[DEBATE] Was Goldberry a Maia?

[Beorn]

This debate is between Grond and Ancalagon only. The question being debated is Was Goldberry a Maia?

Grond has opted to let Ancalagon choose his side, and Grond will oppose it (because he claims his debating abilities are better than Anc's...).

On your mark....

Get Set....

GO!

Judges: Tal, Gothmog, Maedhros, myself, and a poll (which I'll add later on)

[Ancalagon]

Firstly, let me thank Beorn for setting the question, a real teaser at that! Secondly, let me thank Grond for hosting this debate within The Guild of Tolkienology.

As I have the option to choose on which side of the debate I will stand; I have opted for the less obvious stance that Goldberry was not Maia in origin.

One fact must always remain at the forefront of this debate, that no matter who has the more convincing arguement, neither of us can be proven right. For Goldberry, as is Tom, are enigmas within Middle-Earth.
I am going to try therefore to impress without huge reams of text and simply try to constuct an opinion based on my own understanding of Goldberry and her relation to Middle-Earth.

Tolkien himself stated in a letter to Forrest J. Ackerman [Not dated; June 1958] 210;

We are not in 'fairy-land', but in real river-lands in autumn. Goldberry represents the actual seasonal changes in such lands.

It is easy to simply categorise any living spirit within Middle-Earth as being either Ainur or of the Children of Iluvatar. Yet, the fact remains that many of those spirits that inhabit Middle-Earth cannot be simply bracketed without questioning their origin. Tolkien himself introduced Tom and Goldberry in The Adventures of Tom Bombadil, where upon they were never classified according to our understanding of Maiar in The Silmarillion. The difficulty for us lies in trying to define an origin for Goldberry. We know she was 'the River-Daugher' of 'The River Woman', herself an unknown spirit of the water that inhabited the Withywindle.

Yet Tolkiens own spoken words of her state that she is actually a product of nature. Like nature itself, she changes with the seasons and ever bound to that from which her life was sprung. Yet, to simplifiy this a label her as Maia is ignoring the intent of the author to portray her as more, as a living, breathing product of the elements, yet not one of the creators in the great song.

One would wonder then that Old Man Willow is a living product of Nature, yet would anyone cast doubts as to his origin? Ents themselves were a gift to Yvanna from Eru. Although they live, walk, talk and breath; they are a product of nature and bound to that part of nature from which they spring. Yet Ents are not Maia, for they have a life gifted them by Eru himself. Goldberry herself is, in my humble opinion, the lving, breathing essence of water and one of natures very own enigmas. She differs to Ulmo or Osse in this respect, for they are creators, weavers of waters in the song of the Ainur. Goldberry it could be said is Eru's own gift to natures life. Is she a servant of the Valar? No, not at all, she is unique, unclassified and unspoilt.

[Grond]

Anc, I can't help but feel you're barking up the wrong tree.

from The Silmarillion, Of the Darkening of Valinor
...and there in Avathar, secret and unknown, Ungoliant had made her abode. The Eldar knew not whence she came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwë, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service...

from Morgoth's Ring, The Annals of Aman, 1500, ~17
...And afar off in the dark places Melkor was filled with hatred, being jealous of the works of his peers, whom he desired to make subject to himself. Therefore he gathered to himself spirits out of the voids of Ea that he had perverted to his service, and he deemed himself strong...

We are beset with quotes that there were beings (other Ainur) in the void who "clothed themselves in Earthly form".

from The Silmarillion, Ainulindale
Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Ilúvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Ilúvatar and descended into it. But this condition Ilúvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs. And therefore they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.

It is apparent from the author's own rules that he set for the worlds of Middle-earth, Valinor and Ea itself that an Ainur could not descend into the confines of the world of the Valar without giving up his rights to the Void. Combine that with the fact that we already have an accounting for who the Valar would be. (nine and nine) What we end up with is the only valid conclusion that any other "heavenly creatures" that entered Ea would be classified as Maia.

Whew!! Now that I have all that established. It is also plain that Tom Bombadil is not an Elf, Man, Hobbit, Ent, Orc, Dwarf, Troll or any other classification of "non-heavenly creature". So there is a direct link to classify Tom as a Maia. The Ring has no effect on him. He is totally in control of his little area of Middle-earth. He is "Master" of his realm. No other forces influence it. I would argue that Tom is a Maia come to Middle-earth in all his glory. Not an Istari housed with the limitations of Man and Elf but a Maia, fearless of evil (though he may be bested by it). Uncorruptible but beatable.

Now... after all that I get to Goldberry. Goldberry is clearly the spouse of Tom. Goldberry is clearly a Maia! I'll use Anc's own quote to illustrate my point.

from Anc's first post
Yet Tolkiens own spoken words of her state that she is actually a product of nature. Like nature itself, she changes with the seasons and ever bound to that from which her life was sprung. Yet, to simplifiy this a label her as Maia is ignoring the intent of the author to portray her as more, as a living, breathing product of the elements, yet not one of the creators in the great song.

Tolkien made no allowance in his world for a "product of Nature." A quote from his Letters can't change what he wrote. He gave us a very structured world where all things fit. Goldberry was one of those that easily fits into one of the categories the author created. She descended from the Void with Tom after the making of the music. She is to Tom as Yavanna is to Aule. She is Maia.

[Ancalagon]

So, now we have Tom classified conveniently as a Maia without any reference to the Authors own words relating to Tom as being enigmatic?

And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally).

Letter 144

Even within Middle-Earth we cannot simplify each aspect of his creations; all things do not fit, especially in a mythology. The very fact that it is mythological distances it from the basics of applying a scientific approach. Not all is explanable, for in reality Dragons, Balrogs and Hobbits are inconcievable, whereas in mythology, they are as plain as day. Yet, as alien as these creatures are to our own reality, so too are Tom and Goldberry to Tolkiens mythology.

Goldberry is enigmatic in her own right because she does not fit into any part, she is a mystery, unexplained by seemingly irrelevant and discordant appearance, yet is as natural to her surroundings as any of Tolkiens characters. More importantly however is her title; 'River-Daughter.' This area I wish to focus upon, for it is her very description that removes her from the confines of Tolkiens Maia. Her character leans towards being a Nymph, a creation attuned to and part of nature. Tolkiens own affinity with Nature and all things 'fairy' in relation to nature, gives Goldberry a unique status within his creation. She is the product of nature, she is a product of the song.

