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Illuin
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  • No, I'd say that all races are about the same, at least when it comes to caring about what interests them and ignoring the other stuff unless it knocks on their door. So, at least towards that subject, they employ common sense at about the same frequency. The elves got better at leaving people alone, but they suffer from a lack of perspective. Anyways, I shall take your answers to my questions as ---> "Yes."
    Since all of the information on the subject is just speculation by elves, they don't mention much about the parts of the world that they don't care about.

    Ha…true indeed. They are a bit haughty aren’t they? But are we simply jealous of those with common sense?
    Grab a gal or a gang and meet you? *attempts to stifle a scoff* Ahem. But sure. I, at the least, could most probably be there. I'll see what my roommate's doing. Or I'll check out the buses. Tell me when you're going, when you know, and I can steel myself for socialization. *insert rolling eyed dude*

    But towards the story, what about this? ---> Tolkien writes that elves eventually become the fairies that are in all kinds of other stories. When is the story set? Valinor is America. The Doors Of Night are apparently invisible or hidden. The Ainur are all hiding out as humans or are invisible. Maybe it's even the future, and Mel inserts his followers into the robots. :rolleyes:

    Doesn't seem like the vibe we're going for. So, I shall forget about the elves turning into fairies and concern myself with how the main events shall go down. Since all of the information on the subject is just speculation by elves, they don't mention much about the parts of the world that they don't care about. All of the action is taking place in and around Valinor, then? The humans and few Dwarves left in Middle-Earth would be unaware of such things?
    Just come down to this one; it's awesome. Diane and I have gone for the last 11 years. We have a crew of 9 that are going this year. Grab a gal, or a gang and meet us. It would be fun.
    Hm. I should check out that one that is closer to myself. I still don't have a job up here yet. It would be fun, and I'd continue pushing myself at the hospital people when it's over.
    Understood. I gots to get into the epic storytelling frame of mind, where crazy stuff happens. Anyways, your thoughts on what happens to Ainur and elves are, then, that, even though they're supposed to be tied to existence, they don't all vanish at the same time as Mel? Eru says that he didn't really mean it when he said that they'd be tied to it?
    Agreed; as I too am a downtrodden cynic myself. But do we dare stray far from the Professor? That was my point. He did bear some nice gifts.
    Ah, but I could, as a matter of course, pretend. Write up a pretty little story about irredeemable evil finally as well as triumphantly vanquished, where people actually learn lessons and somehow remember and don't invent new and convenient interpretations of them. *insert rolling eyed dude*
    Hm! It is a take on Eru that I hadn't considered. Still. Sounds pretty hopeless. Sure, Mel caused lots of evil, but some would have shown up without him, if free will is involved. I don't know enough about Eru's personality to know if he was that crazy of an idealist. "If I show them. If I graphically demonstrate. If I let it painfully draw out. I know that they wouldn't listen if I just told them, but this way! This way! Has to work! Right? If not, I give up and will follow my old dad's advice and take up the old record store business. They can repeat history all they want."

    I am no religious expert. Is there some religion with the idea that, after the end of the world, people (or whatever they become) will still have free will but will have learned to never be evil again? That doesn't sound like a human, to myself. Sounds like a crazy dream. Now, if free will is taken away or just tweaked a bit, yes, it could make sense. Not otherwise.
    Quote "What, just another, "Eru did it. He saved all of the spirits that he wasn't overly disappointed with. So that we have a happy ending."

    A happy ending?

    I would say “a new understanding”; not a happy ending. Tolkien was a very spiritual guy, and was in combat in the first World War. I think his vision was different; and his religious background (though I know he hated allegory and metaphor) at least in some way paralleled his writings.

    My view is that the drama of the First Music and first Four Ages was like a “College Course”; or an “on the job training” eon. It was a lesson. Eru doesn't want to teach this class twice. Eru wants to prevent evil from rising "again" among his Children (including the Ainur; "who all have been given the right to rebel"). And now; since they have all witnessed the tutorial presentation of good and evil play out for thousands of years, along with the consequences….maybe there is hope.

