View Poll Results: Did you like the scene of Boromir's death better in the book or in the movie?

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  • I think Tolkien did a better job.

    12 54.55%
  • I think PJ did a better job.

    10 45.45%
  • I didn't like that scene either way.

    0 0%
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Thread: Boromir's Death

  1. #166
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    Originally posted by Mrs. Maggott
    My dear Joxy, welcome back!....
    It's a different "debate" over there than you are having with the always polite and gentle Talimon.
    Many thanks and my best wishes to you! I have been enjoying the two week festive season but am happy to be back among those who almost uniquivocally admire Tolkien's books, but admire to differing degrees the film that uses their title!
    Although for once my latest disagreement with the erudite and good-natured (how the attributes are flowing today!) T was strongly felt, I am glad you agree that we keep up a civilised level of discussion in this area!
    I have not seen TTT, and have no immediate prospect of doing so, but will nevertheless look into its area to sample its different atmosphere....
    Last edited by joxy; 01-04-2003 at 05:36 PM.

  2. #167
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    Originally posted by joxy
    WHAT was what you think T "meant" to convey?
    And you seriously think T failed to convey what he meant to convey?
    I think Tolkien meant to convey the sadness of Boromir's death because even though he was corrupted by the ring, he was a still a mighty man of valor and courage. However, in reading the books, I just didn't feel the way that Tolkien seemed to expect (as evidenced by Aragorn, and Legolas song of mourning). I felt that Boromir's death was justly deserved for his attempt to take the ring. So Tolkien failed to convey what was necessary to forgive the characters faults and still mourn his passing.

    PJ conveyed all of that in a way that radically changed my opinion of Boromir.

    JoS

  3. #168
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    I wouldn't say Tolkien "failed" to convey that, but was rather subtle about it. Personaly I was much more touched by PJ's Boromir as well, but I don't think that is any sort of mark against Tolkiens Boromir. In the context of the book you were meant to feel as much (or as little) sympathy as Tolkien included (as far as I'm concerend).
    "We have flown the air like birds and swum the sea like fishes, but have yet to learn the simple act of walking the earth like brothers."

    Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

  4. #169
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    A Christian allegory from Tolkien IMHO. (Even though it is claimed that Tolkien insists there are no allegories.) Borimir (being the only man in the Fellowship) represents man. Man is depicted by Tolkien as being depraved, with the only exception being Aragorn. Compare contrast to elves, all that is fair and noble and good.

    The Ring represents evil, of course. Man, (as portrayed by Borimir), being depraved, is tempted towards evil things (in this case, power). In this case he succumbs to the temptation and attempts to steal from Frodo in order to wield it's power.

    Realizing his folly he has tremendous guilt, repents and assuages his guilt in fierce defense of Merry and Pippin and finally receives forgiveness from Aragorn before his death. Thus dying in honor.

    I thought the movie portrayed this very well.

  5. #170
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    Maybe Talimon is a plant from New Line Cinema.

  6. #171
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    Originally posted by quickbeam
    Maybe Talimon is a plant from New Line Cinema.
    no doubt about it lol

  7. #172
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    Originally posted by Gimmi
    A Christian allegory from Tolkien IMHO. (Even though it is claimed that Tolkien insists there are no allegories.) Borimir (being the only man in the Fellowship) represents man. Man is depicted by Tolkien as being depraved, with the only exception being Aragorn. Compare contrast to elves, all that is fair and noble and good.

    The Ring represents evil, of course. Man, (as portrayed by Borimir), being depraved, is tempted towards evil things (in this case, power). In this case he succumbs to the temptation and attempts to steal from Frodo in order to wield it's power.

    Realizing his folly he has tremendous guilt, repents and assuages his guilt in fierce defense of Merry and Pippin and finally receives forgiveness from Aragorn before his death. Thus dying in honor.

