Did the Dunlendings get a raw deal from Gondor and the Rohirrim?

Another topic from the Debate Tournament.

Did the Dunlendings get a raw deal from Gondor and the Rohirrim or were they treated fairly?

Enjoy:)

If you just looked at the War of the Ring, I'd say no. After all they made war on Rohan, but were not ill-treated once they had lost. Indeed, I think that they benefitted ultimately from the defeat of Saruman and Sauron, because they would have benefitted from the improved security between Gondor and Arnor.

However, without a great weight of research to justify my opinion, I seem to recall that some of the Dunlendings originally lived in Rohan, but were kicked out when Cirion gave the land to Eorl the Young. That seems wrong, and was ultimately a mistake that Saruman used to stir them up against Rohan.

Well, to quote Gamling in the Two Towers, chapter Helms Deep:

'Death to the robbers of the North!' Such names they have for us. Not in half a thousand years have they forgotten their grievance that the lords of Gondor gave the Mark to Eorl the Young and made alliance with him. That old hatred Saruman has inflamed.'

So there was indeed not too much happiness on the part of the Dunlendings concerning the coming of the Rohirrim. But how the whole thing happened, I'm not sure if that described somewhere.

Well, the Rohirrim have a few grievances of their own, such as that guy Freca (who had 'much Dunlendish blood') who acted all haughty in front of Helm, so Helm smacked him one! Yeeeeeeaaaaaah!

OK, so that's not exactly a grievance.... :D

But I do think that it was a bit mean of Gondor to just kick the Dunlendings out of the land in which they lived. But then again, the Dunlendings didn't help the Gondorians at the Field of Celebrant, Rohan did. I think that the Rohirrim deserved the land more.

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Originally posted by Flammifer
But I do think that it was a bit mean of Gondor to just kick the Dunlendings out of the land in which they lived. But then again, the Dunlendings didn't help the Gondorians at the Field of Celebrant, Rohan did. I think that the Rohirrim deserved the land more.

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Did they ask the Dunlendings to help out? Anybody knows that? And I still think it's pretty unfair to say, 'here, this land is yours'. Like the people living there already don't matter.:rolleyes:

It's like the European Settlers in Africa and the western USA. 'This place is ours now.' 'What about these other people?' 'Their skin has colour, so they're not really people.':rolleyes:

Well, race did not really feature in this instance, but I understand your point.

I agree it was mean to the Dunlendings. But did Gondor ask Eorl for help? I wasn't sure that they did....but maybe I've missed something....

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Originally posted by Flammifer
Well, race did not really feature in this instance, but I understand your point.

I agree it was mean to the Dunlendings. But did Gondor ask Eorl for help? I wasn't sure that they did....but maybe I've missed something....

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Yeah, Cirion sent 6 messengers northwards to find Eorl. Only one of them made it though.

Btw, were the Dunedian kicked out when the land was given to the Rohirrm? Or were they kicked out when they started causing trouble with the Rohirrm?

Actually, if I remember correctly, the story is quite longer.

First, the Numenoreans, before the fall of Numenor, used to go to ME and plunder it heavily. One of the things that they did was to cut big chunks of forest to make ships, and the old dunledings suffered a lot because of that.

So it is not surprising that when the exiled Numenoreans asked for help, the dunledings were not exactly willing to give it, remembering how high-handedly they had been treated for many centuries. The fact that by reffusing to help the Numenoreans they were helping Sauron indirectly did not help matters in any direction.

And the ultimate insult of giving what the dunledings considered their lands to the rohirrim was to add warn oil to the smouldering fire... well what can I add.

Elanor2 hits the nail on the head. The lands later known as Dunland and Rohan were dense forests in the 2nd Age. This is described in the Akallabeth and in the following passages from the History of Galadriel and Celeborn in UT:

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Aldarion had a great hunger for timber, desiring to make Numenor into a great naval power; his felling of trees in Numenor had caused great dissensions. In voyages down the coasts he saw with wonder the greatforests, and he chose the estuary of the Gwathlo for the site of a new have entirely under Numenorean control (Gondor of course did not yet exist). ... The native people were fairly numerous and warlike, but they were forest-dwellers, scattered communities without central leadership. They were in awe of the Numenoreans, but they did not become hostile until the tree-felling became devastating. Then they attacked and ambushed the Numenoreans when they could, and the Numenoreans treated them as enemies, and became ruthless in their fellings, giving no thought to husbandry or replanting. [The native peoples] ...took refuge in the eastern mountains where afterwards was Dunland...

The devastation wrought by the Numenoreans was incalculable. For long years these lands were their chief source of timber, not only for their ship-yards at Lond Daer and elsewhrere, but also for Numenor itself. Shiploads innimerable passed west over the sea. The denuding of the lands was increased during the war in Eriador; for the exiled natives welcomed Sauron and hoped for his victory over the Men of the Sea.