    Since Eru obviously foreknew the rise of evil and the harvest of suffering that it would produce, He opted to allow Melkor and evil to exist for thousands of years to benefit Elves and Men; and the Valar as well . The long drawn-out drama of evil and it’s consequences played out and experienced first hand over many millennia would give the Elves, Men, and Ainur an intimate and detailed understanding of good and evil (along with the long term repercussions); which in turn (hopefully) should prevent the rise of a rebellion, like that of Melkor a second time after Ea and Arda have passed away. A world of "freewill" coexisting in harmony with a world that is "evil-free" is indeed a conundrum; yet it is entirely possible (at least maybe in our tale) that it is Eru’s long term goal when all is said and done. And....:p, I wouldn’t exactly call that a happy ending….more like; "Do you get it now?" :D
    Plenty of those.

    Of course having a body imperils them. They can be killed. As for the loss of wisdom and knowledge, it still sounds like coming out of a sensory deprivation tank. Their minds wouldn't be as open. The knowledge that a bunch of Wargs are tracking you and would like to eat you, while it might only be in the back of the mind, can lead to less objective choices. A lack of knowledge equals that, in physical form, they aren't able to go on any more convenient spy runs? But no large deal. I'll flow with it.

    Actually, that reminded me of an idea that I had about Sauron. Ainur are only able to take forms that are related to their natures. It was easy. Didn't take much spiritual power. Was the equivalent to putting on some clothes. When his body got destroyed with Numenor, why was he unable to put on his prettier clothes? Did that defeat make him go over an edge that destroyed his natural and prettier nature? I don't buy the idea that he just lost some power due to sleeping through the fall of Numenor so that he didn't take his clothes off to avoid it. Putting on clothes doesn't take much power. Or can it only be explained by saying, "Eru did it. Sauron doesn't get to trick people by looking pretty anymore." It is related to the subject via the point that the Istari were forced into the forms of old men, which may or may not have been anything like their true natures and could have been a distraction and drain on them.

    I was merely wondering if I was incorrect about Manwe being the only one to talk with Eru. Sure, I don't see why others couldn't try it out. It just seems as if Manwe is the only one that Eru deigns to talk to.

    Towards other Glorfindelities, I am unaware. I haven't been able to find all of these The History Of Middle Earth books yet, and I wasn't especially concerned with the Glorfindel debate, since I knew that I would come up with my own answer whenever I got around to that book. :rolleyes:

    Towards what happens to human spirits, was there not a section in the Void called Eru's Halls? Or was that the entire Void? Either way, I would think that the human spirits would be out of Mel's reach. If no, come on, how could the not overly intelligent Turin elfbane stay mad at the guy? :rolleyes: Also, does Tolkien write that the humans are warming up their voices for the next capitalized Song? I suppose that it makes sense, and they would at least have some time to learn about the Ainuric natures we're going with. I always figured that the Ainur who stayed out in the Void could have been making all kinds of other planets and races out there. Why not? They'd get bored. Ah, but I shall not include such. Nobody wants the planet of Eagloids flying out of nowhere to save the day. :rolleyes:

    Towards other races and what happens to them, I'd just need to figure out the aftermath of the battle. The world and poor Melkor are destroyed. The Ainur and elves, at least, are tied to it. I would think that they would all cease to be. Mel is definitely destroyed. Why wouldn't the rest of them be? What, just another, "Eru did it. He saved all of the spirits that he wasn't overly disappointed with. So that we have a happy ending."
    Yeah, Whoops. That was some funny stuff; lots of fun. Anyway;

    As far as that passage in Unfinished Tales; it does state that when clothed in the flesh it would “imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge”. Of course this isn’t permanent, but only when they are in the flesh.

    Nice sentence there at the end of the first paragraph; it appears at first to be a run-on sentence, but analyzing the grammatical structure closely…it is not. Nice. :D

    Also, as far as Glorfindel being able to communicate with Eru; I only said that “perhaps” he could; only to illustrate the fact he is essentially Ainur when the flesh is gone and his “true” nature is revealed. Also; I'm not entirely sure that Tolkien specifically stated that Glorfindel was actually re-embodied; and was the only Elf permitted to leave Valinor after that occurred. I know he wrestled with it, just not sure if the matter was fully resolved. Either Glorfindel’s fëa was permitted to leave the Halls of Mandos without being re-embodied (i.e. remaining in his true nature); or Glorfindel was re-embodied and was the only Elf permitted to leave Valinor. I find the former more interesting, but if Tolkien resolved the issue with Glorfindel, we should stick to that. Have to skim though my Peoples of Middle-Earth again. Anyway, getting sidetracked here :rolleyes:.