    I thought the movie portrayed this very well.
    Aragorn is also a man and a man who not only does not succumb to the lure of the Ring but who has a sort of "claim" upon it "'Then it belongs to you, and not to me at all!' cried Frodo in amazement, springing to his feet, as if he expected the Ring to be demanded at once. 'It does not belong to either of us,' said Aragorn; 'but it has been ordained that you should hold it for a while.'" The Council of Elrond, FOTR; LOTR.

    Boromir falls to the Ring after a long struggle that begins in that same Council. He never really believes that the Ring cannot be used as a weapon against the Enemy although he apparently accepts that explanation. The problem becomes worse after Gandalf's fall since even Aragorn believes that Gandalf was the Quest's only hope of success: "'Farewell, Gandalf!' he cried. 'Did I not say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware? Alas that I spoke true! What hope have we without you?'" Therefore, it is not surprising that Boromir now sees the matter as sending the Ring in the hands of a "witless" halfling into Sauron's hands (and thus bringing about a new and apparently endless "dark age") and taking the Ring himself to use in defense of Gondor.

    Actually, when one does not have the luxury of foreknowledge, Boromir's decision makes complete sense, especially given the fact that he really does not believe that the Ring cannot be used. It is only after he suffers the full extent of the Ring's poison, that Denethor's son realizes just how evil the Ring is and that, truly, it cannot be used without destroying anyone attempting to do so. Of course, Boromir is able to "redeem" his "fall" by his valient defense of the two younger hobbits and dies a noble death. Faramir assures the reader of that with his account of Boromir's funeral bower filled with the clear waters of the Anduin: "'An awe fell on me, for a pale light was round it. But I rose and went to the bank, and began to walk out into the stream, for I was drawn towards it. Then the boat turned towards me, and stayed it pace, and floated slowly by within my hand's reach, yet I durst not handle it. It waded deep, as if it were heavily burdened, and it seemed to me as it passed undermy gaze that it was almost filled with clear water, from which came the light; and lapped in the water a warrior lay asleep. A broken sword was on his knee. I say many wounds on him. It was Boromir, my brother, dead. I knew his gear, his sword, his beloved face. One thing only I missed: his horn. One thing only I knew not: a fair belt, as it were of linked golden leaves, about his waist. Boromir! I cried. Where is thy horn? Whither goest thou? O Boromir! But he was gone. The boat turned into the stream and passed glimmering on into the night."'
    Mrs. M., Queen of Farmer's Wives

  8. #173
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    Thanks for the response Mrs. Maggot! Very well put. I'll never forget the first time I read LOTR and how thoroughly I enjoyed it. The last time I thought it would make a more interesting read by looking for Christian allegories since I already knew the story so well. I decided to do this after reading C.S. Lewis' "Mere Christianity" and "The Screwtape Letters". (One of those books was dedicated to Tolkien.) I understand the two belonged to the same writer's guild (the Inkspots???) so I got the idea.

    Yes Aragorn was a man, bonehead slight on my part. Looking for an allegory I see Aragorn as "king of kings", saviour of mankind, above temptation... yes, similar attributes to Christ (but not since Aragorn was only a man and not Christ.) Borimir represented fallen man able to be saved on his death bed. It was Aragorn to whom Borimir "confessed". Your post supports this allegory IMO. Often times we struggle with sin, able to defend it, finally falling to it. But always able to repent and ask forgiveness. I think the movie did a fine job of not destroying this allegory.

    Farimir, on the other hand, represented "saved" man, (fair, wise and noble) not succombed to the temptation of the ring although he could have easily taken it at any point under his guard (much easier than Borimir).

    I apologize if I'm sounding preachy. Definately not my intent, which is to only bring this up as "food for thought" and generate comments and criticisms. I would find them interesting. Thanks.

  9. #174
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    Originally posted by Gimmi
    Thanks for the response Mrs. Maggot! Very well put. I'll never forget the first time I read LOTR and how thoroughly I enjoyed it. The last time I thought it would make a more interesting read by looking for Christian allegories since I already knew the story so well. I decided to do this after reading C.S. Lewis' "Mere Christianity" and "The Screwtape Letters". (One of those books was dedicated to Tolkien.) I understand the two belonged to the same writer's guild (the Inkspots???) so I got the idea.