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Even in The Two Towers, Treabeard makes some brief references to how much larger Fangorn once was, how it extended all the way north to Eriador and it was even joined with the Old Forest. That will give you an idea of the breadth of destruction wrought by the Numenoreans. No wonder the Dunlendings had no love for the Men of Westernesse. And when Gondor was created, Elendil and his people just took the lands settled by the Dunlendings as Gondor's western province.

In my mind, there are a lot of parallels between this story and what happened to the native Americans over the past 500 years or so.

I don't recall ever reading that Rohan was ever forested. It was mainly the lands either side of the Greyflood that the Numenorean felling laid waste to.

A seperate and pertinent point is the kinship of the Dunlendings to the folk cursed by Isildur for their failure to fight. Many of these peoples were long under the influence of Sauron, dating from the overweaning attitude of the Numenoreans.

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Posted by Snaga1

I don't recall ever reading that Rohan was ever forested

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Rohan was divided into two types of topography, the EastFold and Westfold were rocky areas with covered with green vegetation.
On the other hand most of the eastern and Northern Rohan, divided into East Emnet and West Emnet was green marshland/swampland/pastureland and grazing fields where tall grass grew.

A description of Rohan,

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White Rider, TTT

For many hours they rode on through the meads and riverlands. Often the grass was so high that it reached above the knees of the riders, and their steeds seemed to be swimming in a grey-green sea. They came upon many hidden pools, and broad acres of sedge waving above wet and treacherous bogs; but Shadowfax found the way, and the other horses followed in his swath. Slowly the sun fell from the sky down into the West. Looking out over the great plain, far away the riders saw it for a moment like a red fire sinking into the grass. Low upon the edge of sight shoulders of the mountains glinted red upon either side. A smoke seemed to rise up and darken the sun's disc to the hue of blood, as if it had kindled the grass as it passed down under the rim of earth.

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All the destruction during the Second age wasn't brought about by Numenorean's; Sauron and his servants also had a great part to play in it.

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Appendix D, The Port of Lond Daer, UT

The devastation wrought by the Númenóreans was incalculable. For long years these lands were their chief source of timber, not only for their ship-yards at Lond Daer and elsewhere, but also for Númenor itself. Shiploads innumerable passed west over the sea. The denuding of the lands was increased during the war in Eriador; for the exiled natives welcomed Sauron and hoped for his victory over the Men of the Sea. Sauron knew of the importance to his enemies of the Great Haven and its ship-yards. and he used these haters of Númenor as spies and guides for his raiders. He had not enough force to spare for any assault upon the forts at the Haven or along the banks of the Gwathló. but his raiders made much havoc on the fringe of the forests, setting fire in the woods and burning many of the great wood-stores of the Númenóreans.

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The forest Fangorn talks about is this,

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Ibid

But in the earlier days, at the time of the first explorations of the Númenóreans, the situation was quite different. Minbiriath and Enedwaith were occupied by vast and almost continuous forests, except in the central region of the Great Fens.

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Sauron and his army during the War of Elves and Sauron also destroyed a lot of forests,

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Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, UT

But as he ravaged the lands, slaying or drawing off all the small groups of Men and hunting the remaining Elves, many fled to swell Elrond's host to the northward.

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This is an interesting contrast.

One one hand he employs men of the locality, Lower Eriador and Enedwaith including Dunland to destroy Numenorean settlements, while on the other hand he himself slays the men of these areas which were believed to be his servants.

But it can be said that Sauron employed these people later in the second age when the shadow had grown on Numenorean's and they had become increasingly greedy.

These people were of the same race as the Men of Brethil of old of Beleriand but apparantly no regard of plausible kinship [There were few Brethilians among the Numenoreans] was kept.
Another person who comes into this equation is Tar Elmar.
Where in all this havoc did he live?
He had to live North of Umbar and South of the Lune and west of Mordor.
One can speculate a great deal and come up with many theories.

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And the ultimate insult of giving what the dunledings considered their lands to the rohirrim was to add warn oil to the smouldering fire... well what can I add.

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Exactly.

Numenorean's they were in awe of and initially probably revered too, but Rohirrim were another matter.

First of all, I think it would be interesting the discuss the general history of the Dunlendings (Who together with the Bree-Men and Men who resided in the White Mountains made up the Gwathuirim.

We hear in Of Dwarves and Menthat the Gwathuirim were ancestors of the Haladin, the Second (Or, as the latter case was, third) house of the Edain who, for the most part, resided in Brethil.

We can assume that the Drúedain who were the first Men to cross the Anduin (They had come from lands to the South of Mordor, and crossed from Northern Arnen (Ithilien), close to Cair Andros.

