Nenya and Ancalagon - Debate

[Ancalagon]

Myself and Nenya are having a debate here in the confines of Ost-in-Edhil.

The question we will be debating is; Were the Tree's 'Telperion' and 'Laurelin' the greatest creations Arda had ever witnessed?

I will be debating for this statement, that they were, and Nenya against it. Nenya has the honours and will open the debate

Enjoy.

[Ancalagon]

Just a further point to this debate which Gothmog has raised; the discussion is centred around the creations within Arda by those who inhabit Arda, not actual creations as a direct result of the theme or Eru, eg. Elves or Men.

[Nenya Evenstar]

First of all I would like to thank Anc for challenging me to this debate in the first place. I am very honored by the challenge, and am very much looking forward to the experience. Secondly, I would like to thank the Guild of Ost-in-Edhil for hosting this debate in their guild.

I am taking the stance that the Trees 'Telperion' and 'Laurelin' were not the greatest creations Arda had ever witnessed.

To begin: It is impossible to say that one of the many creations in Middle-earth is greater or more important than another creation. It would be folly, for each creation is a part of the whole and as such is just as equally great or important as another. A single creation in the history of Arda cannot simply be said to be the most significant creation in that history, for the history is made up of many parts; and though one part be smaller than another, all parts play different rolls in the long run to create the whole. Every part has a plan, a place, and a reason for being there. From the Sil, Of the Beginning of Days:

But Iluvatar knew that Men, being set amid the turmoils of the powers of the world, would stray often, and would not use their gifts in harmony; and he said: "These too in their time shall find that all that they do redounds at the end only to the glory of my work."

Though one creation may seem to play a larger part than another creation, in the long run all creations make up a part of the whole. And so, just because one creation has a larger role than another does not mean that it is greater or more significant in any way, shape, or form than the other creation. From BOLT I, The Music of the Ainur:

Then said Iluvatar: "Mighty are the Ainur, and glorious, and among them is Melko the most powerful in knowledge; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung and played, lo! I have caused to be.... Thou Melko shalt see that no theme can be played save it come in the end of Iluvatar's self, nor can any alter the music in Iluvatar's despite. He that attempts this finds himself in the end but aiding me in devising a thing of still greater grandeur and more complex wonder....

Everything that was, is, or will be on Arda will in its turn bring glory to Iluvatar in the grand scheme of things. If even the evil of Melkor brings glory to the Creator, how much more will the creations of the good forces bring him glory? And all those creations are brought together into one thing to form one body. Arda is not as glorious without all of its components, and none of these components are any greater or more significant than the others, for they all constitute a part of the whole.


Now, to look at some things about the Two Trees. From the Sil., Of the Coming of Elves:

Then she (Varda) began a great labor, greatest of all the works of the Valar since their coming into Arda. She took the silver dews from the vats of Telperion, and therewith she made new stars and brighter against the coming of the Firstborn....

So from the Two Trees came the stars; and the Elven Kin's love came from the stars, for they awoke at Cuivenen and first of all things saw the stars of heaven.

From the Sil., Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor:

Yet even as hope failed and her (Yavanna) song faltered, Telperion bore at last upon a leafless bough one great flower of silver, and Laurelin a single fruit of gold.

These Yavanna took; and then the Trees died.... But the flower and the fruit Yavanna gave to Aule, and Manwe hallowed them, and Aule and his people made vessels to hold them and preserve their radiance: as is said in the Narsilion, the Song of the Sun and Moon.

The Sun and the Moon came also from the Two Trees.

From the Sil., Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor:

Yet that crystal was to the Silmarils but as is the body to the Children of Iluvatar: the house of its inner fire, that is within it and yet in all parts of it, and is its life. And the inner fire of the Silmarils Feanor made of the blended light of the Trees of Valinor, which lives in them yet, though the Trees have long withered and shine no more.

So the radiance of the Silmarills was also come from Telperion and Laurelin. Thus, however indirectly, the Two Trees were in part connected to the rebellion of the Noldor, the flight of the Noldor, and the Wars of Beleriand fought against Morgoth.

... Yavanna made for them a tree like to a lesser image of Telperion, save that it did not give light of its own being; Galathilion it was named in the Sindarin tongue. This tree was planted in the courts beneath the Mindon and there flourished, and its seedlings were many in Eldamar. Of these one was afterwards planted in Tol Eressea, and it prospered there, and was named Celeborn; thence came in the fullness of time, as is elsewhere told, Nimloth, the White Tree of Numenor.

From this we get that the image of Telperion lived on, and indeed as far as we know never died out. We are left in ROTK with Aragorn finding a sapling. From ROTK, The Steward and the King:

And he climbed to it, and saw that out of the very edge of the snow there sprang a sapling.... Then Aragorn cried: "Ye! utuvienyes! I have found it! Lo! Here is a scion of the Eldest of Trees!....

Telperion, at least, lived on in the memory of these trees of Numenor.

Now, why have I shown these comparisons? For this: Telperion and Laurelin may have been two of the most magnificent of creations to look at, but they were by no means greater or more important than many other creations. I have illustrated this to show how everything, no matter how great or small, ties in together. Creations relate to each other and no creation stands on its own. It is not a single creation that should be looked at, but the whole picture of creations flowing together to create one big picture. Without the creation of the Two Trees, perhaps the Silmarills would not have been created, but without the creation of the Silmarills then the Glory of the Trees would not have been preserved. Each work relates to another which in turn relates to another or back again to the work which created it. One work cannot be said to be more important than another, for that work will undoubtedly lead on to some other work, and whether that new work be of seemingly greater or lesser importance, in the long run it is just as important as the work which started it for it helps bring about the entire picture.

[Ancalagon]

Hello Nenya

A single creation in the history of Arda cannot simply be said to be the most significant creation in that history, for the history is made up of many parts; and though one part be smaller than another, all parts play different rolls in the long run to create the whole.