Iluvatar gave life to trees, he even gave life to Dwarves, who in reality were likely construct of carven, living rock! How so? How do these things live and breath and walk, eat, drink and talk if they are not either Maia or the Children of Iluvatar? They do however have a spirit within them that gives them life, as do Men and Elves alike, but they are not Maia spirits, but each life in itself always emanates from Eru.
So too does Goldberry, River-Daughter, for she is life sprung from Eru, but a product of her environment. I do not think she is literally a birth daughter of The River Woman, but of the same life that resides within nature itself. For Nature to Tolkien is a living, breathing entity, a creation of the song, but a life force within Middle-Earth. Yvanna and Aule are certainly relevant to this debate, for they both had a role to play in the creation of life, but not in the ordering of the spirits that mobilise that life. Eru is the sole giver of life. But not all life is Maia, for the Children are not in that category, neither are Dwarves, Hobbits or Ents. Goldberry herself is unique to this ordering.

[Grond]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
So, now we have Tom classified conveniently as a Maia without any reference to the Authors own words relating to Tom as being enigmatic?

The author's own words come a bit late. He is the one that created the ordered world of Middle-earth. He speaks of enigmas yet identifies only one; yet, within the bounds set by the author himself, Tom clearly can fit into the category I have layed out. And J. R. R. T. even has the opportunity when describing Tom to include Goldberry and yet he does not.

originally posted by Ancalagon
Even within Middle-Earth we cannot simplify each aspect of his creations; all things do not fit, especially in a mythology. The very fact that it is mythological distances it from the basics of applying a scientific approach. Not all is explanable, for in reality Dragons, Balrogs and Hobbits are inconcievable, whereas in mythology, they are as plain as day. Yet, as alien as these creatures are to our own reality, so too are Tom and Goldberry to Tolkiens mythology.

Here, I disagree with you. In Tolkien's mythology, the world of Middle-earth is entirely ordered with any mystery being easily explained. That was Tolkien's greatness... not only the richness of his mythology, but the order and consistency contained therein. Again, I retreat to my stance that both Tom and Goldberry easily fit into the category of one of the Ainur who came later to Arda and set up there own home there... just as Ungoliant came (probably independent from Melkor) and set up her own abode in Avathar.

originally posted by Ancalagon
Goldberry is enigmatic in her own right because she does not fit into any part, she is a mystery, unexplained by seemingly irrelevant and discordant appearance, yet is as natural to her surroundings as any of Tolkiens characters. More importantly however is her title; 'River-Daughter.' This area I wish to focus upon, for it is her very description that removes her from the confines of Tolkiens Maia. Her character leans towards being a Nymph, a creation attuned to and part of nature. Tolkiens own affinity with Nature and all things 'fairy' in relation to nature, gives Goldberry a unique status within his creation. She is the product of nature, she is a product of the song.

It is much easier for me to believe that she is a Singer of the Song rather than a product of the Song because she is not explained in the history. Elves are the First-born. Man is the Second-born. Dwarves are the creation of Aule blessed and made alive by Eru. Ents are creatures of Yavanna's thought blessed and brought into existence by Eru. You have order... you have understanding... you have history. The history speaks of the Valar and it speaks of the Maiar. The Valar are all readily identified. The Maiar are not because they were more numerous but no less important.

Goldberry does have a unique status. She is the river-daughter. That, too, is easily explained. Osse and Uinen are the Maia charged with the shallows and inland waters. The rivers and the streams are also their abode. River-daughter sounds like a daughter of Osse and Uinen to me. That would make her a Maia clear and convincing.

Eru did give life to all things in J. R. R. T.'s Middle-earth. He gave it in a clear and concise manner that was ordered and recorded. Even the author can't come back after the story is written and change the natural conclusion one would reach by applying the laws of the world (as defined by the author himself) to create something that is unexplainable. Tom, and Goldberry by default are easily explained as Maiar who descended from the Void after the Songs were Sung and made their home in Middle-earth.

There Anc... an entire post with no quotes from the author. Aren't you proud of me??

[Ancalagon]

Grond, firstly let me congratulate you on coming up with a very credible solution to the mystery surrounding Goldberry.

However, for Osse and Uinen to have created offspring we would surely have known about this through references in the Silmarillion. In addition, where does 'The River Woman' fit into this scenario? She is an entirely separate entity and still responsible for Goldberry to a degree. Also, why the Withywindle? Why would offspring of Osse and Uninen (assuming they had any) exclusively relate to this particular river? Surely then all major rivers within Middle-Earth would have some type of Water-Nymph associated with it! But we know this is not the case, Goldberry is unique!

As great as your theory is, it holds virtually no water (excuse the pun) as realistically Goldberry remains an enigma of Nature and a child of her environment. Really, you will have to produce more evidence to support your theory, rather than assume it is a foregone conclusion.

Eru alone is responsible for her creation, for as the great author stated; she is represents actual seasonal change. This alone removes her from simply being a 'water-baby' and raises her to all-inclusive nature manipulating status. She could just as easily be Daughter of Mother-Nature, and that does not make her Maia.

[Grond]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
...However, for Osse and Uinen to have created offspring we would surely have known about this through references in the Silmarillion. In addition, where does 'The River Woman' fit into this scenario? She is an entirely separate entity and still responsible for Goldberry to a degree. Also, why the Withywindle? Why would offspring of Osse and Uninen (assuming they had any) exclusively relate to this particular river? Surely then all major rivers within Middle-Earth would have some type of Water-Nymph associated with it! But we know this is not the case, Goldberry is unique!

I fail to see her uniqueness. Osse and Uinen (like Ulmo) are able to control the seas and inland waters. They are able to calm the waters or call up squalls and storms. Another Maia would have similar powers. Whether you view Goldberry as a daugther of the river (Uinen) or you view her as simply another Maia on Middle-earth with her Maia-mate Tom... she is still endowed with many powers. Interestingly, she appears to exert her powers only within the confines of the land she and Tom have "staked out" as their own.

from The Fellowship of the Ring, In the House of Tom Bombadil
O slender as a willow-wand! O clearer than clear water!
O reed by the living pool! Fair River-daughter!
O spring-time and summer-time, and spring again after!
O wind on the waterfall, and the leaves' laughter!'

and

As they looked out of the window there came falling gently as if it was
flowing down the rain out of the sky, the clear voice of Goldberry singing up above them. They could hear few words, but it seemed plain to them that the song was a rain-song, as sweet as showers on dry hills, that told the tale of a river from the spring in the highlands to the Sea far below. The hobbits listened with delight; and Frodo was glad in his heart, and blessed the kindly weather, because it delayed them from departing. The thought of going had been heavy upon him from the moment he awoke; but he guessed now that they would not go further that day.

