Tolkien as linguist

[Barliman Butterbur]

Gotmog,Barliman,Thorondor,Inderjit what are you?Where have you found out information about outstanding linguists and their theories?Why are you interested in this subject?Why are you fond of philosophy?
And some riddles for you...

Who wrote "Faust"?
Where is Ghana?
What is the official language of Jibouti?
Enumerate great british writers
Who was the first real king of England?What was his name?

I think now, Alisa, it is your turn. You generate questions and riddles with consummate ease, yet you are woefully deficient in supplying any answers of your own. Is this a game with you?

We four guys have made somewhat a game of our own here which evolved past your questions. My question to you: Why are you asking these questions, just to see what we will say? You remind me of a beginning chess player who pushes pieces around just to see what will happen...

Barley

[Barliman Butterbur]

And as you're on it, Gotmog, Barliman, Thorondor, Inderjit:

What are the philosophical consequences of spin-parity and who eventually disproved the first EPR experiment (a hint: EPR=Einstein, Podolsky, Rosen)?

Well, I actually tried to find out something about the first part of your question — but everywhere I went on the Internet I was denied entrance to anything that might supply an answer! What kind of classified info are we dealing with here? You’re scaring me, Walter...

What were the Indo-European influences on Pelasgian culture and their myths?

I’m afraid this will have to do:

“Pelasgians” From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ancient Greek writers used the name "Pelasgians" (Gk. Pelasgoí, s. Pelasgós) to refer to groups of people who preceded the Hellenes and still dwelt in several locations in mainland Greece, Crete, and other regions of the Aegean, as neighbors of the Hellenes, into the 5th century. The Greek references to Pelasgians are unanimously in agreement that they spoke a language or dialect that was different enough from Greek dialects so as not to be intelligible to Hellenes. Whether Pelasgian was pre-Indo-European or not, and the extent to which Pelasgian was a single language are modern disputes that are colored by contemporary nationalist issues. Scholars have since come to use the term "Pelasgian", somewhat indiscriminately, to indicate all the autochthonous inhabitants of these lands before the arrival of the Greeks, and in recent times some may apply "Pelasgian" to the indigenous, pre-Indo-European peoples of Anatolia as well.”

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgian

What is the particle size frequency distribution of ground coffee and how does the laser diffractometry (which is used to measure it) work?

Particle Size Analysis No.66

Measurement of Particle Size Distribution of Canned Black Coffee

In recent years, particle size distribution measurement has also been frequently performed in the food industry for the purposes of research and development and quality control, etc. The importance of particle size measurement has been widely recognized, especially in fields relating to beverages, because the distribution and concentration ratio of particulates contained in beverages greatly influence their taste.

The report in this issue is dedicated to an introduction of tests of particle size distribution of canned black coffee (4 brands) analyzed with the Laser Diffraction Particle Size Analyzer SALD-2101.

<snip>

The intensity distribution of scattered light from the sample also provides information about the particle concentration, such that the greater the particle quantity, the higher the intensity of the scattered light. [T]here is a significant difference in particle quantity among the four brands of canned coffee. People say that the bitterness of coffee depends on the particle quantity and size distribution. (see chart below)

Source: http://www.shimadzu.com.br/analitica...es/sald/66.pdf

God’s Holy Wounds! Would that politicians put as much effort into ridding the world of war, poverty, disease and famine — to say nothing of themselves! (It’s a good thing I’m retired — otherwise I’d never have the time to get into this stuff...) Actually this whole thing reminds me of something that happened in a Los Angeles divorce court not long ago: During a divorce trial, a woman came out of nowhere bearing a steaming pot of coffee, and proceeded to walk through the courtroom with it, disrupting the entire proceedings.

"Young woman, what are you doing here with that coffeepot???!!!" roared the judge.

"Your honor, I'm getting a divorce, and these are my grounds!"

What colo(u)r has the 3rd pair of socks (from the left) in my drawer?

Well that’s obvious: That pair of socks is mismatched and each sock is a different colo(u)r! Cheap trickery will get you nowhere, Walter! (I know about the socks because I was able to distance-view them using my specially-configured orgone box, coupled in parallel with my Wimshurst static electricity generator, connected to special nodes attached to my skull going directly into my corpus collosum therebye utilizing both halves of my brain.)