So let me just clarify what you are saying; A whole is greater than the sum of its parts!
If I am correct in my summation of your opening statement and the general thrust of your approach, then I agree with you entirely. However, as we are actually discussing creations within Arda itself, we need to understand clearly what your interpretation of the 'whole' is in this case! Can I assume that you mean Arda itself, and the playing of time and fate within Arda, even though made up of many parts, is actually a singular event, which in turn is a 'creation?'

The question is; Were the Tree's 'Telperion' and 'Laurelin' the greatest creations Arda had ever witnessed?

So, when we consider the unfolding events within Arda after the actual music, we witness throughout the history a multitude of events and creations each an individual, but all part of an ever evolving history. However, from your opening statement, no matter what event or creation takes place within Arda, they are all insignificant in their own right, as only by combining them can we assume them to be great or 'whole?' Therefore, I am actually debating against you on the matter that 'time' within Arda is the greatest creation?

It is not a single creation that should be looked at, but the whole picture of creations flowing together to create one big picture.

If this is your stance, then I am unsure how to continue, as time is continuous, therefore events are continuous, otherwise known as a 'continuum' or a homogenous whole! So in fact, no event is considered relevant as each is entirely immeasureable?

[Nenya Evenstar]

Can I assume that you mean Arda itself, and the playing of time and fate within Arda, even though made up of many parts, is actually a singular event, which in turn is a 'creation?

I believe that you have misunderstood me. I have taken the stance that no creation in Arda is greater than another creation. I have not picked any creation which I think to be greater than Telperion and Laurelin, but have said rather that one creation cannot be picked over another. Therefore, I am setting most creations on an equal plain. I merely illustrated their "equalness" by stating that they all work together, and if left standing alone do not accomplish the same purpose.

However, from your opening statement, no matter what event or creation takes place within Arda, they are all insignificant in their own right, as only by combining them can we assume them to be great or 'whole?' Therefore, I am actually debating against you on the matter that 'time' within Arda is the greatest creation?

I never said that any one creation was "insignificant" in its own right. I have merely said that it is impossible to say one creation is more significant than another creation, and to illustrate this I used the fact that all creations work together. So, in actuality, my stance is that no creation can be considered greater than another. I find this perfectly in the scope of things as our topic is: Were the Tree's 'Telperion' and 'Laurelin' the greatest creations Arda had ever witnessed? You have chosen to debate that Telperion and Laurelin were the greatest creations Arda had ever witnessed, and I am debating that they were not the greatest creations Arda had ever witnessed. However, instead of picking another creation which I deem to be greater or more significant, I have chosen to debate from the standpoint that no creation is necessarily greater than another - thus making Telperion and Laurelin by no means the greatest creations in the history of Arda.

So, you could consider each creation (Telperion and Laurelin, the Nauglamir, the One Ring, the Silmarills) a piece on a gigantic chessboard. The creations which seem big, or the Queens, are very obviously significant in the chess game. However, the pawns, though in size and appearance seem less significant, are just as important as the Queens. History and Time are the game itself. Every peice on the chessboard is great in its own way, and the game would not function as well if one peice were missing. This is simply an analogy - my proof as to why each creation is as equal as another.

Hope that helped!

[Ancalagon]

History and the continuation of time is made up of individual, significant and insignificant events. Not all events in history impact upon each other, as many simply happen in parallel, unless of course you desperately try to find some tenuous link, which of course is clearly how you are approaching the subject. This of course is a perfectly acceptable stance to take, especially when you consider the impact that Telperion and Laurelin had in shaping history. I can fully understand that rather than try to pinpoint another event of such historical influence, the only possible avenue left open is to try and play down this particular creations unique importance and try to circumnavigate it entirely.

If no creation or event in Arda's history is more important than another, how then can the influence of one event have such lasting reprecussions throughout an entire age or entire history? If you look at specific, individual events in Arda, it is simple to clearly see the impact of their influence in making history. Now, each certainly has its place in the whole, recorded history of Arda, yet to deny the importance of specific events and simply lump them in together is to deny the very essence of achievement and award significant events their due place in history. Of course, this is not what you are doing, you are saying that no matter how small or insignificant the event, it is just as important in the long-term as a large, significant and lasting event in the natural timeline!

Every peice on the chessboard is great in its own way, and the game would not function as well if one peice were missing. This is simply an analogy - my proof as to why each creation is as equal as another.

So, as far as you would be concerned; the invention of the wheel is no more important and significant in history as the invention of umbrellas for cocktails, for both play out in time in equal measures?

So, in actuality, my stance is that no creation can be considered greater than another.

Sorry, but I just don't buy into this at all. Depending on the event itself we can determine the lasting impact on history, there is no denying that the creation of Laurelin and Telperion is the single most significant event in Arda's History. Why? Because no other event in Arda shapes or influences history in the same way.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Of course, this is not what you are doing, you are saying that no matter how small or insignificant the event, it is just as important in the long-term as a large, significant and lasting event in the natural timeline!

So, as far as you would be concerned; the invention of the wheel is no more important and significant in history as the invention of umbrellas for cocktails, for both play out in time in equal measures?

I am afraid that you either overlooked or have simply chosen to ignore this part of my post:

"Therefore, I am setting most creations on an equal plain."

I included this little part in my post for the simple purpose of clearing issues such as this. You are obviously relying on the only thing that you can think of to create a hole in my theory. I was in no way considering that we were talking about such trivial things as cocktail umbrellas. I considered that it would be understood that I am talking about bigger creations than that. Also, I would like to point out that we are discussing the first ages of Middle-earth; not the 21st century in our world. Clearly if you have settled back on such a petty little thing you must be lacking any better proof.

Depending on the event itself we can determine the lasting impact on history, there is no denying that the creation Laurelin and Telperion is the single most significant event in Arda's History. Why? Because no other event in Arda shapes or influences history in the same way.

