Celebrimbor and Gil-Galad

[Inderjit S]

Gil-Galad was the son of Orodreth (who himself was the son of Angrod) and dwelt in Nargothrond, whilst Celebrimbor was the son of Curufin, who remained in Nargothrond after his father and uncle left because he felt ashamed of their deeds. Now, in the Shibboleth of Fëanor, Gil-Galad is said to have escaped from Nargothrond after it's fall, though was a pretty young Elf, presumably Celebrimbor escaped in the same sortie, and I presume it would have been he, not Gil-Galad who led it, as he was the older and more battle wise Elf, and probably had a greater knowledge about the geography of Middle-Earth than Gil-Galad, it is also probable that he played a "big brother" role to Gil-Galad. What I am getting at is, do you think that Celebrimbor, who was the elder of Gil-Galad and probably aided in his escape from Nargothrond would feel somewhat bitter that his younger cousin gained the kingship? I am not to sure about the above since Fëanor’s house was the dispossessed, and some of Celebrimbor's uncles were still around when Gil-Galad became High-King, and so Celebrimbor didn't have much of a claim. But the more important question is, do you think Celebrimbor would have felt comfortable accepting orders from somebody who for long years may have been like a little brother to Celebrimbor, or at least would have looked upon Celebrimbor as his elder. Do you think this was part of the reason as to why he removed to Ost-in-Edhil or why he rejected the advice of Gil-Galad when he had his dealings with Sauron? Was it due to a sense of bitterness that he was being given orders from somebody who he deemed beneath him?

I would also like to clear another thing up-when Gil-Galad became the son of Orodreth, Celebrimbor was in Tolkien's mind no longer the son of Curufin and had never resided in Nargothrond, so the above scenario is mainly based on conjecture and piecing together parts of Tolkien's mythology, which in some parts are somewhat contradictory.

[Alcuin]

Exactly who was descended from whom and in exactly what way was a constantly shifting series of changing relationships in Tolkien’s work, as Christopher Tolkien and his collaborators document in The History of Middle Earth series.

At any rate, this seems to be the case: Gil-galad was the last King of the Noldor in Middle-earth. There were other Elven-kings after Gil-galad, such as Legolas’s father, Thranduil, but he was not Noldorin, nor were his subjects. Technically, Elrond was probably the High King of the Noldor in Middle-earth after the death of Gil-galad, but he never claimed the title. (Perhaps this was in part due to the fact that there were no “kingdoms” of the Noldor left to rule following the Last Alliance. Compare this to the decision by Aranarth, son of Arvedui of Fornost, to eschew the title of King of the Dúnedain of the North and take instead the title Chieftain of the Dúnedain.) This claim leaves unanswered who exactly “Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finrod” might be, and whether he had any such claims to the title of King. Gildor seems to be another loose end in the lists of who is whom.

Celebrimbor seems to have been a descendent of Fëanor. The story drifts towards the end of Tolkien’s life, and perhaps the old professor thought that Celebrimbor should be a great craftsman of Gondolin; but the Doors of Durin that Narvi made have “the Star of the House of Fëanor” on them drawn by Celebrimbor himself, and why he would do such a thing were he not of the House of Fëanor is a bit curious, though it could, no doubt, be ingeniously explained away by a determined expositor. (As for me, it makes more sense – and is far more prosaic – if Celebrimbor is a descendent of Fëanor.)

Celebrimbor did leave Lindon, the seat of the kingdom of Gil-galad. He led the smiths of the Noldor to Eregion, where he founded the city of Ost-in-Edhil and the Gwaith-i-Mírdain, the Guild of the Smiths, and began a series of works in Middle-Earth. (Perhaps the circle of stones in which the Company of the Ring faced the attack of the wolves between the attempt on the Redhorn Pass and the entry into Moria is the ruin of the tower of the Gwaith-i-Mírdain in Ost-in-Edhil.) He does not seem to have been at enmity with Gil-galad, but he does seem to have sought independence from Gil-galad’s rule. As you suggest, Inderjit, he might well have chafed at taking orders from someone perhaps far younger than he, since Celebrimbor could have been born in Valinor centuries, even millennia, before Gil-galad.

These problems of who-was-whom emerge several times: in whether there was one Glorfindel or two; the decent of Gil-galad; the ancestry of Aragorn (which was eventually settled before the end of the Lord of Rings; although a list of all the Lords of Andúnië has never been published); who Celeborn was, whether he was a relative of Thingol (he probably was by the mysterious brother of Elwë Thingol and Olwë, “Tickle-me” Elmo), and whether he was born in Valinor or Middle-earth; who Círdan was (that is published in Peoples of Middle-Earth) and whether he was kin to Elwë and Olwë, though how that might be is never even addressed; and what the proto-Quenya root word ros, as in Elros, meant. There are a lot of leaves on Niggles’ Tree that were painted over and over again: sometimes they are more distinct, but sometimes less as a result of the work, but the Tree itself is beautiful, and situated in a valley beloved by many.