It goes on to explain that it is clearly Goldberry bringing about the rain. She, like Tom, has power within the confines of her Realm. I fail to see how she can be an enigma of Nature. Were she so, why would she restrict herself to the Old Forest and the River Withywindle? Were she, in fact, nature incarnate, her power should effect all Middle-earth. Your own theory cuts both ways. I ask you the same question you ask me concerning your own theory... Why the Withwindle? Why would your explanation of Goldberry as an enigma of nature be any more believeable than the theory that she is the Maia-child of Osse and Uinen? There is a simple answer... your theory is no more believeable.

originally posted by Ancalagon
As great as your theory is, it holds virtually no water (excuse the pun) as realistically Goldberry remains an enigma of Nature and a child of her environment. Really, you will have to produce more evidence to support your theory, rather than assume it is a foregone conclusion.

I have not assumed anything. I am simply laying a foundation based on the text and reasonable conclusions that Goldberry (and Tom) very easily fit into the category of a Maia. And she does. And I have another question for you..... where in any of the texts (other than the after the fact Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien) are there any enigmas? Tolkien states in the Letters that every world must have them... yet he doesn't identify any of them in his works as such. Only after the fact does he mention that Tom is an enigma. Well, you can't have your cake and eat it too. Tolkien can't claim that Tom is an enigma, yet create a world that has no place for one. The world of Middle-earth has no place for enigmas. The only logical conclusion that can be reached is that they are both Ainu.

originally posted by Ancalagon
Eru alone is responsible for her creation, for as the great author stated; she is represents actual seasonal change. This alone removes her from simply being a 'water-baby' and raises her to all-inclusive nature manipulating status. She could just as easily be Daughter of Mother-Nature, and that does not make her Maia.

Mother Nature is defined within the works of Tolkien. It is abundantly clear in the texts that the Valar control nature. Manwe, the sky and clouds, Varda the heavens, Ulmo the Seas, Aule the Earth, Yavanna, growing things and if there is a Mother Nature... Yavanna would be Her.

I also agree with you that Eru alone is responsible for her creation.
quote:

from the Silmarillion, The Ainulindale
There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Ilúvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made. And he spoke to them, propound to them themes of music; and they sang before him, and he was glad. But for a long while they sang only each alone, or but few together, while the rest hearkened; for each comprehended only that part of the mind of Ilúvatar from which he came, and in the understanding of their brethren they grew but slowly. Yet ever as they listened they came to deeper understanding, and increased in unison and harmony.

Didn't Goldberry and Tom both love to sing? Didn't both Tom and Goldberry exert their powers through song? Tom rescued Merry and Pippin from Old Man Willow with a song. Goldberry brought the washday rain with a song. Sounds to me like we have two Ainur singing their little hearts out.

[Ancalagon]

Osse and Uinen are the Maia charged with the shallows and inland waters. The rivers and the streams are also their abode. River-daughter sounds like a daughter of Osse and Uinen to me. That would make her a Maia clear and convincing.

The only Maia to have ever had any offspring was Melian, who with King Thingol had Luthien Tinuviel. This in itself is significant, because for Melian to have any offspring at all, she had to consort with an Elf.

For Melian was of the divine race of the Valar, and she was a Maia of great power and wisdom; but for love of Elwë Singollo she took upon herself the form of the Elder Children of Ilúvatar, and in that union she became bound by the chain and trammels of the flesh of Arda. In that form she bore to him Lúthien Tinúviel; and in that form she gained a power over the substance of Arda,

Now, we know that becuase of this union Melian was able to conceive a child. No other Maia is ever recorded as having children, particularly as a result of a union of Maia. So much is made of Luthien, that surely any other child borne by a Maia would be just as readily acknowledged for their importance within Arda. However, Goldberry herself is certainly not a result of Osse and Uinen, for Maia do not have birth children in the same fashion as the children of Iluvatar. Look again at the quote of Melian, she had to assume the form and bonds of becoming as the Eldar in order to concieve. Goldberry however is not the product of a union either between Maia or Elf.

There is no doubt that Golberry has power within her song and within her realm. However, this very fact is in essence the subject of this conundrum. Goldberry was confined within Toms world, belonging to that from which she came. The significance of the Withywindle makes her all the more an enigma, that she alone was the only known daughter of The River, any river. No other record or reference relates any Maia as being subject to a single entity. They are free to move within Arda, free to explore and travel the land; yet with Goldberry(and Tom) they are bound within a bordered land. This is extremely unusual and does not keep in similarity with any other of the Ainur. Goldberry did not choose this raiment for herself, she was made thus. Again, this is far-removed from the definition within The Ainulindale that signifies the Maiar;

Then those of the Ainur who desired it arose and entered into the World at the beginning of Time; and it was their task to achieve it, and by their labours to fulfil the vision which they had seen. Long they laboured in the regions of Eä, which are vast beyond the thought of Elves and Men, until in the time appointed was made Arda, the Kingdom of Earth. Then they put on the raiment of Earth and descended into it, and dwelt therein.

Yet Toms description of when he found her suggests she was child-like, new to this world, almost forlorn; not like a Maia who is older than Arda itself.

By that pool long ago I found the River-daughter,fair young Goldberry sitting in the rushes.Sweet was her singing then, and her heart was beating!

This is not the discovery of a Maia, worldly wise and one of the many in the great song. However, you relate to the singing of both Tom and Goldberry, which in itself is rather unusual, for after the song, there is little reference of The Ainur actually using song in the way Tom and Goldberry do. Their use of song is more magical, potent and inherent to their nature that it truly seems out of place especially to the Ainur. Their whole language is musical, rhythmical and poetic, yet the Ainur are not at all like this after they descend into Arda. Neither Melian, Sauron, Gandalf, Saruman or any other who located to Middle-Earth spoke in song. Why?

You also make reference to the Authors apparent lack of enigmas within his writing. Yet this itself is one, because neither of us have a suitable answer to the question. However, one reason I do not beleive either are Maia is because any Maia who came to Middle-Earth was identified as such by the author. Actually, he was ordinarilly at pains to present a short biography of any individual who was Maia and located to Middle-Earth.

Their number is not known to the Elves, and few have names in any of the tongues of the Children of Ilúvatar; for though it is otherwise in Aman, in Middle-earth the Maiar have seldom appeared in form visible to Elves and Men.

Yet, we can clearly identify with each individual who Tolkien mentions; Sauron, Melian, The Istari are all specifically given much time and effort explaining history. Yet with Tom and Goldberry, there is a very distinct lack of history, where they are not attributed to being Maia by the author. This in itself is very much against the grain of the author, espcially when you consider the amount of space they have in the book. We would simply know if they were Maia because Tolkien would have let us know.

[Grond]

Originally posted by Ancalagon
The only Maia to have ever had any offspring was Melian, who with King Thingol had Luthien Tinuviel. This in itself is significant, because for Melian to have any offspring at all, she had to consort with an Elf.