You can't answer all of those? Shame on you!

Who says????!!! (Just — give me a moment — I must calm down...)

But still, I am somehow disappointed that good Alisia hasn't graced me (or better: any of the questions in this post) with an answer, I'm sure we all could benefit a lot from her/his deep insight on linguistic matters regarding Tolkien's works...

Somehow I doubt it...

Barley

[Gothmog]

Gotmog,Barliman,Thorondor,Inderjit what are you?Where have you found out information about outstanding linguists and their theories?Why are you interested in this subject?Why are you fond of philosophy?
And some riddles for you...

Who wrote "Faust"?
Where is Ghana?
What is the official language of Jibouti?
Enumerate great british writers
Who was the first real king of England?What was his name?

Perhaps I should first remind you of my small contribution to this thread.

Do all of us 'consider Tolkien to be an outstanding linguist'?

For my part I consider him to have been a very good linguist but an outstanding storyteller who was able to tell his stories equally well by voice or printed word.

One reason that he did not 'create a fundamental theory' such as those you mentioned is that he was busy with other concerns Most noteably The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings Though it could be said that the work he did on his invented Elven Languages and the way they changed through time was an illustration of a fundamental theory of language development.

So on to your questions.
what are you?
A person of small knowledge and less wisdom.

Where have you found out information about outstanding linguists and their theories?
I have no knowledge of any outstanding linguists nor indeed what constitutes such a being. As for theories, I have never read nor commented on any.

Why are you interested in this subject?
I am not. I was interested in the manner in which you first posted.

Why are you fond of philosophy?
It helps to fill in that portion of the space/time between what we refer to as birth and death. It also helps give my thumbs a rest from twiddling.

[Walter]

Just in case anyone hasn't noticed, my previous post was made "tongue-firmly-in-cheek"!

Nonetheless I appreciate your Googleing-efforts Barley , but since I already feel guilty of having led this thread astray at least once, I'd rather not reply here, after all this used to be one of the more serious Tolkienish sections..

But if, maybe, a moderator can split this thread and move the off-topic parts -- beginning with the discussion of Socrates' .... umm ... debt -- to S&B, then I would reply to your questions, Barley - if you're interested, that is....

[Gothmog]

Yes this is intended as a more serious section. And hopefully This will turn into an interesting and informative thread with the help of the thread starter.

I Have split the Thread. The new thread can be foundHere
I have edited a couple of posts to split them to fit the threads.

I have left in the Tounge in Cheek question and Barly's answer to show that even in fun a lot of work is put in by the members to answer questions as fully as possible.

[AlisaGoldielock]

Excuse me my being absent!Let's carry on.What are your professions?May be all of your are linguists as me.If it is so--no quiestions.To know About Chomsky & Potebnia is your duty.
Revenons a nos moutons!In Russia many linguists think Tolkien as neither good linguist,nor good writer.GREAT linguist must create a fundamental theory or make an outstanding discovery.

[Gothmog]

Excuse me my being absent!Let's carry on.What are your professions?May be all of your are linguists as me.If it is so--no quiestions.To know About Chomsky & Potebnia is your duty.
Revenons a nos moutons!In Russia many linguists think Tolkien as neither good linguist,nor good writer.GREAT linguist must create a fundamental theory or make an outstanding discovery.

I have already answered you question as to what I am. Seems that you could not find the post. It is four posts above this one.

Well each person is entitled to make up their own mind as to the value of the linguistic work of Tolkien and also that of his other books. However, personally I am not the least bit interested in hearing vauge second-hand comments about 'many linguists in Russia' none of which are on-site to confirm the claim.

Perhaps you would be willing to provide us with your own personal view of Tolkien as a Linguist, Philologist and writer.

Views on what is 'Greatness' vary greatly.

[Walter]

Excuse me my being absent!Let's carry on.

No problem...

How about - for a start - you carefully re-read this thread? You will find that you have been asked some questions in return. And then - maybe - you could grace some of us with an answer?

