number of the Ainur

[Nóm]

How many were the Ainur? Is this mentioned in HoME or in any of Tolkien's letters? If not, how many do you Imagine they are when you read Ainulindale?

[Ponte]

I imagine the Ainur as being perhaps three thousands.
By them perhaps 95% being Maiar and 5% being Valar.

[Nóm]

Buu, 300 Valar?
...am I missing something?

Oh i see you have editted your post, it did used to say 10% Valar right?

[Ponte]

Yes it did.

5% = 150 valar. That is a little mutch too.

I change to two thousand ainur and still 95% maiar and 5% valar.

In that case it is 100 valar and about 1900 maiar.
That means that 86 valar must have stayed with Iluvatar and that also is a little to mutch I think.

Lets see...

1500 ainur. 95% Maiar and 5% valar that means that it must have been 75 valar. 61 valar stays with Iluvatar. That looks possibly. Perhaps a little to mutch too but it is at least possibly.

[Nóm]

The thing is Buu, that I get the impression that there were 14 Valar.

[Ponte]

I got the impression that there were some valar more that stayed with Iluvatar. Tulkas coming and saving the world from Melkor for an example made me think that some of the valar stayed with Iluvatar.

[Nóm]

Tulkas did come to Middle-earth later than the other Valar, but he is still counted in the 14 that i speak of.

[Ponte]

I know that but that doesn't have to mean that there weren't more valar that was with Iluvatar.

[pohuist]

There are only 14 Valar according to the Encyclopaedia of Arda. There then must be 266 Maiar, according to Buu's percentage. I, however, think that this is too high. This, of course, is a pure speculation, but when the council was deciding whom to send to ME to combat Sauron, they were comparing and thinking of the specific Maiar, which to me means they should have known them quite well, meaning there are not that many. I'd say there are 5-10 Maiar to each Vala.
But then there are also Balrogs and Eagles who were many. And weren't dragons Maiar as well?

[Nóm]

Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Illuvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and the most fair, took the leave of Iluvatar and desended into it. But this condition Illuvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it forever, until it is complete, so that are it's life and it is theirs. And therefore they are named the Valar, the powers of the world.

This is where i get my information of their numbers. That above, plus in Valaquenta, it is said that there were 7 lords of the Valar and 7 queens or Valier.
I took this to mean that the 7 and 7 are the entire Valar.

[Ponte]

But Tulkas had stayed with Iluvatar in the Timeless halls but came to help the ainur that were in Arda, couldn't some other valar had stayed in the Timeless halls to but that vala forever?

And to pohuist. First it was just a number I write and for the second the valar had many thousand years to learn who they were and for the third I didn't said that al of the maiar went to Arda.

[Nóm]

It is true that Tolkas stayed back awhile, but even so he is one of the 7 Lords who are named in the book.

[Ponte]

But I think he is named as a lord of the valar because he came to Arda.
Another vala who stayed in the Timeless halls wouldn't had been called a lord or queen since he or she wouldn't have anything with the peoples of Arda to do.

Well he or she sang in the Ainulindaele but many maiar did that and thoose wern't either called lords or quenns.

[Nóm]

it is my impression ( derived from that quote I posted above) That only the Ainur who came to Arda are named the Valar.

[Ponte]

But some of the ainur who stayed in the Timeless halls perhaps were like the valar of Arda but didn't had the name vala since they weren't in Arda and therefor wasn't the power of the world.