In the Book of Lost Tales Parts 1 and 2, Fionwe (later to become the herald of Manwe) is portrayed as the son of Manwe and Varda. Gothmog is described as the son of Melkor. The idea that Ainur could procreate is one of the oldest in Tolkien's writings. Ungoliant is accepted by many people to have been an Ainur who came later to Middle-earth (as I theorize in one of my scenarios) and it is documented that she procreated. (Shelob the Great, last child of Ungoliant to trouble the unhappy world.) He later went in a different direction but there is enough contradictory evidence to cast doubt on your position here.

originally posted by Ancalagon
Now, we know that becuase of this union Melian was able to conceive a child. No other Maia is ever recorded as having children, particularly as a result of a union of Maia. So much is made of Luthien, that surely any other child borne by a Maia would be just as readily acknowledged for their importance within Arda. However, Goldberry herself is certainly not a result of Osse and Uinen, for Maia do not have birth children in the same fashion as the children of Iluvatar. Look again at the quote of Melian, she had to assume the form and bonds of becoming as the Eldar in order to concieve. Goldberry however is not the product of a union either between Maia or Elf.

Ungoliant and Tolkein's own thoughts in The Book of Lost Tales shed doubt on this entire quote. Your statement is unreliable and contradicted by the facts themselves.

originally osted by Ancalagon
There is no doubt that Golberry has power within her song and within her realm. However, this very fact is in essence the subject of this conundrum. Goldberry was confined within Toms world, belonging to that from which she came. The significance of the Withywindle makes her all the more an enigma, that she alone was the only known daughter of The River, any river. No other record or reference relates any Maia as being subject to a single entity. They are free to move within Arda, free to explore and travel the land; yet with Goldberry(and Tom) they are bound within a bordered land. This is extremely unusual and does not keep in similarity with any other of the Ainur. Goldberry did not choose this raiment for herself, she was made thus. Again, this is far-removed from the definition within The Ainulindale that signifies the Maiar;

Wrong again. Maiar are bound servants to their Vala. Eonwe to Manwe, Melian to Lorien... Osse and Uinen to Ulmo. Goldberry as an independent Maia would undoubtedly be a Maia of Ulmo... as a daughter of Osse and Uinen she would also be a vassal of Ulmo but possibly also be subservient to her Mother and Father. If she was simply another Maiar who was coequal to Osse and Uinen then her realm would have been the River Withywindle.

Also, I contend that Tom is a late-comer who chose to serve no Valar. Goldberry could also be a late-comer who chose to serve Ulmo and was assigned the River Withywindle as her domain. Both Tom and Goldberry are are categorized as Maiar because they are not Valar and the Ainulindale tells us that those that come to Middle-earth become bound to Middle-earth and are therefore, Maiar... but there are the Maiar that are bound to the Valar and those that are free agents. Ungoliant is a free agent. Tom is a free agent. Goldberry, due to her description as being bound to the River Withywindle was definately not a free-agent... she was bound in some way to the Realm of Ulmo and Osse and Uinen... but she lives with Tom. It is possible that, over time, both her and Tom are Maiar that have "gone native" (borrowed from another source) so to speak.

You also speak of no other such enigmas. I contend that there are many Maia of the rivers. If the Rivers of Middle-earth had such guardians/overseers, it would explain many things. Take Boromir, for example. His boat is borne over the Falls of Cair Andros and yet the boat survives and he remains intact in the boat with all his regalia... exactly as placed there by Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli. I would contend that another Maia of Ulmo protected Boromir's boat from harm in passing the falls. His name was Blueberry, Goldberry's brother. (humourous interlude).

originally posted by Ancalagon
Yet Toms description of when he found her suggests she was child-like, new to this world, almost forlorn; not like a Maia who is older than Arda itself. This is not the discovery of a Maia, worldly wise and one of the many in the great song. However, you relate to the singing of both Tom and Goldberry, which in itself is rather unusual, for after the song, there is little reference of The Ainur actually using song in the way Tom and Goldberry do. Their use of song is more magical, potent and inherent to their nature that it truly seems out of place especially to the Ainur. Their whole language is musical, rhythmical and poetic, yet the Ainur are not at all like this after they descend into Arda. Neither Melian, Sauron, Gandalf, Saruman or any other who located to Middle-Earth spoke in song. Why?

You do nothing with this quote but help my case. Were she a daughter of Osse and Uinen she would have been new to the world. And you forget my previous quotes concerning others who came after the Valar were ruling Middle-earth. Many came and joined Manwe and crew.... some came and joined Melkor... others came by themselves to behold the wonder and beauty that they helped create in the Music and yet had no desire to "Rule." This description clearly fits Tom Bombadill and very concisely explains his uniqueness on Middle-earth.

You and I must have a different take on what we read. I imagine that in Valinor most conversations are sung.

originally posted by Ancalagon
You also make reference to the Authors apparent lack of enigmas within his writing. Yet this itself is one, because neither of us have a suitable answer to the question. However, one reason I do not beleive either are Maia is because any Maia who came to Middle-Earth was identified as such by the author. Actually, he was ordinarilly at pains to present a short biography of any individual who was Maia and located to Middle-Earth.

Yet, we can clearly identify with each individual who Tolkien mentions; Sauron, Melian, The Istari are all specifically given much time and effort explaining history. Yet with Tom and Goldberry, there is a very distinct lack of history, where they are not attributed to being Maia by the author. This in itself is very much against the grain of the author, espcially when you consider the amount of space they have in the book. We would simply know if they were Maia because Tolkien would have let us know.

And yet we know that Maia were numerous and we know that each Valar had numerous servants. The fact that some weren't mentioned is of no significance. Surely Ulmo had more Maiar subservient to him than Osse and Uinen, yet they are the only two of Ulmo's servants mentioned in the works. The mere fact that other Maia are not mentioned is meaningless and doesn't prove anything. There are many such things left to our imagination. What about the Watcher in the Water, the Watchers at the gates of Cirith Ungol, the things Gandalf saw that "delve in the depths of the Earth that Sauron's knows not because they were there before him"? There are many things unexplained. Each and everyone of the things I've described easily fall into the category that I place Tom and Goldberry. They are displaced Ainur, lesser spirits, who came down to Middle-earth later in it's history to see the fruits of their Music.

[Ancalagon]

Well Grond, it is good to see my entire post quoted in your last response; obviously some of it must have been worthwhile since you have posted a more defensive position rather than venturing new ideas.

Whatever ideas Tolkien played around with and were the subject of a combination of notes, does not detract from the fact that Fionwe, in The Sil, was simply another offshoot of the mind of Eru. They all were, which means Tolkien made the choice between having the Ainur as active sexual participants or as asexual bystanders. The latter was his final decision. Yet, in order for the Ainur to actually procreate, they needed to dramatically change from their bodily 'outer garment', to a complete bodily form, euipped with the required organs for producing offspring. One would think they would all be at it as Ainur if they didn't need to make this choice. Melians choice was made though her love for a Child of Eru, her decision was not a simple 'quick change' either, it was a life-changing decision that bound her to that form and flesh.