My friend! I am afraid that that is a very untrue statement.

From the Sil, Of the Sindar:

In those days, it is said , Daeron the Minstrel, chief loremaster of the kingdom of Thingol, devised his Runes; and the Naugrim that came to Thingol learned them, and were well-pleased with the device, esteeming Daeron's skill higher than did the Sindar, his own people. By the Naugrim the Cirth were taken east over the mountains and passed into the knowledge of many peoples; but they were little used by the Sindar for the keeping of records, until the days of the War, and much that was held in memory perished in the ruins of Doriath.

Writing was by all means a creation. I am sorry, but you cannot try to convince me that Telperion and Silpion were more significant in the History of Middle-earth than writing was. That in itself is obvious.

You could also take a look at the One Ring. From The Sil, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age:

Thus the Black Years began, which the Elves call the Days of Flight.

From FotR, The Shadow of the Past:

The Enemy still lacks one thing to give him strength and knowledge to beat down all resistance, break the last defences, and cover all the lands in a second darkness. He lacks the One Ring.

Now, I am afraid that you cannot tell me that the One Ring is any less significant than the Two Trees either. With this weapon Sauron ruled the Black Years at the end of the Second Age, and nearly succeeded in producing another span of Black Years at the end of the Third Age. The Ring had so much impact on Middle-earth! I am afraid that it is not possible to rate the influence of The Two trees over such a creation.

From the Sil., Of the Silmarills:

And when Melkor saw that these lies were smouldering, and that pride and anger were awake among the Noldor, he spoke to them concerning weapons; and in that time the Noldor began the smithying of swords and axes and spears.

Weapons. Here is yet another example of how terribly impossible it is to put one creation in greatness over another. The Trees or weapons? How could we decide such a question?

Must I continue? There are many more things which I could refer to. You see, no matter how small a creation may seem does mean that it is insignificant or less great than any other creation. I am afraid that the only way to look at this question correctly is to look at it from this angle - any other angle is choosing to ignore the obvious.

[Ancalagon]

The simple fact remains, all things are not equal. All events have differing aspects of impact upon their environment.

You have entered this debate stating all things, no matter their origin, size or impact will eventually turn to the glory of Eru

But Iluvatar knew that Men, being set amid the turmoils of the powers of the world, would stray often, and would not use their gifts in harmony; and he said: "These too in their time shall find that all that they do redounds at the end only to the glory of my work."

Then said Iluvatar: "Mighty are the Ainur, and glorious, and among them is Melko the most powerful in knowledge; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung and played, lo! I have caused to be.... Thou Melko shalt see that no theme can be played save it come in the end of Ilúvatar’s self, nor can any alter the music in Ilúvatar’s despite. He that attempts this finds himself in the end but aiding me in devising a thing of still greater grandeur and more complex wonder....

So, we know for a fact, that no matter how great the creation, it is to his glory.

Everything that was, is, or will be on Arda will in its turn bring glory to Iluvatar in the grand scheme of things.

As a result, you cannot deny that within Arda, the creations or events that are we are discussing, do not come in equal measures. So, forgive me for being pedantic, but are we focusing on the greatness of creations within Arda, or simply the fact that no matter what it is, it is to the glory of Eru? If we are focusing on the measure of creations within Arda, then each can be measured with differing degrees of influence. If all are attributed to Eru, that is irrelevant, because each instance is still either greater or lesser no matter what the grand scheme of thing may be.
You seem to be shifting from pillar to post regarding the matter of the 'equal' in this instance. You quoted in response to my earlier question;

Therefore, I am setting most creations on an equal plain.... I included this little part in my post for the simple purpose of clearing issues such as this. You are obviously relying on the only thing that you can think of to create a hole in my theory. I was in no way considering that we were talking about such trivial things as cocktail umbrellas. I considered that it would be understood that I am talking about bigger creations than that.

I again need some clarification on this, either all are equal or some are more equal than others?? In other words, by saying ' most ', you acknowledge that some creations in Arda are most definitely more significant than others? The fact that these give glory to Eru in the end is of absolutely no concern in this debate, because our interest lies in the greater of the creations in Arda. Of course all give glory to Eru, but each creation within Arda has a different measure of significance, so in fact he is irrelevant to this debate.

[Nenya Evenstar]

All events have differing aspects of impact upon their environment.

So, we know for a fact, that no matter how great the creation, it is to his glory.

If we are focusing on the measure of creations within Arda, then each can be measured with differing degrees of influence.

I cannot agree with you more! You have stated this very eloquently. Yes, creations have different degrees of influence but just because something is more influential does not make it greater, more significant, or more important. Influence is the state of being able to affect others. So, yes, some creations affected their surroundings more than other creations did. But, just because something has affected its surroundings more than something else does not make that something more important or greater than what it has affected. Let me use an analogy: Take a plow, for example. The plow infuenced in many ways the production of goods from the soil. Without the plow, crops would have been much harder to produce than they were. Which is more important? The plow is definately influential in the planting process, but which is more important? The crops or the plow? You see, it works in a circle. Something that is influential is not necessarily greater than what it is influencing. Let me use another example from The Sil.: The light of Telperion and Laurelin was trapped inside the body of the Silmarills giving them their most potent beauty. Now, which is more important? The creation which influenced the Silmarills or the Silmarills themselves? Both are equally important. Without one the other would have been affected.

So, forgive me for being pedantic, but are we focusing on the greatness of creations within Arda, or simply the fact that no matter what it is, it is to the glory of Eru?