    Yes Aragorn was a man, bonehead slight on my part. Looking for an allegory I see Aragorn as "king of kings", saviour of mankind, above temptation... yes, similar attributes to Christ (but not since Aragorn was only a man and not Christ.) Borimir represented fallen man able to be saved on his death bed. It was Aragorn to whom Borimir "confessed". Your post supports this allegory IMO. Often times we struggle with sin, able to defend it, finally falling to it. But always able to repent and ask forgiveness. I think the movie did a fine job of not destroying this allegory.

    Farimir, on the other hand, represented "saved" man, (fair, wise and noble) not succombed to the temptation of the ring although he could have easily taken it at any point under his guard (much easier than Borimir).

    I apologize if I'm sounding preachy. Definately not my intent, which is to only bring this up as "food for thought" and generate comments and criticisms. I would find them interesting. Thanks.
    Not at all "preachy". Aragorn was, of course, the "hidden king" so his character has many Christological applications. It is not, however, that he is "above" or "beyond" temptation. After all, even Gandalf the Gray was not beyond temptation. Of course, whether as "the White" he would be is another thing. Howver, when he rides with the King in Rohan, he does say that the Ring is fortunately "beyond" them and so its temptation has been removed, but whether that applies to him personally or only to the desparate men of Rohan and Gondor is not said unless I missed it somewhere (which is more than possible!). Aragorn is doubtless tempted in many things, but his knowledge of the Ring (from bitter familial memory) makes it difficult for him to be tempted. After all, if you know that its blandishments are a cheat, only a fool would listen to them!

    Nice to read and respond to your posts! (Oh, and it was "The Inklings")
    Mrs. M., Queen of Farmer's Wives

  10. #175
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    Originally posted by JoS Metadi
    I think Tolkien meant to convey the sadness of Boromir's death....
    Tolkien failed to convey what was necessary to forgive the characters faults and still mourn his passing.
    PJ conveyed all of that in a way that radically changed my opinion of Boromir.
    Iwould imagine any author would mean to convey the sadness of the death of one of his characters. What is so remarkable about that?
    T had Aragorn tell Boromir he had not failed, and he said to him "Be at peace". How much more than that was necessary? Boromir was full of arrows, and "at death's door", at the time, so hardly in any condition to indulge in a long confession and absolution scene.
    PJ simply combined two scenes straight from the books to form Boromir's death scene, a perfectly reasonable thing to do. He just added a little padding in the form of melodramatic wording; how did that small addition to the dialogues in the book make you change your opinion so radically?

  11. #176
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    I think, joxy, that it is mostly Sean Beans great acting. He somehow makes Boromir a charachter that you can actualy sympathize with and understand. The way he emphasizes, "I ask only for the strength to defend my people!" really made sense to me. He just sold his charachters arguement very clearly, whereas in the book he seemed to be completely blind. Which of course he was, to a certain extent, but I think being able to empathize with a charachter goes a long way. It makes him more believeable, which makes his failure more tradgic (at least for me).
    "We have flown the air like birds and swum the sea like fishes, but have yet to learn the simple act of walking the earth like brothers."

    Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

  12. #177
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    Originally posted by Talimon
    I think, joxy, that it is mostly Sean Beans great acting. He somehow makes Boromir a charachter that you can actualy sympathize with and understand. The way he emphasizes, "I ask only for the strength to defend my people!" really made sense to me. He just sold his charachters arguement very clearly, whereas in the book he seemed to be completely blind. Which of course he was, to a certain extent, but I think being able to empathize with a charachter goes a long way. It makes him more believeable, which makes his failure more tradgic (at least for me).
    I don't think Boromir was all that blind in the book. I think he struggled greatly with his desire for the Ring in both book and film. Probably the telling blow was Gandalf's fall. Certainly in the book, Aragorn despaired with the Wizard's apparent death. He had intended to go to Minas Tirith with Boromir. Now, he felt himself obligated to go to Mordor with Frodo. Boromir, too, believed that the Quest was doomed with the Wizard's fall and therefore, he had the added burden of believing that he was watching the Ring going straight to Sauron since what hope was there in just a "halfwit" hobbit? His fall to the lure of the Ring is frequently misunderstood as being just the desire to possess it when, in fact, it also included his (and probably Aragorn's) despair of the success of the Quest.