    But, as you say, it is true (at least within the dimension of Ea; where our familiar little group of Ainur chose to enter into) that Manwë seems to be the only one so far who directly communicates with Eru (obviously they all could before they entered Ea). Which brings up another little loose end we need to tie up.

    The confines of Ea concerning Elves and Men (and Dwarves). Elves seem to be confined to the dimension (or realm) of Ea until the end; before the Second Music. They heal in the Halls of Mandos and can be re-embodied into themselves again and live again with their people. Men have a short stay in the Halls and then apparently actually leave the realm of Ea and go beyond it (i.e. outside The Universe) into a different dimension (perhaps into Eru’s realm, preparing for the Second Music; just as the Ainur prepared individually for some time before the First Music). According to the tradition of the Dwarves; they remain in the Halls as the Elves do, but do not seem to have the option of being re-embodied until the re-making of Arda.

    It would seem then, that Men are the first of the Children to exist in their true Ainur-like nature; which would make it very plausible for Turin (and not a mighty Elf like Fëanor) to oust Melkor.

    Just trying to tie up loose ends here before continuing.

    Any thoughts?
    And Whoops that I was busy writing all kinds of silly things elsewhere. Via your quote, I still don't see that the Istari lost any knowledge. It merely looks as if they're saying that, with bodies, they won't be as detached. I hear that jumping into a sensory deprivation tank is quite helpful for brainstorming. Sounds cool. Less to distract you. Of course, going from a spiritual body with a personality that seems to merely be a specialized shard of a thought or two of Eru's to a physical body with all of those pesky chemicals and hormones and fight or flight instincts and having to work your brain around such unfamiliar difficulties as the inability to see through rocks or withstand heat or cold and having your brain focused on the unfamiliar task of helping a bunch of lesser beings...*takes a breath* ...is a bit worse than coming out of a sensory deprivation tank.

    Towards Glorfindel, huh. I always thought that Manwe was the only one who could talk to Eru. That seemed to be his main use, as if only he could, or he was the only one that Eru liked enough. The Valar types could creepily as well as psychically talk to each other, and I think that elves could do that, ever now and then, too, so he probably could. Anyways, I mostly figure that everyone would be in that other world, but Glorfindel was just especially striking because he has above average spiritual energy. When it comes to anyone having the Ainuric type power, I agree that it makes sense, but I'd just point out that the Ainur came in all kinds of power levels, and that some had crazy unique powers that made them the best at one thing in particular. I don't see why anyone else's spirits would be different. But then, I would think that the elves would have powers of a more elemental bent, Dwarves of particular Dwarvish qualities and crafts, but humans were supposed to be the most Mel-like, so they'd have a share in everything and be generally awesome.

    For where I disagree with you (at least for now?), I'd have no huge problem with just going with your ideas, anyway. Yay for flexibility. Also, I thank you for the compliment, but my specialties are plot twists and eccentric personalities. As a matter of course, I can always try my best and churn out draft after draft for approval. :rolleyes:
    Oh, sorry Nodnarb, didn't even see your little post there amidst my blathering. Hello to you in return friend.:)
    Sorry Yay….been a bit busy.

    Quote: "Continue with your ideas about the afterlife. I haven't read much of Tolkien's ideas on the subject."

    That’s because there isn’t much (other than vague references regarding Elves and the Halls of Mandos). Even in "Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth", there are only vague theological speculations given, and no specific details. I believe Tolkien intentionally kept this subject unclear and elusive to entice the imagination of the reader.

    Quote: Were the Istari limited power or knowledge-wise? They lost knowledge when they jumped into physical forms? I was unaware."