Oh, yes, and there is still the problem of “Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finrod”.

[Inderjit S]

Excellent post (as usual) Alcuin.

I also agree that Celebrimbor as the descendant of Fëanor "fits nicely" and also makes sense as his is mentioned as being a "descendant of Fëanor" in the Appendix, as well as the reference to the Star of The House of Fëanor at the Moria Gates. (I see no other reason as to why any Elf would want the symbol of the House of Fëanor as his 'mark'-especially not a Teleri, or a Sindar of Doriath, as Celebrimbor late have became, in two versions.)

Gildor is indeed a confusing character-like Voronwë, both claim to be of the House if Finwë (or his descendants) but neither claim is validated or looked into by Tolkien-besides when LoTR was written the History of the Finwëans was as of yet pretty primitive, and I doubt whether Tolkien would have remembered a sentence uttered by an altogether insignificant character in a book full of more important ones.

On Círdan-I think he was probably a cousin of Elwë and Olwë, since he is cited to be their "kin" on several occasions, though he may have been part of a larger extended family, though he was certainly as old as them, or somewhat younger perhaps, since his name (Nowë) like the names of Elwë and Olwë were "obscure" being "formed far back in the history of Elven speech" and having no meaning would could later be deciphered or translated. (Though I think Olwë’s name, "branch-man" was a reference to his far from successful tree branch business, in which his displayed the kind of incompetence which one would come to expect from somebody whose idea of high art was to see how many squirrels he could molest in any given hour.)

I think Celeborn should be kept as the descendant of Elmo, rather than Olwë, the latter being too problematic and conflicting with the canon. As for "ros"-the reason which Tolkien gives that it fails because of the name "Cair Andros" (a Sindarin name) and so the suffix "ros" was a Sindarin word, but then again he does state that many of Gondor's Sindarin place-names were errors or confusions of other words....

I also wonder whether we will ever see the light of Tolkien's many unpublished (mainly linguistical) manuscripts?

[Kirinki54]

I just like to add that while in human eyes it might be natural to assume that an elder person could take offense by being ruled by a younger relative, it might not necessarily be so in elven eyes. Since the elves lived as long as the world lasted (except being killed) the relations within families and clans were extremely complex. Likely other factors than age must have been of greater importance.

[Grond]

...I would also like to clear another thing up-when Gil-Galad became the son of Orodreth, Celebrimbor was in Tolkien's mind no longer the son of Curufin and had never resided in Nargothrond, so the above scenario is mainly based on conjecture and piecing together parts of Tolkien's mythology, which in some parts are somewhat contradictory.

This whole line of logic is irrelavant since you posted the following on another thread.

from How Much Do You Love Feanor?
...he may have altered other things, such as taking the awakening of men back several thousand years, and making the world round since it's conception, but he didn't alter the Silmarillon narrative in any other way-to apply your logic (that Tolkien did in fact alter it's works, in fact his latter thoughts were at conflict with some of the facts in the Published Silmarillion) doesn't really add up, since Tolkien never considered changing the narrative in his latter years.

But... since you've proposed the question... I will answer. Celebrimbor was not chosen to be High-king. It is apparent from the writings that the role of King was herditary only if the populace was in agreement, hence the splitting of the factions of the Noldor when they marched in two separate groups as they left Valinor. It also explains the many kingships in Middle-earth. We had Feanor, Fingolfin, Thingol, the Sons of Feanor... heck... they're too many to list. The people (Elves) ultimately decided whom they would follow. One can only assume that the remaining Noldor in Middle-earth chose Gil-galad as their King and those who chose not to follow him went off with Celebrimbor in search of their own kingdom, which they found. It is also apparent that even these wanderers acknowledged Gil-galad as High-king since Celebrimbor sent two of the Great Rings to Gil-galad for safe keeping.

Cheers,

grond

[Inderjit S]

This whole line of logic is irrelavant since you posted the following on another thread.

Pardon me, but how does that contradict what I said in a previous thread-I stated he never wanted to change the narrative as in the general story-tidbits such as the parentage of this or that character weren't really overly-big 'changes', so I don't see how it is 'irrelavant' (I was giving some background information) and how you can link that with the quote you have provided, which is taken out of context. On Noldorin kingships-there were four-Fingon, Finrod, Maedhros and Turgon after Fingolfin's death, after which Finrod prefixed 'Fin' to his fathers name, thus legitmizing him as the "High-king" of the Noldor. Orodreth took over his uncles realm after he died.