrod and many other lords of Nargothrond were great scholars.
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But did Finrod realized the real cause of his involvement into the quest of Beren and Luthien? I doubt it too!
Well, yes, he knew the war had no hope, and he knew that beren and Luthien's quest would save them.
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Ulmo got the Messenger he needed ! THAT was the aim! And it was achieved!
Yeah Ulmo sure didn't want to save all those Elven lives lost due to Turgon's pride/greed in it's fall.
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Then the recovery of the Silmaril becomes completely void of essence or/and importance!
Yeah, even though the only reason he got there was because of the Silmaril.
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He himself never aimed at recovering and getting into possession of a Silmaril !!! We shall have to admit this truth
A very selfless act, IMO .How many other Elven Kings would pass up the chance to get the Silmaril, instead deciding to die for a greater cause so others could win it? None-thats why the selfless Finrod was Ulmo's perfect weapon here, and why he was chosen.
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It IS a very interesting observation, yet a pure SPECULATION. Sorry! No facts to prove that this part of Finrod’s activities, in the times of the prosperity of his kingdom, was a part of Ulmo’s plans
And how can you assume it wasn't since your side claims that all things were set up by the Valar?