The Drúedain, we presume, accompanied the pre-Haladin on their journey to Beleriand. The Haladin entered Beleriand "some years" after the two other tribes. (Bëorians and Marachians.) The Bëorians and Marachians had been living on opposite sides of the Sea of Rhûn for some time, before migrating Westwards. (Problem of Ros,HoME 12)We never get to hear about the migrations of the 'Haladin' except for this passage in Of Dwarves and Men(HoME 12)

". Some years later, when the other folk were settled, the third folk of the Atani entered Beleriand.# They were probably more numerous than the Folk of Bëor, but no certain count of them was ever made; for they came secretly in small parties and hid in the woods of Ossiriand where the Elves showed them no friendship. Moreover they had strife among themselves, and Morgoth, now aware of the coming of hostile Men into Beleriand, sent his servants to afflict them. Those who eventually moved westward and entered into friendship and alliance with the Eldar were called the Folk of Haleth, for Haleth was the name of their chieftainess who led them to the woods north of Doriath where they were permitted to dwell" Of Dwarves and Men(HoME 12)

This, of course, contradicts the information given in the Latter Quenta Silmarillion(HoME 11), which was used in the chapter 'Of the Coming of Men Into the West' (Published Silmarillion), in which we are told the Haladin entered Beleriand soon after the folk of Bëor, which negates the version in which they entered "years after" the Bëorians and Marachians. As this is a modification of the earlier concept, it (to me) takes authority over the previous concept, in which they entered soon after the Bëorians and before the Marachians.

So evidently, the Gwathuirim (Dunlendings etc.) had been living in Eriador for some time before migrating North into Beleriand. Most of the Gwathuirim remained in their native lands and made up a great part of the indigenous population of Enedwaith, Minhiriath and large parts of what later became known as 'Gondor' (Namely the White Mountains and Anórien)

In Enedwaith and Minhiriath the Gwathuirim lived in (relative) peace and (relative) prosperity for a good time, that is, until the Númenóreans attempted to establish political (and pretty much everything else) hegemony upon the shores of Middle-Earth, for timber etc. We then hear that the Dunlendings, who previously "were in awe of the Númenóreans" began to attack the Númenóreans due to their reckless felling of the timber.

When did the Númenórean felling of timber get so bad that the Gwathuirim felt inclined to attack their reckless destruction?
It wouldn't have been during the time of Tar-Aldarion, when the timber-felling was not as bad as it became, or his daughter, Tar-Ancalimë who "neglected her fathers policies" or indeed until the time of Tar-Minastir, who sent aid to Gil-Galad when he was attacked by Sauron. It was in Tar-Minastir's time that some Númenóreans first began to reside in Middle-Earth, though the problem was probably propagated by his son, Tar-Ciryatan who "oppressed the men of Middle-Earth" and his son Tar-Atanamir who "extracted heavy tribute from the men of the coasts of Middle-Earth". As the pride and avarice of the Númenóreans grew, the problems would have worsened.

One can draw similarities with this and the story given in Tal-Elmar(HoME 12), in which the Númenórean peoples tell Elmar that the people of Agar must leave their lands-or be slain. Later, during the reign of Ar-Pharazôn people were brought to Sauron's temple to be sacrificed. (Buldar warns Tal-Elmar about the evil deeds and burnings the Númenórean’s afflicted upon their captives, but we are not told when or where Tal-Elmar was set, except it took place sometime in the Second Age.)


Some of the Gwathuirim aided Sauron (and any other enemy of Númenór) due to the repressive policies of the Númenóreans. Some of the Gwathuirim fled to Eryn Vorn and some fled to eastern Enedwaith. (Dunland)

"From Enedwaith they [the native people fleeing from the Númenóreans] took refuge in the eastern mountains where afterwards was Dunland"

The Haladin were said to have their own language. ((The language of the Bëorians and Marachians was said to be similar. They eventually took up Sindarin as their First Tongue) is derived from the language of the Bëorians and Marachians. The language of the Haladin had dwindled and so by the time of Húrin’s arrival in Brethil, the language had virtually disappeared. Wanderings of Húrin (HoME 11)and so the small remnants of Haladin that managed to survive and made the trip to Númenór spoke Sindarin and thus their tongue was forgotten. The Númenóreans, who regarded the Haladin’s tongue as uncouth, therefore equated them with Men of Darkness, and assailed them.

“Also it must be said that 'unfriendliness' to Númenóreans and their allies was not always due to the Shadow, but in later days to the actions of the Númenóreans themselves. Thus many of the forest-dwellers of the shorelands south of the Ered Luin, especially in Minhiriath, were as later historians recognized the kin of the Folk of Haleth; but they became bitter enemies of the Númenóreans, because of their ruthless treatment and their devastation of the forests, and this hatred remained unappeased in their descendants, causing them to join with any enemies of Númenor. In the Third Age their survivors were the people known in Rohan as the Dunlendings”

This hatred of the Númenóreans amongst the Gwathuirim continued well into the Third Age. The area of Enedwaith was said to be left alone and unpopulated by the Númenóreans, because of the hostilities of the Gwathuirim, though there was a port on the River Gwathló (Tharbad) and the North-South road that ran from Gondor to Arnor passed through Enedwaith. But Tharbad was abandoned because of the Great Plague and the North-South road soon fell out of use.

