The Corsairs and The Kin-strife

A few quick questions about the Kin-strife, I have some questions about the Corsairs too. But I'll post them at a later date.

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From 'Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion'

In 1250 Romendacil sent his son Valacar as an ambassador to dwell for a while with Vidugavia and make himself aquainted with the language, manners, and policies of the Northmen. But Valacar far exceeded his father's designs. He grew to love the Northern lands and people, and he married Vidumavi, daughter of Vidugavia. It was some years before he returned. From this Marriage came later the war of the Kin-strife.

'For the high men of Gondor already looked askance at the Northmen among them; and it was a thing unheard of before that the heir of the crown, or any son of the King, should wed one of lesser and alien race. There was already rebellion in the southern provinces when King Valacar grew old. His queen had been a fair and noble lady, but short lived according to the fate of lesser men, and the Dunedain feared that her descendents would prove the same and fall from the majesty of the kings of men. Also they were unwilling to except as lord her son, who though he was now called Eldacar, had been born in an alien country and was named in his youth Vinitharya, a name of his mother's people.'

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This, it seems, is the chief cause of the Kinstrife: Fear among the Nobilty of Northman blood in the Royal House. Does the cause go any deeper than that? Could it be said that Dunedain of Gondor also feared the spreading of Northman customs and culture? The center of the rebellion, it is said, was the southern, seaward parts of Gondor. A region which would have enjoyed much prosperity during the glory years of the Ship-Kings, an era in which Gondor had once again achieved some measure of the greatness which their Numenorean ancestors had possessed. So could the disaffection of the Southern Dunedain stem from the fact that the Ruling House of Gondor had turned it's eyes northward and felt that what power the southern lords held in royal court (I'm thinking of Castamir here) was falling away from them? Castamir was an ambitious man - was he using the Marriage of Valacar as a pretext for a power grab? Were the fears of the Rebels later justified by history or was the dilution of Numenorean blood inevitable in a wide land surrounded by many different races; or indeed necessary to insure the future of the Nation as a whole?

Any thoughts?

Of course you understand that this is going to take a while to research! I will try to get back with a reasoned response as soon as possible:)

I eagerly await your findings Ancalagon! I find this period of Gondor's history fascinating, and it will be nice to get some other thoughts on it.

VERY interesting ideas, Turgon! I don't know where I could look it up, I can only attempt UT; but I think one of the HoME would be more specific and knowledgable on the subject.
Very good post, I like your idea. All of those things are possible, it seems, but evidence to back them up would be great. Go Anc! :)
When I saw the thread I thought it was about the Kinstrife of the Elves in Valinor, but I soon saw my error. Maybe we should call this one 'Kinstrife II - the return of the kinstrifers'. :rolleyes:

Don't forget the appendices in ROTK, plenty about Stewards in there:) BTW Pontifex, were you not going to change your forum name?

*bump*

(wearing helmet this time:D )

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This, it seems, is the chief cause of the Kinstrife: Fear among the Nobilty of Northman blood in the Royal House. Does the cause go any deeper than that?

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1. We have to see why It is the main cause.

At that time the Numenorean's were pretty much passing through the wanning stage of the noontide of their realm. The Kingdom was rich, prospours, no immediate threat of war from outside, giving the pople plenty of time to eat, enjoy and conspirate.
By favoring the Numenorean's the Valar gave the Numenorean's a greater status then the ordinary men; they were appointed as the ruler of men, tall sea Kings and great captains. Of old, even when the shadow had not fallen on Numenorean's they maintained this dignity. Offcourse this dignity turned first into self-preservation and then into pride which ultimately led to the downfall of Numeneor. Most of the traits were inherited by the Gondorian's who afterall were the progeny of the ancient Numenorean's.
These Gondorian's were by no means evil according to the usual defination of the word but they did possess some traits of their own.
For me there might be three reasons for which the Gondorian's might not want the mingling of the lines.

1. The preservation of their ancient dignity; the belief that they were above the ordinary men; that they should be believed as helpers and Kings but never Equals, and the throwning of a mingled lineage king was negate this claim.

2. They wanted the power to remain in purely Numenorean hands; that they still believed that the other clans were much inferior to them and werent worthy of power-a matter inter-related with the first point.

3. Some of them possibly still had doubts about the sincerity of the Northern Princes and held them in suspicion. They wanted Gondor to remain a largely Numenorized Kingdom, and didn't want the Northern Culture to polute (as they believed) their traditions.

All these three points are inter-related with eachother.

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So could the disaffection of the Southern Dunedain stem from the fact that the Ruling House of Gondor had turned it's eyes northward and felt that what power the southern lords held in royal court (I'm thinking of Castamir here) was falling away from them?

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In practice I don't think this was applicable. Gondor's main threat came from the South, that is Harad and most of the wars they were waged were fought through ships and upon the coasts. If a King wanted to rule a country harmonously then he needed to have the assent and the nod of the Southern Lords; they just couldn't be ignored completely. I don't think It was the fear of losing importance in the eyes of the King.

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Castamir was an ambitious man - was he using the Marriage of Valacar as a pretext for a power grab?

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Probably; a common happening in our own real world. Afterall everyone desires to rule; and ruling such a great, vast realm would be a great honor.

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Were the fears of the Rebels later justified by history or was the dilution of Numenorean blood inevitable in a wide land surrounded by many different races; or indeed necessary to insure the future of the Nation as a whole?

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1. The fears of the nobles were justified by the history to some extent. The wanning continued and a continous decline was seen in the power of Gondor due to the loss of some of it's great inheritant civilization.

2. But I think that such a mixing was inevitable, since for starters the number of Numenorean's had always been few, and they were scarce in the Gondor lands except for the main towns. However steps should have been taken to ensure that in the course of the inevitable mingling steps should be taken which would make it ballanced and the loss less.

3. I agree.

Question During the Kin-Strife, given the circumstances, who do you think did Artherdain support? And do you think that the history had been different if Castamir had been successful for a longer period?

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but I think one of the HoME would be more specific and knowledgable on the subject

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This subject has nothing directly to do with HOME. All the relevant information is given in Appendixes and POME, HOME#12 is merely a retelling of those events.

Such an interesting topic, Tirgon!

But to tel the truth, while reading through the avallanche of questions I thought that in fact they answered themselves! :rolleyes: You know...such questions that in fact only state truths and don't actually seek for confirmation...

Now it is a matter of providing facts that would back up what is obvious. So far it's been going so well and when Anc comes with the results of his research it would be a real boom.