    Furthermore, Boromir was a lordly man, true, but also one whom we are led to believe was also humane and kindly. I know that the two young hobbits became very fond of him in both the book and the film and he certainly sacrificed everything for them - and one believes it was not just because he was "ordered" to do it. In the film, however, we get to seethe personal interaction (the "swordsmanship instruction" for instance) which gives the viewer a much more intimate connection to the man. That sort of thing isn't possible in a book, however well written. We could look into the man's eyes and see his human reaction. Sympathy is much easier engendered in a visual medium than through the printed page.

    Jackson did well with Boromir, very well. It's sad that he was less successful portraying his very different brother. One would have thought that he would have relished making a diametric character just for the sake of comparison if nothing else.
    Mrs. M., Queen of Farmer's Wives

  13. #178
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    Originally posted by Mrs. Maggott
    I don't think Boromir was all that blind in the book....
    In the film, however, we get to see the personal interaction (the "swordsmanship instruction" for instance) which gives the viewer a much more intimate connection to the man.
    Of course I totally agree about the "blindness".
    I hope you have other examples for that other idea from the film though. I thoroughly dislike the sword practice:
    it carries on the childish character of P&M (so, of course, it's OK for the film!), but now brings Boromir to an equivalent level, like a kindly uncle who is really a big tough guy but who takes a delight (rather questionable these days) in letting his nephews kick and jump on him. It does have a saving grace, in Sam's disdainful look as he observes, and now in Aragorn's reaction. As I gather you like the scene, we disagree for once - a very healthy sign!

  14. #179
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    Originally posted by Talimon
    ....it is mostly Sean Beans great acting....
    He just sold his character's argument very clearly, whereas in the book he seemed to be completely blind.
    I totally agree, of course, about SB's qualities as an actor. He is giving some first-class Shakespeare on the London stage right now - and he comes from a city only a few miles from mine, so I would have to say that anyway!
    He even ALMOST made the "brother, captain, king" line, which ought to have been in a chaep Victorian melodrama, seem feasible in a 21st century film - there's good acting for you!
    I don't understand what you mean about being blind. As I read his scene with Frodo, his account of himself (and especially his grief) when he returns to the company, and his brief death scene, his fluctuating feelings come over as clear as a bell, and I'm pretty sure he is all too conscious of them.

  15. #180
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    Originally posted by joxy
    Of course I totally agree about the "blindness".
    I hope you have other examples for that other idea from the film though. I thoroughly dislike the sword practice:
    it carries on the childish character of P&M (so, of course, it's OK for the film!), but now brings Boromir to an equivalent level, like a kindly uncle who is really a big tough guy but who takes a delight (rather questionable these days) in letting his nephews kick and jump on him. It does have a saving grace, in Sam's disdainful look as he observes, and now in Aragorn's reaction. As I gather you like the scene, we disagree for once - a very healthy sign!
    As to the scene above: I mentioned it because it does "humanize" Boromir to the audience obviously. Certainly M&P continue to be rather comic, but it would be a little late to change their characters at that point in the film. I didn't altogether dislike the scene although it would have been better done if it had remained what it started out to be, a training lesson, and not degenerated into the more childish roughousing. But certainly the scene does make Boromir more sympathetic to the audience, it can't help but do so.

    In the book, Tolkien mentions M&P's affection for the man, so we must assume that some more comradely activities were engaged in during the long walk south. There was an affection, I believe, among the three that even Tolkien refers to and goes far in explaining the man's ferocious attempt to rescue the hobbits at Parth Galen. Unfortunately, far too many people believe Tolkien's characters are "wooden" because he leaves a lot of their persona to the imagination of the reader.
    Mrs. M., Queen of Farmer's Wives

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