Why have you bounced back to this point? We are, of course, focusing on the greatness of creations within Arda. However, you cannot overlook Eru. For example: You have a puzzle sitting in front of you. All the pieces are there except for one which you cannot find. There are a variety of shapes and sizes of puzzle pieces, but all of them work together to finish the puzzle. This piece that is missing happens to be very, very small, yet the puzzle is not complete without it. The puzzle is the World, and the pieces are each creations within the World. If one creation goes missing, no matter how small or influential it is towards its neighboring creations, the entire World suffers and cannot be complete until that creation is found, created, and put in its place. Therefore, the glory that the World gives to Iluvatar is not complete unless that last piece is found. So, you see, though some things may be more or less influential than others they are by no means greater or lesser. Influence is not greater. Influence is merely something that affects things. Greatness is something that is better than another, and significance or importance is the same. Everything is important, and everything is great in its own way. That is what I mean by equal.

In other words, by saying ' most ', you acknowledge that some creations in Arda are most definitely more significant than others?

In other words by saying "most" I mean that cocktail umbrellas and such appear to have practically no influence. However, perhaps they do? Who knows what Iluvatar in his infinite wisdom could concoct for a cocktail umbrella?

The fact that these give glory to Eru in the end is of absolutely no concern in this debate, because our interest lies in the greater of the creations in Arda.

But, as you can see, this fact has everything to do with this debate!

Now, I am still hungry for some proof from your side as to why Telperion and Laurlin are supposedly the greatest creations in the History of Arda. I notice that you have completely ignored and disregarded the last part of my recent post and instead have concentrated on something that deviates from your side of the debate. Would you like some more proof? Very well, I shall give it to you!
From the Sil., Of Aule and Yavanna:

It is told that in their beginning the Dwarves were made by Aule in the darkness of Middle-earth; for so greatly did Aule desire the coming of the Children, to have learners to whom he could teach his lore and his crafts, that he was unwilling to await the fulfilment of the designs of Iluvatar. And Aule made the Dwarves even as they still are, because the forms of the Children who were to come were unclear to his mind, and because the power of Melkor was yet over the Earth; and he wished therefore that they should be strong and unyielding.

The Dwarves were by all means a creation. Iluvatar saw Aule's work and amended it because of Aule's humility and humbleness. Though the spirit of the Dwarves came from Iluvatar, the original work was Aule's handiwork. Can you tell me that Telperion and Silpion were greater than the Dwarves? I have decided to leave the Ents out of this as their origin is a little more skeptical, and I do not wish to go over my bounds in this debate.

[Ancalagon]

Thank-you Nenya, that was an interesting read, though I am still dissatisfied with the explanation of all creations being equal. In particular, scattered throughout this debate you have constantly given examples of things you feel are either lesser, greater or equal to The Tree's, therefore I can assume, that even though all may be to the glory of Eru in the end, within Arda, all creations are not equal within Arda. Even if you believe them to be equal it is my role to prove you wrong.

However, in the end it is up to the judges to decide whether they feel some things are more equal than others and decide which is the greater of these equals.

And as they watched, upon the mound there came forth two slender shoots; and silence was over the entire world in that hour, nor was there any other sound save the chanting of Yavanna. Under her song the saplings grew and became fair and tall, and came to flower; and thus there awoke in the world the Two Trees of Valinor. Of all things which Yavanna made they have most renown, and about their fate all the tales of the Elder Days are woven .

When one considers greatness in respect of a creation, it is the impact that creation has upon fate. How it weaves, binds, flows or impacts upon the very fabric and history of an entire world. Eru himself made creations of his own greater than others. In other words, even Iluvatar in his wisdom created a hierarchy, an elite among all his works. Often you refer to Eru, 'The One' who cannot be denied his glory, as he is the essence of all. All things flow from him and back to him, to his greater glory.

And it came to pass that Ilúvatar called together all the Ainur and declared to them a mighty theme, unfolding to them things greater and more wonderful than he had yet revealed; and the glory of its beginning and the splendour of its end amazed the Ainur, so that they bowed before Ilúvatar and were silent.

Yet, even among his creations, there are greater and lesser entities. Iluvatar is the source; he is the inspiration, which drives his own to do greater works, greater achievements and even greater evils.

To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren.

This translates, to the Valar, who to the glory of Eru, would descend into the World and ever seek to better their works.

Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Ilúvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and fairest, took the leave of Ilúvatar and descended into it.

And so the great labour begins. The shaping of the realm, the development of Arda and the preparation for the Children. It is in this preparation, in these mighty works that I count the Tree's Laurelin and Telperion as their most influential and greatest deed. You have touched upon them yourself in your opening statement, glanced over their relevance, and overlooked their renown. For at the very heart of the greatest of individual works are these Trees. They are the origin of The Stars, The Silmarils, The Sun and The Moon; they are the beginning of all these timeless works. They were an inspiration to all who witnessed them and ever present to those who did not, an object of doom and hatred for a few. The Firstborn had their fate woven about them, while they became a sign of a new dawn and a symbol of liberation for the Secondborn. Even the Dwarves were captured in the fate of them; The Nauglimir you mentioned earlier is a creation of surpassing beauty and renown, yet found its own fate woven with that of the Trees. Without question, these Trees are the greatest of all Arda's creations because they were fated to touch the lives of every living creature within. Ever since the records of time began, we see the greatness of these Trees impact upon Arda. Actually, there is a relationship worth detailing;

Thus began the Days of the Bliss of Valinor; and thus began also the Count of Time.

The measurement of time originating from these greatest creations. An interesting quote from 'The Annals of Aman' relates this count;

It hath been computed by the Masters of Lore that the Valar came to the Kingdom of Arda, which is this Earth, five and forty thousand years of our time ere the first rising of the Moon. And of these thirty thousand passed ere the measurement of Time began with the flowering of the Trees. These were the Days before Days. And fifteen thousand years followed after during which the Light of the Trees yet lived, and nigh on six hundred more of the New Sun and Moon after the slaying of the Trees. And these are called the Eldar Days, and with their ending ended the First Age of Time, and Melkor was thrust from the world.

