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Thread: Manwe and the Second Perosn of The Trinity.

  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2011

    Manwe and the Second Perosn of The Trinity.

    There are times, when studying the theology presented in Tolkien's work, that I find myself wondering if Manwe is supposed to essentially be God The Son, or The Logos.

    The main problem I have with this, is that Manwe is a created being, while The Logos is not. But still he rules the Anuir with seemingly divine Authority, and his being in a sense a "Twin" of Melkor could be inspired by Mormonism where Jesus and Lucifer are brothers.

    Also, when looking at Hindu Paralels Manwe seems allot like Vishnu (The color Blue, being the Preserver of the World), who often in comparative mythology compared to the 2nd Person of the Trinity (With Braman being the first) and his Avatars to Jesus.

    I realize the Trinity was never something Tolkien wanted to get into, it would have complicated things allot more, even Lewis couldn't address well in his fictional Cosmologies either.
    Last edited by Mithrandir-Olor; 08-16-2013 at 08:56 AM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Wootton Major

    Re: Manwe and the Second Perosn of The Trinity.

    I don't think that Manwe could be considered part of the Triune God. The Triune God is 3 equal aspects of 1 God. Manwe was the king of several gods (I don't remember the exact number) with a creator (Eru) above him.
    'Twas brillig and the slithy toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe. Lewis Carroll

    We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose. Romans 8:28

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Toronto, Canada

    Re: Manwe and the Second Perosn of The Trinity.

    Manw and the other Valar are mentioned by Tolkien in his letter of Milton Waldman, letter 131 in Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, Tolkien says, in part:
    On the side of mere narrative device, this is, of course, meant to provide beings of the same order as the ‘gods’ of higher mythology, which can be accepted – well, shall we say baldly, by a mind that believes in the Blessed Trinity.

    Tolkien never suggests that Eru is one of these Valar. Eru, their creator, is far above them. And not enough is told of Eru to suggest that any of Tolkien’s characters from creation to the early years of the Fourth Age ever imagined him in Triune Form.

    Manw is much more like the angel St. Michael in traditional Christian mythology, although I am unaware that anyone asked Tolkien whether they were supposed to be identical. In the Christian Biblical Book of Revelations, St. Michael Michael leads God’s armies against Satan's forces. During the war in heaven St. Michael defeats Satan.

    St. Michael is also comparable with Tulkas who casts down Morgoth in the First War and with Enw who is leader of the host who captures Melkor at the end of the First Age.

    Tolkien in his inventions largely avoids traditions that have become part of most forms of Christianity or Judaism. Tolkien provides no figure who must be St. Michael and no creation in six days followed by God resting on the seventh day. The seven-day Nmenrian week is represented as in origin an adaptation of the six-day Eldarin week and, at least among the Hobbits the partial day of rest at the end of the week is equated with Friday, as in the Muslim calendar.

    The Hindu Trinity is largely an intellectual construct to unify the separate cults of Vishnu and Shiva, adding Brahma the creator who seems to be a priestly idea, never much worshipped. In mythological tales Brahma is almost always subordinate to either Vishnu or Shiva. Some Hindus worship mainly Vishnu, mostly under his incarnation of Krishna, some worship mainly Shiva, and some worship mainly the goddess Durga or Kali. All these deities are normally recognized by all worshippers.

    In Hindu religious thinking, Vishnu/Shiva would be identified with Eru and and the Valar with Indra and his circle of gods, these gods mostly being very seldom worshipped. But in the tales Indra is mostly much degraded and is forced to rely on Vishnu or Shiva when any crisis occurs in the heavens.
    Last edited by jallan; 04-21-2012 at 04:22 PM.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2011

    Re: Manwe and the Second Perosn of The Trinity.

    It is also said though that all of the Valar are based on aspect of Eru's "Mind". Sometimes the Silmarilion theology sounds kind like Neo-Platoism.
    Last edited by Mithrandir-Olor; 08-06-2013 at 12:11 AM.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2011

    Re: Manwe and the Second Perosn of The Trinity.

    Mithrandir-Olor I touched heavily on this in a post I made the other day which was called When is a God not a God. My personal conclusions were very similar to Jallan's.
    'No!' said Thorin. There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West. Some courage and some wisdom, blended in measure. If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. But sad or merry, I must leave it now. Farewell!'
    The final words of Thorin Okenshield

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