For other foul creatures of spider form had dwelt there since the days of the delving of Angband, and she mated with them, and devoured them; and even after Ungoliant herself departed, and went whither she would into the forgotten south of the world, her offspring abode there and wove their hideous webs.

I am sure the same can be said of Ungoliant, certainly she did produce offspring, one wonders how this ugliness would happen, but no doubt in the pattern of producing many eggs, cocooned until they hatch and spawn. Either way, she needed to assume a Middle-Earthly bound, bodily form capable of creating such offspring, in the same way Melian did; both were bound to that form. Are you telling me that Osse and Uinen made the same sacrifice?

Wrong again. Maiar are bound servants to their Vala. Eonwe to Manwe, Melian to Lorien... Osse and Uinen to Ulmo. Goldberry as an independent Maia would undoubtedly be a Maia of Ulmo... as a daughter of Osse and Uinen she would also be a vassal of Ulmo but possibly also be subservient to her Mother and Father. If she was simply another Maiar who was coequal to Osse and Uinen then her realm would have been the River Withywindle.

Even you don't sound convinced by your own words!

However, since this debate is wide-open to speculation about not only Goldberry, but Tom also, I will give you a different version. Tom represents something more to me than meets the eye; I have always held a distinct feeling that Tom represents 'Time' in Middle-Earth, since the creation of Arda. How else could he be referred to as Master? He is in the shape of man, neither does he or Goldberry have the light of Aman in their faces that Melian had when she came to Middle-Earth. Even Sauron was majestic to look upon when he was able to assume a fair hue up until the destruction of Numenor. Goldberry is a water-nymph, such as Tolkien was conscious of the relevance of Faerie. She is certainly not Mother Nature, but she is most definite a product of nature. She is a creation of nature who lives in tandem with time, both move within their realm together. One wonders if Tom and Goldberry are representative of the the life-essence of Middle-Earth as a living organ.

Tom is referred to as Master! Yet he does not lay claim to Middle-Earth as its lord and King. Why not? Is it becuase he is bound to Middle-Earth and not to Arda? Unlike the Ainur that descend into Arda who are bound by it, he is an enigma, created within Middle-Earth and Goldberry is an fitting enigma who represents the changing seasons, set to be his wife. Remember, this is mythology, and in mythology we are not bound by laws, irrespective of Tolkiens attempted structure. He himself has left both Tom and Goldberry open to interpretation; never referring to them as Maia, even though they have huge column inches and their own book.

When defining Maia within Middle-Earth, many of those who are rarely mentioned can be easily defined as those who came to heed the call of Melkor. The Watcher in the Water and the other dark creatures that delve into the Earth, especially after the War of Wrath. However, when it comes to Tom and Goldberry, they fit no category at all. Yet, for having so much information about them, spending nearly two chapters with them, reading their 'Adventures', we are left with the distinct feeling that Tolkien is blatantly avoiding referring to them as Maia. I mean, does that not strike you as a little odd? Especially when you think of the huge access to history that we have regarding the Ainur. We have no reference either to Aman, no relation with the Valar at all, actually everything suggests they are far from Maia in origin and more a product of Middle-Earth, not the void surrounding it.

Eldest, that's what I am. Mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.'

Before the dark lord came from outside? Surely he and Goldberry as Maia would not refer to it as 'outside', if they both originated from the mind of Eru? That would mean they both come from inside! Both products of Middle-Earth, belonging to the land, representations of both Time and Nature, signifying the advancement of time through the change in seasons. They compliment each other unlike any other entity within Arda. Every word that comes from Tom and Goldberry, every description of them relates exclusively to Middle-Earth. Every memory Tom has is related to Middle-Earth alone. He does not ever make reference to Aman. Goldberry and all reference to her is is related to water, her clothes, her hair, her song, her voice everything; yet no mention of service to Ulmo or any other. She is unique within Middle-Earth, Daughter of the River, and bound with Tom in a harmonious, complimentary existence.
Remember, the question still remains; Was Goldberry Maia? All evidence supports a no verdict.

[Grond]

Whatever ideas Tolkien played around with and were the subject of a combination of notes, does not detract from the fact that Fionwe, in The Sil, was simply another offshoot of the mind of Eru. They all were, which means Tolkien made the choice between having the Ainur as active sexual participants or as asexual bystanders. The latter was his final decision. Yet, in order for the Ainur to actually procreate, they needed to dramatically change from their bodily 'outer garment', to a complete bodily form, euipped with the required organs for producing offspring. One would think they would all be at it as Ainur if they didn't need to make this choice. Melians choice was made though her love for a Child of Eru, her decision was not a simple 'quick change' either, it was a life-changing decision that bound her to that form and flesh.

I only have the following to add. It is not from Lost Tales but from Morgoth's Ring and represents things actually said in the Silmarillion Proper. CT chose not to include it because it conflicts with the very arguments you make and CT tried to maintain consistency within the Silmarillion. Having said that, this was written by J. R. R. T. and was not necessarily abandoned.

from HoMe X, Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed
...In any case is it likely or possible that even the least of the Maiar would become Orcs? Yes: both outside Arda and in it, before the fall of Utumno. Melkor had corrupted many spirits -- some great, as Sauron, or less so, as Balrogs. The least could have been primitive (and much more powerful and perilous) Orcs; but by practising when embodied procreation they would (cf. Melian)[become] more and more earthbound, unable to return to the spirit-state (even demon-form), until released by death (killing), and they would dwindle in force. When released they would, of course, like Sauron, be 'damned': i.e. reduced to impotence, infinitely recessive: still hating but unable more and more to make it effective physically (or wound not a very dwindled dead Orc-state be a poltergeist?)

If this quote were deemed definitive (and we can argue about that all day) then your viewpoint that Melian is the only one who became bound to her form is void. You also ask if Osse and Uinen became bound to their form... I can't answer that... I haven't seen them lately.

I am sure the same can be said of Ungoliant, certainly she did produce offspring, one wonders how this ugliness would happen, but no doubt in the pattern of producing many eggs, cocooned until they hatch and spawn. Either way, she needed to assume a Middle-Earthly bound, bodily form capable of creating such offspring, in the same way Melian did; both were bound to that form. Are you telling me that Osse and Uinen made the same sacrifice?

I am theorizing that one sentence in Tolkien's works doesn't preclude that sentence being wrong. It is clear from his writings that even J. R. R. T. wasn't completely "set" on the idea of "heavenly procreation" and that Goldberry as a child of Maia isn't an idea that has no merit. You can argue your point all day but that doesn't make it the fact you want it to be.

Even you don't sound convinced by your own words!