It is interesting that earlier you stated much of the relationships the Trees had with some of Arda's greatest creations. I can say with absolute conviction, that every creation is truly great in its own right; The Stars, The Silmarils, The Sun and The Moon. Yet, what is the origin of each? Which is central and essential to each of these creations? From what do these and many other creations emanate? Each of these creations is a standalone work of excellence, and all are a source of Telperion and Laurelin. Personally, I cannot glibly relate each as being of equal importance, as I believe the greatness will always be in the essence of their origin.

[Nenya Evenstar]

And thank-you, Anc, for the read as well. I am sorry that you are not satisfied with my explanation of all creations being equal, but I would like to point out that I have not scattered throughout this debate examples of things which I feel to be lesser, greater, or equal to the two trees, but have stated rather that I think it is impossible to rate the creations one above another.

I find it interesting how after so adamantly insisting that Eru does not belong in this debate you go along with my explanation of why he must be in this debate and use him in your posts. However, I think you are looking at these quotes in the wrong light:

And it came to pass that Iluvatar called together all the Ainur and declared to them a mighty theme, unfolding to them things greater and more wonderful than he had yet revealed; and the glory of its beginning and the splendour of its end amazed the Ainur, so that they bowed before Iluvatar and were silent.

Notice that the first quote you gave me does not say "unfolding to them things more important and things more wonderful" but "things greater and things more wonderful. The word "great" can have more than one meaning, and from the context of this passage, given the picture of spendour and the adjective "wonderful," I take the word "greater" here to mean "more excellent or finer." This quote does not suggest to me any meaning of greater importance.

To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren.

In your second quote the word "greatest" does not mean "more important" but "of much more ordinary size or extent."

Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Iluvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and fairest, took the leave of Iluvatar and descended into it.

The third quote is much the same as the first in context. "Greatest" here means simply "most excellent or finest," not "most important." Just because something is more excellent than something else does not make it more important (much less making one of the Ainur more important than another).

When one considers greatness in respect of a creation, it is the impact that creation has upon fate. How it weaves, binds, flows or impacts upon the very fabric and history of an entire world.

Here you describe greatness as being the magnitude of the creation's sphere of influence. I have been over this point before and have given it a rather good description, if I may so so myself. Influence is not importance, as illustrated by my many analogies.

You have touched upon them yourself in your opening statement, glanced over their relevance, and overlooked their renown.

I believe that I have given the Trees more than their fair share of attention. I have said time and time again how creations do not work alone and cannot work alone. The Silmarills depended on the Trees, yes, but the Trees also depended on the Silmarills. Without the Trees there would have been no Silmarills, but without the Silmarills the Light of the Trees would not have been preserved. So which is more important? I do not think such a question is possible to answer. All these creations work together in more or less the same way, and without one all suffer.

Yet, what is the origin of each?

Just because the Trees are the origin of many creations (as I have said in past posts) does not mean that they are more important. I know that you disagree with me here, but I am afraid that we will have to continue disagreeing. Was Adolph Hitler greater than WWII? He was one of the main men at the root and origin of the War, but was he more important than the war itself? Forgive me for using a man out of the 20th century after getting on you for using such an analogy, but I think the illustration is to the point. How can someone make such a decision? The importance of the two Trees works the same in their sphere of influence.

I fail to see your point concerning the beginning of the Count of Time making the Trees the most important creation. The Count of Time is not the beginning of Time. The trees were simply a convenient thing to start counting with. Where does importance factor in?

I can say with absolute conviction, that every creation is truly great in its own right;

I see that you have admitted the fact that every creation is great in its own right. Who are we to say that one is more important than another? Each has its place, and if one is removed all suffer. That in itself makes all important.

I see that you have still not commented on the last part of my recent posts. I can tell that you are merely concentrating on disproving my stance without a glance at those "thorns" that I am putting out. So far you have only been able to comment on things which were influenced by the Trees. What about writing? What about The One Ring? What about Dwarves? What about Weapons?

[Ancalagon]

What about Dwarves?

Dwarves, the ‘dolls’ of Aule, that do not actually impact upon the greater fate of Arda. They delve and seek fortunes, hide away from other races and rarely face the enemy that Elves and Men so readily rose against. Little dealing they had with other races, unless need forced them. They raped and plundered the earth that gave them life all to their own ends, but more importantly, these dolls of Aule were only made whole by the interjection of Eru, which means they fall into the same category as Elves or Men in this debate! Why do Orcs not qualify then if you wish to use this logic? They were a creation of Morgoth, an abomination, but still in their own sickening way a creation. What about Dragons, do they qualify also? Because even if they do, they did not compare to the Trees and their great, lasting impact upon Arda and its fate.

What about Weapons?

Weapons are but a tool for the masses, no more than fists or feet, but an extension of an individual’s ability to do evil against another! A fork or a stick is just as deadly as a sword if you really need a comparison. But the fact remains, the will behind the need to use a weapon is more important than the weapon itself.

What about Writing?

'Andreth adaneth, the life and love of the Eldar dwells much in memory; and we (if not ye) would rather have a memory that is fair but unfinished than one that goes on to a grievous end. Now he will ever remember thee in the sun of morning, and that last evening by the water of Aeluin in which he saw thy face mirrored with a star caught in thy hair - ever, until the North-wind brings the night of his flame. Yea, and after that, sitting in the House of Mandos in the Halls of Awaiting until the end of Arda.'

What does it matter to an Elf, an Immortal, whether something is written down for posterity? Surely they remember all their days, kept locked in their memory because that is their strength.

Beyond the End of the World we shall not change; for in memory is our great talent, as shall be seen ever more clearly as the ages of this Arda pass: a heavy burden to be, I fear; but in the Days of which we now speak a great wealth.'

Both quotes are taken from ATHRABETH FINROD AH ANDRETH.