    Yes; here’s a quote from Unfinished Tales:

    "For they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and weariness coming from the flesh."

    So summing up my faux mythology concerning the afterlife; the Ainur live in the world (Ea), but are not originally of the world; whereas the Children are originally of the world, but upon death - when their raiment of flesh is shed - they reveal their true nature; which is essentially Ainur, and can live in both worlds at once as the Ainur presently do. Here’s a little quote from The Fellowship that may justify this:

    'I thought that I saw a white figure that shone and did not grow dim like the others. Was that Glorfindel then?'
    'Yes you saw him for a moment as he is upon the other side: one of the mighty of the Firstborn. He is an Elf-lord of a house of princes.'"

    This term “other side” obviously doesn’t imply a “physical” location (i.e. Valinor), but seems to imply a different dimension (i.e. spiritual, Ainur-like). It seems that Glorfindel lives in two worlds at once. He lives in the world but is not of the world. He was an Elf, but in this situation; he certainly demonstrates Ainur-like qualities and abilities. He communicates verbally with his fellow kin, and perhaps on that “other side” converses spiritually with Eru; as Manwe does. Also; as with the Ainur; there are greater and lesser of the Children when they shed their flesh. Valar and Maiar parallel the Firstborn and Secondborn - Elves and Men (maybe the hierarchy should be reversed with the Elves and Men, eh?) :D.

    Anyway, just playing around with some of my ideas here. Maybe, since you are obviously a very exciting storyteller, you could spearhead the plot and direction of the tale, and I can provide some interesting in-depth mythology and detail surrounding it. Yay? Nay?
    Were the Istari limited power or knowledge-wise? They lost knowledge when they jumped into physical forms? I was unaware. Towards power, I thought that they were merely ordered to keep things quiet, but that they were always able to use whatever creepy and magical powerses they had. Mayhaps no.

    Anyways, I agree with the idea that every race had the potential to employ all kinds of creepy magic. I just don't see how showing up in skin made them unable to employ it. The Ainur were made aware in the beginning about most things. The elves learned a lot from living with the Ainur, but not everything, which is why they weren't as great. Those that didn't go to Valinor or weren't descended from those didn't do as much with magic. Eol is an exception because he got an asteroid, which is a rock from the Void (presumably). It most probably contained a procrastinating yet informative spirit.

    Anybody could be awesome with magic, but only the Ainur really know what they're doing, unfortunately. I don't see how knowledge would have already been their's if they were born in spirit form, though.

    Continue with your ideas about the afterlife. I haven't read much of Tolkien's ideas on the subject.
    Ideas and a disjointed timeline:

    Mel somehow influences a tiff between Arien and Tilion. One idea: Large chunks of Mel's spirit went into Arda. Besides holding the world hostage, bits could be programmed (as Wosish Pukel men are) to spring into action at opportune moments. Bits of him could be part of the composition of the sun and moon's boats or of the doors to be destroyed. Is it just the earth that he's a part of, or everything? Fluffy clouds whispering lies?

    They're closer than usual to each other when they are somehow trapped.

    Different people notice at different times that the sun isn't coming up at its usual time, but no large deal is made for a while.

    The Ainur of time who attached those ropes to the sun and moon might come up to investigate, making sure that one of their impish cousins with crazy ideas of employing ropes for time travel or deja vu hasn't been messing things up.

    They get gutted. Their ropes are stolen. Now Mel has his own unbreakable bonds. Yay for revenge!

    Proceed with clandestine takeover. Tulkas first. There could be other spies of Mel's who have been getting complacent in Valinor. They don't have to be the deleted Valar, Makar and Measse. Orome hunted giant monsters in Valinor. He used to hunt them all over the place. Were they gathered up and taken to Valinor to make Middle Earth safer, or did he just kill all of them, and he keeps and allows a few to breed in Valinor, just for fun? Anyways, those guys would be eager to help, but Orome and any elves who hang out with him would know all about these things. Which is why Mel totally employs his old dragonish trick of calling evil spirits from the Void to inhabit things. The monsters would be smarter and could gain all kinds of creepy powerses. A good distraction, at least.