[AlisaGoldielock]

future interpretress!But who are all of you?Engineers?teachers?computer programmers?And by, the way not to answer my riddles?especialy last one is a kind of disgrace.Not to know your history...

[Gothmog]

future interpretress!But who are all of you?Engineers?teachers?computer programmers?And by, the way not to answer my riddles?especialy last one is a kind of disgrace.Not to know your history...

Why is it important to you what each of us are?

And by the way, not to answer your 'riddles' is not a disgrace of any kind. It was a choice. They were un-connected to Tolkien or this thread.

As for your personal questions, each answered in the manner they prefered either with comments or silence.

I will repeat my answers in this post as you seem not to have noticed them.

So on to your questions.
what are you?
A person of small knowledge and less wisdom.

Where have you found out information about outstanding linguists and their theories?
I have no knowledge of any outstanding linguists nor indeed what constitutes such a being. As for theories, I have never read nor commented on any.

Why are you interested in this subject?
I am not. I was interested in the manner in which you first posted.

Why are you fond of philosophy?
It helps to fill in that portion of the space/time between what we refer to as birth and death. It also helps give my thumbs a rest from twiddling.

Perhaps my answers in some way disqualify me from participating in this discussion? If so perhaps you could tell me why?

[Walter]

I have also issued a few questions in a previous post, Alisa

As soon as you have answered them, I'll gladly go on conversing with you...

Hello AlisaGoldielock

Well I for one certainly did consider Tolkien an outstanding linguist. But even more so an outstanding philologist...

But then again, I am easily impressed, dimwit that I am, when someone says something that sounds clever or learned.

Was I mistaken, was my assumption regarding Tolkien's renown as a linguist and philologist unwarranted?

Now I don't even dare trying to spell one of those tongue-breaking words, but maybe you can enlighten us some, what these fundamental theories are and when something is a considered a "fundamental theory"?





Oh ... and when you mention Potebnia, why not Barfield or Cassirer? Or why Chomsky and not Ogden and Richards? I'm just curious...

And have you perchance read Tolkien's essay "A secret vice" or maybe his article 'Sigelwara Land' published in Medium Aevum (1932 resp. 1934)? Did you get an idea what it was, Tolkien was after?

I would love to hear what a learned linguist has to say about Tolkien's approach to language, its origins and its connexion to the early myths. And also why his approaches regarding this - or also regarding artificial languages - should not be considered a "fundamental theory"?

Also, I was of the impression that Tolkien's various artificial languages - if not complete - get a lot of attention. I don't know whether or not Esperanto gets more...

Looking forward to your elaborations...

----
Edit:

P.S.: That one term of yours "glo..." "glosso..." ... anyway, that word next to H(j)elmslev ... had me quite puzzled. "Glosso" & "semantics" tried to figure the meaning of "tongue-semantics"...

Luckily glossematic did the trick for me, then...

[AlisaGoldielock]

that you are NOT ENGLISHMEN AT ALL!I think all of you are my former compatriots.Gotmog is from Moscow,Thorondor is from Saint-Petersburg,Barliman Butterbur is a Tatar from Kazan and Inderjit is from Ulan-Ude.Englishmen who are not linguists can know nothing about Potebnia and Chomsky.

[Gothmog]

that you are NOT ENGLISHMEN AT ALL!I think all of you are my former compatriots.Gotmog is from Moscow,Thorondor is from Saint-Petersburg,Barliman Butterbur is a Tatar from Kazan and Inderjit is from Ulan-Ude.Englishmen who are not linguists can know nothing about Potebnia and Chomsky.

Well you are correct that I am not an Englishman. However, I am not one of your former compartiots and am not from Moscow. I am infact Welsh and come from South Wales in the UK.

While I do know nothing about Potebnia and Chomsky myself, there are many on this board who's wide-ranging interests do. I am however willing to learn of new ideas about Tolkien and his works.

[Thorondor_]

Gotmog is from Moscow,Thorondor is from Saint-Petersburg,Barliman Butterbur is a Tatar from Kazan and Inderjit is from Ulan-Ude

Say what??