What about memory, the stories passed down through families by word of mouth? Eru gifted Men and Elves with a memory, is that not a powerful tool in itself? It is only in recent times that business transactions were subject to written agreements. A practised skill of bartering, discussing and finally the clasp of hands was a potent force in dealings in trade. 'A Man's word is his bond' was not a lightly forsaken agreement, especially when you consider how many in the Arda would have been totally illiterate. This does not mean they were ignorant, just the fact they had no need of letters to achieve a goal. Truth is, letters only record what Man or Elf does, so we know a history through record, but in truth, we also have a history through word of mouth, and both are subject to elaborations and twists, so are we any better off?

The Ring?

The trinket of Morgoths lieutenant? All it was an item of Gold that held the will of Sauron. It was but an extension of the Dark Lord himself. So, in reality the Ring is nothing more than the will of Sauron, a small device that would have been more potent, had he not managed to lose it in the first place. Remember, Sauron is still a powerful force on his own, even without the Ring, yet the Ring itself was a weakness that haunted him when beyond his reach. The effects of the Ring do not live on, even in its passing. Nor did it signify the passing of Elves from Middle-Earth, for it is well understood the Rising of the Sun signalled their end, even as the Atani awoke. The Ring itself made little impact upon Arda as a whole, for life went on, even through the long years it was lost. Sauron was the problem; the Ring was his 'Achilles Heel' if you like, for when it was lost, his weaknesses were laid bare. Once he was gone and the Ring destroyed, what was left for us to wonder that this was a great creation?

Compare all these to the Count of Time. The Stars in the night sky that awoke the Firstborn, The Silmarils that shaped the History of the Noldor and the Houses of Men that gave them their allegiance, which led to the Downfall of the Greatest of Eru's creations. The Sun rising every day, even as it did to beckon the arrival of the Secondborn, as it still does across this mythological land. The Moon should we forget, that lights a path for the traveller at night and give hope to all who looked upon it in their darkest hours. The Trees, those creations that lit Valinor for the longest age and were fated to touch the lives of every soul in Arda, now and still continue to do so with every Sunrise and Sunset. What is great about them is the fact that they do not have an equal in the grand scheme, for they are unique, inspirational and fantastic, more than any other creation Arda has ever yet seen. They are the Sun, the Moon and the Stars.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Dwarves, the 'dolls' of Aule, that do not actually impact upon the greater fate of Arda. They delve and seek fortunes, hide away from other races and rarely face the enemy that Elves and Men so readily rose against. Little dealing they had with other races, unless need forced them. They raped and plundered the earth that gave them life all to their own ends....

The Sil:

From Nogrod and Belegost the Naugrim came forth into Beleriand.... Few of the Eldar went ever to Nogrod and Belegost, save Eöl of Nan Elmoth and Maeglin his son; but the Dwarves trafficked into Beleriand.... Ever cool was the friendship between the Naugrim and the Eldar, though much profit they had one of the other; but at that time those griefs that lay between them had not yet come to pass, and King Thingol welcomed them. But the Naugrim gave their friendship more readily to the Noldor in.... In the darkness of Arda already the Dwarves wrought great works, for even from the first days of their Fathers they had marvellous skill with metals and with stone; but in that ancient time iron and copper they loved to work, rather than silver or gold.

The Sil:

He (Thingol) took thought therefore how he should make for himself a kingly dwelling, and a place that should be strong, if evil were to awake again in Middle-earth; and he sought aid and counsel of the Dwarves of Belegost. They gave it willingly for they were unwearied in those days and eager for new works; and though the Dwarves ever demanded a price for all that they did, whether with delight or with toil, at this time they held themselves paid.

The Sil:

But as the third age of the captivity of Melkor drew on, the Dwarves became troubled, and they spoke to King Thingol, saying that the Valar had not rooted out utterly the evils of the North....

Therefore Thingol took thought for arms, which before his people had not needed, and these at first the Naugrim smithied for him; for they were greatly skilled in such work....

The Sil:

Their smithcraft indeed the Sindar soon learned of them; yet in the tempering of steel alone of all crafts the Dwarves were never outmatched even by the Noldor, and in the making of mail of linked rings, which was first contrived by the smiths of Belegost, their work had no rival.
At this time therefore the Sindar were well-armed, and they drove off all creatures of evil, and had peace again; but Thingol's armouries were stored with axes and with spears and swords, and tall helms, and long coats of bright mail; for the hauberks of the Dwarves were so fashioned that they rusted not but shone ever as if they were now-burnished. And that proved well for Thingol in the time that was to come.

The Sil:

And thus it was that Caranthir's people came upon the Dwarves.... Nevertheless since both peoples feared and hated Morgoth they made alliance, and had of it great profit....

The Sil:

.... and that stronghold was called Nargothrond. In that labour Finrod was aided by the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains; and they were rewarded well.... And in that time was made for him the Nauglamír, the Necklace of the Dwarves, most renowned of their works in the Elder Days.

The Sil:

Often he went with Eöl to the cities of the Dwarves in the east of Ered Lindon, and there he learned eagerly what they would teach, and above all the craft of finding the ores of metals in the mountains.

The Sil:

At length Maedhros, having gathered all the strength that he could of Elves and Men and Dwarves, resolved to assault Angband from east and west....

The Sil:

Yet fate saved the sons of Fëanor, and though all were wounded none were slain, for they drew together, and gathering a remnant of the Noldor and the Naugrim about them they hewed a way out of the battle and escaped far away towards Mount Dolmed in the east.

The Sil:

Last of all the eastern force to stand firm were the Dwarves of Belegost, and thus they won renown. For the Naugrim withstood fire more hardily than either Elves or Men, and it was their custom moreover to wear great masks in battle hideous to look upon; and those stood them in good stead against the dragons. And but for them Glaurung and his brood would have withered all that was left of the Noldor. But the Naugrim made a circle about him when he assailed them, and even his mighty armour was not full proof against the blows of their great axes; and when in his rage Glaurung turned and struck down Azaghâl. Lord of Belegost, and crawled over him, with his last stroke Azaghâl drove a knife into his belly, and so wounded him that he fled the field, and the beasts of Angband in dismay followed after him....

