Saruman's Caradhras motives

[PRH]

Originally I thought I had Saruman's motives figured out regarding the whole 'waking Carahdras/controlling the storm thing.' I figured he knew Gandalf would want to avoid Moria ("If the mountain defeats you, will you risk the more dangerous road?....Moria, you fear to go that way....You know what the dwarves awoke, shadow and flame.") so by trying to block the pass of Caradhras he figured Gandalf would go through the Gap of Rohan, and close to Isengard. Makes sense right?

Well, on the production team commentary track, Mark Ordesky says that Saruman's motive was to force Gandalf through Moria in order to get him killed by the Balrog so the Fellowship would be defenseless without him. This makes no sense whatsoever. It makes huge assumptions about what will happen in Moria. First off, if Pippin hadn't caused all the noise they'd have gone through scot-free. Next, if Saruman assumes the Balrog will kill Gandalf, the logically assumption is to guess that it would kill the whole Fellowship. What were the odds that Gandalf and the Balrog would simultaneously take each other out? Chances were far better that one or the other would win. Assuming the Balrog had killed Gandalf, it would have killed all the others, probably taken the Ring and certainly not given it to Saruman (or even Sauron) who he had absolutely no alliegance with (and probably even no knowledge of). Nice plan Saruman! You must play craps.

I think Mr. Ordesky is a little cornfused.

[Mablung]

Well I have no answer as to why he assumed they would go through Moria and was certain the Balrog would attack. But I think he assumed Gandalf would do as he did and fight the Balrog himself. Assuming that he also probably assumed that the Fellowship would turn and run out of Moria getting to safety while they were still fighting. Or even if the Balrog did kill all of them and take the ring he was stronger than Gandalf at that point and probably thought he could get it back after all he did think he could take on Sauron.

[Nóm]

Who is Mark Ordesky? What was his job? What he said was probably a bunch of stupid speculation on his part. I do not think that others would agree with him. Hopefully his job didn't require he know this kind of thing!

[Mithlond]

Mark Ordesky is one of the New Line executives isnt he? I believe he was prtty close to Peter Jackson on alot of the decisions with the film, but im not too sure.

[Thorin]

Hence, all the more reason why PJ's Caradhras scene should have remained true to the book. It makes no sense. In the book, there is no mention of Saruman's name involved with the falling the of the mountain. Actually, it was speculated by Gimli that it might be Sauron, but ultimately, Tolkien showed (through other scenes) that it was just the nature of the mountain itself.

By doing what PJ did, he made Saruman more powerful than he was, he has Saruman finding out from the crebain where the fellowship was in record time, plus, it assumes that S knows about the Balrog. Gandalf didn't even know about the Balrog! PJ practically gives it all away backed up by illogical assumptions to a "dumb" audience (like he does with a good chunk of his movie)

PRH pointed out many obvious things...PJ straying from the book created more confusion and illogic then had he not exercised his foolish "vision".

[PRH]

It a fairly sound plan on Saruman's part if my first interpretation is correct and Mr. Ordesky's is wrong (yes, Ordesky is the New Line executive - he was very very much a part of the filmmaking).

[aragil]

Thorin- in the movie it is the nature of the mountain- Saruman's is beseeching the Mountain to help him, Gandalf is beseeching the mountain to stay asleep.

[joxy]

Originally posted by Thorin
PJ practically gives it all away backed up by illogical assumptions to a "dumb" audience (like he does with a good chunk of his movie)

There have been so many references here to what people think the audiences could have accepted, understood, and enjoyed. They, along with PJ, have sadly underestimated people's intelligence, as this suggests. With a little more respect for those audiences we could have had an even better film.

[Talimon]

I don't think Saruman had any intention of them going into Moria. The scene where he is "speaking" Gandalf's thoughts shows that his intention is to scare the Fellowship from going into Moria, thus forcing them to head South. Also, I may have misinterpreted that scene, but in the book I always got the impression that there was some "other" force at work on the mountain. There is that reference by one of the Fellowship saying how Saurons hand has grown long indeed if he can call a storm on Caradhras. Gandalf, out of all people, acknowledges this. This in my opinion is meant to show how Saruman has fallen under Saurons influence.

PRH pointed out many obvious things...PJ straying from the book created more confusion and illogic then had he not exercised his foolish "vision".

Thorin, I beg you to read PRH's post... If anything he is criticizing Mark Ordesky, thus his last line being:

I think Mr. Ordesky is a little cornfused.

[PRH]

Originally posted by Talimon
Thorin, I beg you to read PRH's post... If anything he is criticizing Mark Ordesky

I basically like Mark - most of what he says everywhere else. I just think he's gotta be mistaken on this point.

As for Thorin, every little comment questioning some aspect of the movie turns into another reason PJ blows. I figure about 3 more posts before this turns into yet another 'Arwen at the Ford' thread.

[Arvedui]

This will not concern Arwen at the Ford, so two to go.
First of all, I have always imagined that Caradhras was acting on its own. Thus PJ's interpretation was not to my liking.
I can, however, understand Mr. Ordesky's comment:
Gandalf would never lead the Fellowship through the Gap of Rohan, because of the fall of Saruman. That leaves Moria.
In the event that Pippin had not made their presence clear to every inhabitant in Moria, I believe that the Balrog (Maia) would have senced the presence of Gandalf (Maia) and therefore have turned up anyhow. In Saruman's reasoning one must add the fact that he knows Gandalf, and know his powers and his loyalty. He knows Gandalf will fight the Balrog himself, if for no other reason, then to keep the Ring safe. The key here is the mission of the Ringbearer. Gandalf knows that, and he knows that he is the only one who can stand up against a Balrog and have a slightest chance at winning. And Saruman knows this as well.

[Nóm]

Arvedui,
While I agree that Saruman was probaby wise enough to know that Gandalf would put himself between the Balrog and the ring bearer, there is just no way that Saruman could be sure that any of them would get out of Moria alive. Chances were very much against it.
I think this is a bigger gamble than Saruman would be willing to take.
I doubt he could have known the details of the circumstances in Moria, such as the location of the encounter: the bridge.

I figure if Gandalf hadn't been on the bridge when he fought balrog that the entire fellowship would have been destroyed.

Unless Legolas decided to run for his life.
Did everyone notice that Legolas stayed in back of the group until that Balrog showed up?

[aragil]

I just thought I'd say that I can't stand Arwen at the ford. Anyone agree with me?

[Thorin]

I agree! You know it just frosts me that PJ had to go and put that stupid Arwen scene or three in there and spoil the whole thing.... Hmmm. I believe I've been set up.

[Talimon]

Originally posted by aragil
I just thought I'd say that I can't stand Arwen at the ford. Anyone agree with me?

Aragil going off-topic on a completely random tangent...? Something smells fishy here...