    Then there's the cult that Sauron made to himself in the east someplace. I've got a priest type character from that cult who learns a bit about Mel, finds that he was a bit more impressive than Sauron, and could have done plenty of evangelizing. That, combined with the idea of the Ainur from the Void who creepily as well as psychically convinces this one guy that he's Eru and that he'd enjoy having Mel, lots of heroes, and epic tales emerging again could be a plan for gaining a decent army of humans. Hm. How far into the future is this happening? Mel's followers with tanks? :rolleyes:

    The Ainur fighting with a bunch of humans could easily spur the unleashed Numenoreans to help them out.

    The Ainur would eventually find that the Arien and Tilion are trapped. Or mayhaps the bad guys will have made a slip-up someplace, and some plans are noticed early. I know that my weaselly little Balrog character wouldn't mind playing both ends against the middle.

    Which reminds myself of another source for minions. The Dark Lands. I figured that they were Dark because they were inhabited by lots more giant spiders. There could be plenty of other stuff hiding out there, too. Volcanoes, what might be Ents, and pygmies are the only things mentioned over there. They could also just be called Dark because they have some nice and volcanic black sand on the beaches, but that's not as cool. :rolleyes:

    Another thing to consider about the defenses of the Ainur: Over time, even if they aren't expending as much power as Mel did, they'd be getting weaker. And out of practice. Plenty of stronger Ainur could be unleashed from the Void. Good ones and bad ones. With Mel's group coming first and the more pacifistic and uninterested in all material things showing up to help turn the tide, of course.

    I'm picturing the only trouble being the missing sun and moon, then something else comes to their attention, they figure that the threat is becoming plenty serious, elves and random Ainur are being sent out to investigate and defend, the Valar types talk at their Ring Of Doom, an envoy is sent to what they figure to be the source of the problems but isn't, since Mel is keeping himself out of sight, Manwe hasn't heard anything from Eru, Aule's off inventing a bulldozer, Ulmo's rallying troops of his own or depositing dreams in the brains of the favorites that he's been spying on, Mandos is singing the doom song.
    Concerning where Turin has been and/or where he comes from in JRRT's prophecy.......

    As far as some ideas I've kicked around with this subject, I am thinking in reverse here. We have the Ainur, who were divine beings from the start; and at least relatively speaking, had infinite knowledge “relative” to the Children of Eru. Their intrinsic essence and actual “being” from the get go was laid bare and uninhibited. The potency and potential of their existence was in full bloom right out of the gate.

    But then we see an entirely different angle; the Istari. Here we have divine beings; Maiar, sent to Middle-Earth in the form of “Children of Eru” (albeit old children). These Maiar (Istari) as written by Tolkien, when “incarnated” into the form of Men (or whatever) had to adjust and “relearn” the knowledge that they once had. Obviously, these divine spirits; when incarnated as the Children (imprisoned in a “chunk of meat"), were subject to considerable limitations when compared to their previous abilities.

    Here is where my “thinking in reverse” comes into play. Let’s look at the mortals (Men). My idea for this is that the Children had (and have always had) the equal intrinsic power (given by Eru) of the Ainur. Only their “entry into Ea” was opposite of the Ainur. The Ainur have essentially been given all, and have ultimately (and fundamentally) known everything from the beginning...... however; (since Turin is involved in the prophecy, I’m focusing on the "Secondborn" here) the Children came into the world clothed in that “chunk of meat”; as it were... with their divine knowlege and ability diminished and inhibited by the “mask” of that fleshly vessel they were encased (or rather imprisoned) in. But of course, they finally experience the “fullness of their being and power"; equal to that of the Ainur AFTER they had passed on. Turin slaying Morgoth wouldn't seem so outlandish if that were the nature of things.

    Before I get into some of my thoughts regarding this "realm" (or as we would call it; the afterlife) of the Secondborn, I just wanted give you details of some of the mythology I've been mulling over (we have to get deep if this is to carry any weight). I am randomly throwing out mere fragments of ideas here, and these are “very general” thoughts which are related to the realm of Turin before he returns to Ea. Maybe if we both just throw out ideas, we can gradually come up with some solid, coherent direction as time goes on.
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