The Sil:

But the dwarf that they had taken was named Mîm; and he pleaded for his life before Túrin, and offered as ransom to lead them to his hidden halls which none might find without his aid.

The Sil:

But now one had come, and stood upon the threshold; and Mîm came forth, and demanded to know his purpose. But Húrin said: 'How are you, that would hinder me from entering the house of Finrod Felagund?'
Then the Dwarf answered: 'I am Mîm; and before the proud ones came from over the Sea, Dwarves delved the halls of Nulukkizdîn. I have but returned to take what is mine; for I am the last of my people.'

The Sil:

In those days the Dwarves still came on their journeys into Beleriand... for their skill in the working of metal and stone was very great, and there was much need of their craft in the halls of Menegroth.... At that very time great craftsmen of Nogrod were lately come into Doriath; and the King therefore summoning them declared his desire, that if their skill were great enough they should remake the Nauglamír, and in it set the Silmaril.... Then the lust of the Dwarves was kindled to rage by the words of the King; and they rose up about him, and laid hands on him, and slew him as he stood....Then the Dwarves taking the Nauglamír passed out of Menegroth and fled eastwards through Region. But tidings went swiftly through the forest, and few of that company came over Aros, for they were pursued to the death as they sought the eastward road; and the Nauglamír was retaken, and brought back in better grief to Melian the Queen.... Then great was the wrath and lamentation of the Dwarves of Nogrod for the death of their kin and their great craftsmen, and they tore their beards, and wailed; and long they sat taking thought for vengeance. It is told that they asked aid from Belegost, but it was denied them, and the Dwarves of Belegost sought to dissuade them from their purpose; but their counsel was unavailing, and ere long a great host came forth from Nogrod, and crossing over Gelion marched westward through Beleriand.

The Sil:

For there was battle in the Thousand Caves, and many Elves and Dwarves were slain; and it has not been forgotten. But the Dwarves were victorious, and the halls of Thingol were ransacked and plundered....

The Sil:

Thus it came to pass that when the dwarves of Nogrod, returning from Menegroth with diminished host, came again to Sarn Athrad, they were assailed by unseen enemies; for as they climbed up Gelion's banks burdened with the spoils of Doriath, suddenly all the woods were filled with the sound of elven-horns, and shafts sped upon them from every side.

In that battle by Sarn Athrad Beren fought his last fight, and himself slew the Lord of Nogrod, and wrested from him the Necklace of the Dwarves; but he dying laid his curse upon all the treasure.

Unfinished Tales:

Both Elves and Dwarves had great profit from this association: so that Eregion became far stronger, and Khazad-dûm far more beautiful, than either would have done alone.

The Sil:

Seven rings he gave to the Dwarves.... The Dwarves indeed proved tough and hard to tame; they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom, not can they be turned to shadows.

The Sil:

Of the Dwarves few fought upon either side; but the kindred of Durin of Moria fought against Sauron.

Morgoth's Ring:

On earlier references to the Dwarves in Beleriand see IV.336; as I noted there, the statement in the second version of the earliest Annals of Beleriand (IV.332) that the Dwarves had 'of old' a road into Beleriand is the first sign of the later idea that the Dwarves had been active in Beleriand long before the Return of the Noldor.

[Nenya Evenstar]

To continue on the Dwarves:

Unfinished Tales:

Elrond had gathered such a few of the Elves of Eregion as had escaped, but he had no force to withstand the onset. He would indeed have been overwhelmed had not Sauron's host been attacked in the rear; for Durin sent out a force of Dwarves from Khazad-dûm, and with them came Elves of Lórinand led by Amroth.... Sauron withdrew the pursuit of Elrond and turned upon the Dwarves and the Elves of Lórinand, whom he drove back; but the Gates of Moria were shut, and he could not enter. Ever afterwards Moria had Sauron's hate, and all Orcs were commanded to harry Dwarves whenever they might.

The Return of the King:

The power of Moria endured throughout the Dark Years and the dominion of Sauron, for though Eregion was destroyed and the gates of moria were shut, the halls of Khazad-dum were too deep and strong and filled with a people too numerous and valiant for Sauron to conquer from without.

The Return of the King

Durin's Folk gathered all their host, and they were joined by great forces sent from the Houses of other Fathers; for this dishonour to the heir of the Eldest of their race filled them with wrath.... When at last the battle was won the Dwarves that were left gathered in Azanulbizar.

Need I continue? I think that these quotes speak for themselves. "Dolls" of Aule? Hiding away from other races? Rarely facing the Enemy? Having little dealings with other Races? Raping and plundering the earth? No lasting impact? A rather shallow view, I should think!

The Dwarves are a perfectly fine example to use as a creation on my part. Aule created them. All Eru did was give them wills of their own so that they could be seperate from their creator. If we counted everything in the History of Arda which came from Eru's devine intervention, we would not have much to work with. Why have I chosen to use only Dwarves? Ents are a shady issue, Dragons I have my own thoughts of their origin, and Orcs? It would not be possible for me to use Orcs as Orcs are not a creation of their own - they are merely twisted Elves:
The Sil:

But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty. For who of the living has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes. For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar; and naught that had life of its own, not the semblance of life, could ever Melkor make after his rebellion in the Ainulindalë before the Beginning: so say the wise. And deep in their dark hearts the Orcs loathed the Master whom they served in fear, the maker only of their misery. This it may be was the vilest deed of Melkor, and the most hateful to Ilúvatar.

The Orcs are not a creation in themselves - they are merely a twisted version of the Firstborn of Iluvatar. This is why I cannot use them in this debate.