I'm most certainly not convinced by any of my own words. My task is the hard one here. I must, unequivocally, prove that Goldberry is a Maia. You must simply prove she is not. Your task is easier. I am throwing out multiple ways to prove she is a Maia... certainly they all can't be right... but if any one of them is... then she is a Maia.

However, since this debate is wide-open to speculation about not only Goldberry, but Tom also, I will give you a different version. Tom represents something more to me than meets the eye; I have always held a distinct feeling that Tom represents 'Time' in Middle-Earth, since the creation of Arda. How else could he be referred to as Master? He is in the shape of man, neither does he or Goldberry have the light of Aman in their faces that Melian had when she came to Middle-Earth. Even Sauron was majestic to look upon when he was able to assume a fair hue up until the destruction of Numenor. Goldberry is a water-nymph, such as Tolkien was conscious of the relevance of Faerie. She is certainly not Mother Nature, but she is most definite a product of nature. She is a creation of nature who lives in tandem with time, both move within their realm together. One wonders if Tom and Goldberry are representative of the the life-essence of Middle-Earth as a living organ.

Now you're taking a step backward. You can't believe what you just posted. If Tom represented Time and Goldberry the Changing Seasons of Nature as you suggest I have a question for you. "Did Time and the Seasons of Nature only exist in the Old Forest?" You have pointed out time and again the "restrictive" bounds that Tom imposed on himself and Goldberry. Now you would have us believe that he is Time Incarnate!! That is not an idea ever forwarded by the author and one that is like the proverbial dog barking up the wrong tree. A little quote to put out the fire you're trying to light.

[/i]from The Fellowship of the Ring, The Council of Elrond[/i]
'But in any case,' said Glorfindel, `to send the Ring to him would only
postpone the day of evil. He is far away. We could not now take it back to him, unguessed, unmarked by any spy. And even if we could, soon or late the Lord of the Rings would learn of its hiding place and would bend all his power towards it. Could that power be defied by Bombadil alone? I think not. I think that in the end, if all else is conquered, Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First; and then Night will come.'

If Glorfindel knows anything of which he speaks, then your assertion of Tom = Time means that if Sauron would have prevailed in the War of the Ring, Time itself would have been destroyed. I ain't buyin it.

continued next post

[Grond]

Tom is referred to as Master! Yet he does not lay claim to Middle-Earth as its lord and King. Why not? Is it because he is bound to Middle-Earth and not to Arda? Unlike the Ainur that descend into Arda who are bound by it, he is an enigma, created within Middle-Earth and Goldberry is an fitting enigma who represents the changing seasons, set to be his wife. Remember, this is mythology, and in mythology we are not bound by laws, irrespective of Tolkiens attempted structure. He himself has left both Tom and Goldberry open to interpretation; never referring to them as Maia, even though they have huge column inches and their own book.

He appears to have ultimate power in his domain yet the Elves think he will ultimately be defeated by Sauron if the Darkness prevails. Sounds much more plausible to me that he is simply a weaker Maia and Goldberry, as his spouse and younger, would be weaker yet.

When defining Maia within Middle-Earth, many of those who are rarely mentioned can be easily defined as those who came to heed the call of Melkor. The Watcher in the Water and the other dark creatures that delve into the Earth, especially after the War of Wrath. However, when it comes to Tom and Goldberry, they fit no category at all. Yet, for having so much information about them, spending nearly two chapters with them, reading their 'Adventures', we are left with the distinct feeling that Tolkien is blatantly avoiding referring to them as Maia. I mean, does that not strike you as a little odd? Especially when you think of the huge access to history that we have regarding the Ainur. We have no reference either to Aman, no relation with the Valar at all, actually everything suggests they are far from Maia in origin and more a product of Middle-Earth, not the void surrounding it.

Again, more idle speculation on your part. They are not "far from Maia". Regardless of what they are, they appear to be "heavenly in origin" and would be made by Eru. On a worse case scenario (for my side) they would be "kin" to the Maia and Vala.

Also, one of my better theories has been that Goldberry is simply a river Maia of Ulmo, one of many who are responsible for the rivers of Middle-earth. That would explain Boromir and the Falls of Rauros and make the greatest sense. Did you forget to address it or were you scared by it?

Before the dark lord came from outside? Surely he and Goldberry as Maia would not refer to it as 'outside', if they both originated from the mind of Eru? That would mean they both come from inside! Both products of Middle-Earth, belonging to the land, representations of both Time and Nature, signifying the advancement of time through the change in seasons. They compliment each other unlike any other entity within Arda. Every word that comes from Tom and Goldberry, every description of them relates exclusively to Middle-Earth. Every memory Tom has is related to Middle-Earth alone. He does not ever make reference to Aman. Goldberry and all reference to her is is related to water, her clothes, her hair, her song, her voice everything; yet no mention of service to Ulmo or any other. She is unique within Middle-Earth, Daughter of the River, and bound with Tom in a harmonious, complimentary existence.

Tom would never make reference to Aman if he had never been by for a visit. Tolkien makes it clear that Ainur, not bound to the Valar, come to Middle-earth... aka Ungoliant and the fact that the one's more readily identified took up with Melkor in no way hinders my argument that a few didn't. I fail to see how you commenting that Goldberry and Tom are so unique to Middle-earth. They are only unique to Middle-earth because Tolkien speaks of no more. He didn't speak of the journeys of the Blue Wizards either, but we know they occurred. He didn't speak of all the journeys that Aragorn made on his errantry, but they occurred. You can't profess to know with any certainty the Tom and Goldberry were unique... only that they were the only one's written about.

Remember, the question still remains; Was Goldberry Maia? All evidence supports a no verdict.

This final statement on your part is so arrogant that it is laughable. All evidence is, at best, inconclusive.

[Ancalagon]

I find it rather amusing that you have decided that your task is more difficult than mine, when in reality, probably neither of us will be any closer to the truth in the Authors mind.

You posted a quote by Glorfindel regarding Tom;

I think that in the end, if all else is conquered, Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First; and then Night will come.'

Think about those words for a moment; Tom and Goldberry are representative of Time and Nature. Within their realm they manage what could easily be termed Middle-Earths heart, her eco-system. Goldberry, as suggested by Tolkien;

represents the actual seasonal changes in such lands.

Whereas Tom, he is Master;

Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First; and then Night will come.

He may not be 'Time Incarnate', but he represents the beginning and the end. Coupled with Golberry, who is the very essence of seasonal change within Middle-Earths delicate structure, then Time, as understood by any living creature in this balance, will cease to exist. He and Goldberry represent the natural biological clock allocated to Middle-Earth.

Why does it strike you strange referring to Tom as a representation of Time? Time and balance has been integral to Tolkiens work throughout. The destruction of the ecology around him was ever-present. In a letter to Stanley Unwin he once wrote;

Do you think Tom Bombadil, the spirit of the (vanishing) Oxford and Berkshire countryside, could be made into the hero of a story?