The Gwathuirim were held under the tutelage of Arnor and Gondor and they were too afraid to attack either country, but they weren't really bothered by either nation. Some of Gwathuirim who had excavated North spoke the Common Tongue. (The Bree-men were their ancestors.) The Gwathuirim who remained in Enedwaith clung to their own languages and traditions, until the War of The Ring. (Obviously, some of the Gwathuirim could speak Westron since they sent a emissary to King Ellesar. They may have had diplomatic relations with the Longbeard Dwarves when they moved to Dunland in the reign of Thror and there were inscriptions on the East-Gate in the language of the Dunlendings. Gimli is reluctant to fight the Dunlendings, telling Éomer that they were “over-large”, yet Gimli would have fought many “over-large” Men on the Pellenor Fields. It is probable that he didn’t want to slay the Dunlendings, because they were once on friendly terms with his ancestors.

The Dunlendings ceased to become subjects of Gondor with the death of Earnur, and the end of the line of Kings. Calenardhon was sparsely populated, and after the devastating Great Plague it’s population was virtually wiped out. The Dunlendings then began to drift into Calenardhon, as the Númenórean population began to move Eastwards to hold the fort’s on the River Anduin and the remaining Númenórean population became ostracized from Gondorian society and they began to merge with the Dunlendings and their population was often a mix of Númenórean and Dunlending blood. The Dunlendings, were residing in a part of Gondor that was effectively part of Gondor in name only, there was no significant Númenórean population, and the peoples had ceased to look to Minas Tirith as it’s capital. This was a quasi-independent Dunlending realm in Calenardhon, and was of little worth to Gondor.

The Ork/Easterling invasion of Calenardhon, and the Battle of Celebrant, in which Cirion gave Calenardhon to the Rohirrim meant the Dunlendings precarious residence in Calenardhon was under threat. The Rohirrim had several problems to deal with in their realm, from the remnants of Easterlings and the Dunlendings. Eorl, who resided in the Folde in the East-Mark (This was given to Eofor, Third Son of Brego, who moved into Medusled. Folde was the house of the captain of the east-Mark. Éomund, father of Éomer was a descendant of Eofor.) was slain in a battle with the Easterlings. When that threat was removed, the Rohhirm had to thrust the Dunlendings from their land and they were driven back to beyond the River Isen. Think about it, if you were thrust from your homes, firstly by the Númenóreans, your lands and livelihoods destroyed, and then forced to subjugation from the tyrannous Númenóreans and then, thrust from your *new* lands you would fell a sense of injustice too wouldn’t you? “Hey Mr. Númenórean man! Want to thrust me from my lands again? Sure-go right ahead! Why don’t you kill some of us just for kicks?”

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We can assume that the Drúedain who were the first Men to cross the Anduin (They had come from lands to the South of Mordor, and crossed from Northern Arnen (Ithilien), close to Cair Andros.

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what facts will we base this presumption on?

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what facts will we base this presumption on?

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Another note says that historians in Gondor believed that the first Men to cross the Anduin were indeed the Drúedain. They came (it was believed) from lands south of Mordor, but before they reached the coasts of Haradwaith they turned north into Ithilien, and eventually finding a way across the Anduin (probably near Cair Andros) settled in the vales of the White Mountains and the wooded lands at their northern feet

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The Drúedain (U.T)

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But I do think that it was a bit mean of Gondor to just kick the Dunlendings out of the land in which they lived. But then again, the Dunlendings didn't help the Gondorians at the Field of Celebrant, Rohan did. I think that the Rohirrim deserved the land m

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The quote above explains it all. Empire!

Gondor's population was dwindling so attack from the direction of Calenardhon was a major concern. Orcs where pushing south from the Misty Mountains.

The arrival of Eorl and his people and total victory over Gondor's enemies is a fantastic story. The honor and dignity displayed by both Eorl and Cirion in crafting a solution for Gondor's security needs as well as rewarding the Eorlingas (horses love grassy plains!) as told in 'Cirion and Eorld and the Friendship of Gondor and Rohan in Unfinished Tales adds incredible depth to the understanding of these two kingdoms.

And Aragorn is wise enough to renew the agreement with Éomer. Cirion was a truly wise steward. Aragorn was the first king to endorse the agreement.

The Rohirrim are a fierce and honorable people. You want them on your side of any confrontation!

I don't have time to look into it right now, but weren't the Dunlendings described as a mountain people? If so, is this by choice or by need?