[Nenya Evenstar]

Weapons are but a tool for the masses, no more than fists or feet, but an extension of an individual's ability to do evil against another! A fork or a stick is just as deadly as a sword if you really need a comparison. But the fact remains, the will behind the need to use a weapon is more important than the weapon itself.

From the Sil:

And when Melkor saw that these lies were smouldering, and that pride and anger were awake among the Noldor, he spoke to them concerning weapons; and in that time the Noldor began the smithying of swords and axes and spears.

Swords, axes, and spears were made in response to the lies of Melkor that had become imbedded into the hearts of the Noldor. Why were they made? To increase security, to show off pride, and to increase woe, all because of a false warning. They were made from the very beginning to kill and protect.

Now these were a woodland people and had no weapons of steel, and the coming of the fell beasts of the North filled them with great fear, as the Naugrim declared to King Thingol in Menegroth.

Good, strong weapons were vital in Beleriand for protection against the evil of Morgoth.

But Maedhros had the help of the Naugrim, both in armed force and in great store of weapons; and the smithies of Nogrod and Belegost were busy in those days.

Without weapons, the good peoples of Beleriand would have been swamped and defeated by Morgoth. They could not have wrestled with the Dark Lord and won without weapons.

In those days the Elves of Nargothrond forsook their secrecy and went openly to battle, and great store of weapons were made; and by the counsel of Túrin the Noldor built a mighty bridge over the Narog from the Doors of Felagund, for the swifter passage of their arms.

Weapons are a part of War. Without strong weapons of steel Morgoth would have been even more victorious without a thought. Notice that in my wealth of quotes concerning the Dwarves there is also a wealth of information concerning the weapons needed in the fight against Melkor.

Then Turambar summoned all his will and courage and climbed the cliff alone, and came beneath the dragon. Then he drew Gurghang, and with all the might of his arm, and of his hate, he thrust it into the soft belly of the Worm, even up to the hilts.

Glaurung's death would not have been acheived without the aid of a sword. What it boils down to is this: Without weapons, you have peace, and with weapons you have war. Without good weapons you have more death of your loved ones than life. All throughout the History of Arda there is war, and with that war comes weapons of all sorts. And with weapons comes the death of foes, and without weapons comes the death of friends. Weapons are used to kill both the good and the evil. This is great, and this is influential. I find it interesting to note also that the heros in LOTR all have their swords. Elendil with Narsil, Aragorn with Narsil re-forged, Turin with Gurthang, and in many other places where Tolkien takes the pains to let us know the names of various people's swords. Obviously weapons were important to Tolkien as well.

What does it matter to an Elf, an Immortal, whether something is written down for posterity? Surley they remember all their days, kept locked in their memory because that is their strength.

The Fellowship of the Ring:

Only the Elves still preserve any records of that vanished time, and their traditions are concerned almost entirely with their own history, in which Men appear seldom and Hobbits are not mentioned at all.

But the Elves do keep records and do not rely on only their memory!
The Sil:

By the Naugrim the Cirth were taken east over the mountains and passed into the knowledge of many peoples; but they were little used by the Sindar for the keeping of records, until the days of the War, and much that was held in memory perished in the ruins of Doriath.

Memory may have been a talent for the Elves, but once War began and the days of peace were over, they began to keep records so that History would not be lost. They knew the importance of records.
The Sil:

And the loremasters among them learned also the high Eldarin tongue or the Blessed Realm, in which much story and song was preserved from the beginning of the world; and they made letters and scrolls and books, and wrote in them many things of wisdom and wonder in the high tide of their realm, of which all is now forgot.

Wisdom, knowledge, history, song - all passed on through records to the peoples hungry for them. And what happens when a writing is lost? History is forgotten.
The Fellowship of the Ring:

' "If indeed you look only, as you say, for records of ancient days, and the beginnings of the City, read on! " he said. "For to me what was is less dark than what is to come, and that is my care. But unless you have more skill even than Saruman, who has studied here long, you will find naught that is not well known to me, who am master of the lore of this City." `So said Denethor. And yet there lie in his hoards many records that few now can read, even of the lore-masters, for their scripts and tongues have become dark to later men. And Boromir, there lies in Minas Tirith still, unread, I guess, by any save Saruman and myself since the kings failed, a scroll that Isildur made himself. For Isildur did not march away straight from the war in Mordor, as some have told the tale.'

Records of Ancient days, beginnings of cities, histories of years. From writings comes knowledge of past ages. And you suggest that memory is better! Even Gandalf, a Maia, did not have memory that great. Only a handful of Elves even knew about this passage concerning Isildur, and most of that story had passed into legend. It had been forgotten and filed away until the writings were taken out to rekindle what had been lost.

Writing is also a means for sending messages over long distances during battle and war, a way of putting down one's thoughts, a way of preserving song, and a way of remembering history and learning from it. Where would we be without history? What if writing had not been created in our world? What would our pasts have looked like? We would be lost.
The Fellowship of the Ring:

This account of the end of the Third Age is drawn mainly from the Red Book of Westmarch. That most important source for the history of the War of the Ring was so called because it was long preserved at Undertowers, the home of the Fairbairns, Wardens of the Westmarch.1 It was in origin Bilbo's private diary, which he took with him to Rivendell. Frodo brought it back to the Shire, together with many loose leaves of notes, and during S.R. 1420-1 he nearly filled its pages with his account of the War. But annexed to it and preserved with it, probably in a single red case, were the three large volumes, bound in red leather, that Bilbo gave to him as a parting gift. To these four volumes there was added in Westmarch a fifth containing commentaries, genealogies, and various other matter concerning the hobbit members of the Fellowship.

The Return of the King:

Your hands and your wits will be needed everywhere. You will be the Mayor, of course, as long as you want to be, and the most famous gardener in history; and you will read things out of the Red Book, and keep alive the memory of the age that is gone, so that people will remember the Great Danger and so love their beloved land all the more.

It seems that records of passed ages was very important to Tolkien as well.