This to me strikes a chord with Glorfindels words at the Council; 'Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First; and then Night will come.'
Consider the impact of the Rings of Power; to slow down time and its decaying effects. Whereas Tom and Goldberry do not effect time, they are representative of it. I wonder why we don't read about 'The Girdle of Bombadil' either? Why his realms are not woven in magic and sorcery, protected like Saurons battlements and lands, riddled with mazes such as Melian wove around Doriath? Tom was around before Melkor decended into Arda, yet he has never needed to protect himself or his realm from either Melkor or Sauron?

'No indeed!' she answered, and her smile faded. 'That would indeed be a burden,' she added in a low voice, as if to herself. 'The trees and the grasses and all things growing or living in the land belong each to themselves. Tom Bombadil is the Master. No one has ever caught old Tom walking in the forest, wading in the water, leaping on the hill-tops under light and shadow. He has no fear. Tom Bombadil is master.'

Yet, for Tom and Goldberry to fall foul of Sauron, this would signify the end. The final nail in the coffin of Middle-Earth is the destruction of these two; the destruction of this living, breathing, life-giving organic eco-structure in which we live, finished! To describe them as weaker Maia is rather derisory in my opinion, for beside all the lords of Elves and Men of Middle-Earth, the Armies and might of the allies, for Tom to fall at the last signified the expiration of Middle-Earth as it should have been.

He appears to have ultimate power in his domain yet the Elves think he will ultimately be defeated by Sauron if the Darkness prevails. Sounds much more plausible to me that he is simply a weaker Maia and Goldberry, as his spouse and younger, would be weaker yet.

Posted by Grond I think you miss the point of Goldberry and Tom entirely; if they were Maia, then they should be right up there with Manwe, Aule, Ulmo, Yvanna et al. That is why they are something entirely different in the whole concept of Middle-Earth, they are its life and it is theirs. Should they fall, Middle-Earth is fallen, but the Undying Lands will continue, the other Maia will continue.

Also, one of my better theories has been that Goldberry is simply a river Maia of Ulmo, one of many who are responsible for the rivers of Middle-earth. That would explain Boromir and the Falls of Rauros and make the greatest sense. Did you forget to address it or were you scared by it?

What then is Uinens role if she has hundreds of River-Daughters spread throughout the land? Wouldnt that make her redundant or is she too busy pouring oil on Osses troubled waters? No, I am not scared by it; I simply find no evidence to support it. It does fit within her role which is 'seasonal change,' in a dwindling eco-structure, representative of the whole of Middle-Earth. I think I have gone a long way to explaining her role, and why I do not think she is Maia. Then again, apparently I have the easier task of the the two?

You refer to the unique status of Tom and Goldberry as being inconsistent because Tolkien did not elaborate upon it. Yet, I refer you back to my point that he wrote a great deal about them, much more than was written about the Blue Istari who for all we know about them, one thing is certain; they are Maia. Tolkien leaves very few deliberate loose ends in dealing with the origin of his maiar species. Most are readily explainable as you have pointed out before in debates about Ungoliant, Draugluin and Thuringwethil. They hardly get a mention in comparison, yet we can positively identify them as Maia, heeding the call of Melkor. Tom and Goldberry, as I have said many times before, are well known, allocated much space within Tolkiens realm and yet still elude the Maia link.

It was your 'arrogance' that brought us to this debate O' Great One

[Grond]

Anc said
Think about those words for a moment; Tom and Goldberry are representative of Time and Nature. Within their realm they manage what could easily be termed Middle-Earths heart, her eco-system. Goldberry, as suggested by Tolkien; Whereas Tom, he is Master; He may not be 'Time Incarnate', but he represents the beginning and the end. Coupled with Golberry, who is the very essence of seasonal change within Middle-Earths delicate structure, then Time, as understood by any living creature in this balance, will cease to exist. He and Goldberry represent the natural biological clock allocated to Middle-Earth.

You can't believe that Anc. If he is an enigma, he is not a representative of Time... he appears all-powerful within his realm but his realm is limited to the bounds and confines of the Old Forest... just as Goldberry is limited to the bounds and confines surrounding the River Withywindle. Those very restrictions would lend credence to Tom being a Maia of Aule or Yavanna and Goldberry being a Maia of Ulmo. Tom is unique. Maybe he was "the First of the Maia to come down to Middle-earth. He was there before the "Dark Lord"... so if he stayed in Aman, it was short. I just can't buy in to the time analogy because of the limitations Tom has placed on himself or had placed upon him by a higher Power.

Anc said
This to me strikes a chord with Glorfindels words at the Council; 'Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First; and then Night will come.'

No reference to Time is necessary if you look at Tom simply as a wayward Maia wandering the Realm of Arda in its earliest creation. As the Realms of others expanded... his shrunk. He found another wayward Maia of the River and settled down. A powerful force within the confines of the Lands in which HE decided to settle.

Anc said
Consider the impact of the Rings of Power; to slow down time and its decaying effects. Whereas Tom and Goldberry do not effect time, they are representative of it. I wonder why we don't read about 'The Girdle of Bombadil' either? Why his realms are not woven in magic and sorcery, protected like Saurons battlements and lands, riddled with mazes such as Melian wove around Doriath? Tom was around before Melkor decended into Arda, yet he has never needed to protect himself or his realm from either Melkor or Sauron?

Please provide me with a quote where you got this crock from. Tom may well have settled in the Old Forest because of all the ruckus that occurred in the first War with Sauron. We don't know.

Anc said
Yet, for Tom and Goldberry to fall foul of Sauron, this would signify the end. The final nail in the coffin of Middle-Earth is the destruction of these two; the destruction of this living, breathing, life-giving organic eco-structure in which we live, finished! To describe them as weaker Maia is rather derisory in my opinion, for beside all the lords of Elves and Men of Middle-Earth, the Armies and might of the allies, for Tom to fall at the last signified the expiration of Middle-Earth as it should have been.

I don't quite buy into this either. Tom would be Last as he was First because he was a powerful Maia. More powerful than Men... more powerful than Elves... and more powerful than the Istari in their raimant of Man. He would be last because he would be the last Power that Sauron would have to overcome. And let us not forget that Sauron had armies to do his dirty work. We wouldn't see Sauron versus Tom... we would instead see the Armies of Sauron overrunning Tom and Goldberry's realm and eventually overcoming even a Maia.

Anc said
I think you miss the point of Goldberry and Tom entirely; if they were Maia, then they should be right up there with Manwe, Aule, Ulmo, Yvanna et al. That is why they are something entirely different in the whole concept of Middle-Earth, they are its life and it is theirs. Should they fall, Middle-Earth is fallen, but the Undying Lands will continue, the other Maia will continue.

Why need they even be mentioned if they were "bound" spirits of Middle-earth? What if they chose not to live in Aman? What if their part of the Music so overwhelmed them that they couldn't bear to live anywhere except Arda? The Eldar in Aman would have no record of them if the never came to Aman. Only the Elves of Middle-earth would know of them and their lives. And the Elves of Middle-earth did know of them. (see Council of Elrond).

Anc said
What then is Uinens role if she has hundreds of River-Daughters spread throughout the land? Wouldnt that make her redundant or is she too busy pouring oil on Osses troubled waters? No, I am not scared by it; I simply find no evidence to support it. It does fit within her role which is 'seasonal change,' in a dwindling eco-structure, representative of the whole of Middle-Earth. I think I have gone a long way to explaining her role, and why I do not think she is Maia. Then again, apparently I have the easier task of the the two?

To answer your question on River-Daughters... see my Silmarillion quote below.

You speak of Goldberry's role as representative of seasonal change which is cited from the Author's thoughts on the matter. Interestingly, she isn't portrayed that way in the works themselves. She is the River-daughter... more closely bound to the Withywindle than to the Earth. Again, I just don't buy into that line. As to her being a servant or child of Uinen, here's a quote for you!

from The Silmarillion, Of the Beginning of Days
Uinen also, to whom he gave the government of the waves and the movements of the Inner Seas, and many other spirits beside. And thus it was by the power of Ulmo that even under the darkness of Melkor life coursed still through many secret lodes, and the Earth did not die; and to all who were lost in that darkness or wandered far from the light of the Valar the ear of Ulmo was ever open; nor has he ever forsaken Middle-earth, and whatsoever may since have befallen of ruin or of change he has not ceased to take thought for it, and will not until the end of days.

I think I see a quote that might be referring directly to Goldberry there.

Anc said
You refer to the unique status of Tom and Goldberry as being inconsistent because Tolkien did not elaborate upon it. Yet, I refer you back to my point that he wrote a great deal about them, much more than was written about the Blue Istari who for all we know about them, one thing is certain; they are Maia. Tolkien leaves very few deliberate loose ends in dealing with the origin of his maiar species. Most are readily explainable as you have pointed out before in debates about Ungoliant, Draugluin and Thuringwethil. They hardly get a mention in comparison, yet we can positively identify them as Maia, heeding the call of Melkor. Tom and Goldberry, as I have said many times before, are well known, allocated much space within Tolkiens realm and yet still elude the Maia link.

They only elude the link because the Author didn't specifically say they were Maia. He didn't specifically say they were anything. We, as readers, can readily see that the only "logical and sensible" explanation is that they are Maiar. And they are Maiar because the Author himself doesn't give us any other thing that they could be in his world. I will use your own argument on you... If they were the "essence of time and nature, wouldn't that have been discussed at the Council of Elrond? Surely the Elves would have understood his reason for existence. Weren't the Elves more closely attuned to nature and time than any other Race?

I will end this post with a quote from Gandalf.

from The Return of the King, The Scouring of the Shire
'But if you would know, I am turning aside soon. I am going to have a long talk with Bombadil: such a talk as I have not had in all my time. He is a moss-gatherer, and I have been a stone doomed to rolling. But my rolling days are ending, and now we shall have much to say to one another.'

Sounds to me like Gandalf is going to have a long talk with one of his own to me.

Anc said
It was your 'arrogance' that brought us to this debate O' Great One

Gosh, do you really think I'm arrogant? Surely not.

[Ancalagon]

Originally posted by Grond
You can't believe that Anc. If he is an enigma, he is not a representative of Time... he appears all-powerful within his realm but his realm is limited to the bounds and confines of the Old Forest... just as Goldberry is limited to the bounds and confines surrounding the River Withywindle. Those very restrictions would lend credence to Tom being a Maia of Aule or Yavanna and Goldberry being a Maia of Ulmo. Tom is unique. Maybe he was "the First of the Maia to come down to Middle-earth. He was there before the "Dark Lord"... so if he stayed in Aman, it was short.

I most certainly believe it, as I suspect you do also. I will explore this further however and clarify why both Tom and Goldberry live within their realm, why they are bound to it and why they will die with it.

Firstly, you have glossed over my earlier points relating to their environment as a representation of Middle-Earth overall ecological structure. They live within a micro-environment that mirrors the macro-environment surrounding it. The dwindling state of their lands mimics the advancement of decay around within Middle-Earth.

That alone is not due to the advancement of Sauron and his armies. However, as you rightly pointed out, it is everything to do with the diminishing Elves and the advancement of the race of Men. Certainly the Elves cared for and tended to the nature in which they lived. They understood it better than any other race. Yet the coming of Man and the ravages of Saurons armies, the advancement of Industry, the burning of trees, pollution of rivers reduced Toms land back further and further. He is still here, his land even smaller than it once was, but with the advent of the pollution that is a disease upon Middle-Earth, eventually Tom and Goldberry with wither and die. Tolkien was a visionary in this respect; for even the seasons are affected, therefore Goldberry too. Sauron passed away, but Tom and Goldberry's greater enemy is the destruction caused by Man.

Tom and Goldberry's battle is not with Sauron alone, but against the destruction of the natural environment, in whatever shape or form that may take. Neither is it waged in open war but against the clock, where their delicate eco-system is ever diminished as a result of the poisoning of Middle-Earth. And eventually, when the land cannot sustain itself, when it is beyond repair and the last tree falls, the last river dries up, no flower blooms or grass grows, the seasons cease to be recogniseable, the air we breath is but a polluted gas; Tom and Goldberry are no more. Time in essence for Middle-Earth is stopped. That is why they are a product of their environment, for its death is their death.

You made reference to Goldberry;

You speak of Goldberry's role as representative of seasonal change which is cited from the Author's thoughts on the matter. Interestingly, she isn't portrayed that way in the works themselves. She is the River-daughter... more closely bound to the Withywindle than to the Earth.

Do you think then that this quote from The Fellowship of the Ring simply means Goldberry is washing Toms overcoat and Dirty underwear?

'This is Goldberry's washing day,' he said, 'and her autumn-cleaning. Too wet for hobbit-folk - let them rest while they are able!

That certainly does not sound like the role of a spirit confined to using a washboard in the Withywindle! That is the sound of Goldberry delivering the rains of Autumn, it is her role. By Winter she will be shaking the dandruff from her hair and the snows will cover all the lands! I think you see my point.

Goldberry is not confined to water alone, her role is expanded within her realm and who knows, the effects of Goldberrys actions could well be felt the world over, but we do not know it. What we do know is that she is not simply a bubbling brook.

I look forward to your summation my friend.